CDZ The Iranian nuclear deal: a deeper look

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Reported abuses falling outside of the laws of the Islamic Republic that have been condemned include the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988, and the widespread use of torture to extract repudiations by prisoners of their cause and comrades on video for propaganda purposes.[3] Also condemned has been firebombings of newspaper offices and attacks on political protesters by "quasi-official organs of repression," particularly "Hezbollahi," and the murder of dozens of government opponents in the 1990s, allegedly by "rogue elements" of the government.

Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s human rights record "has deteriorated markedly," according to Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants "read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced."[7][8][9] In October 2012 the United Nations human rights office stated Iranian authorities had engaged in a “severe clampdown” on journalists and human rights advocates.[10]

Chain murders of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Chain Murders of Iran[1][2] (قتلهای زنجیره ای), or Serial Murders, were a series of murders and disappearances from 1988 to 1998 by Iranian government operatives of Iranian dissident intellectuals[3][4] who had been critical of the Islamic Republic system in some way.[5]

The victims included more than 80 writers, translators, poets, political activists, and ordinary citizens,[6][7] and were killed by a variety of means—car crashes, stabbings, shootings in staged robberies, injections with potassium to simulate a heart attack—in what some believe was an attempt to avoid connection between them.[8] The pattern of murders did not come to light until late 1998 when Dariush Forouhar, his wife Parvaneh Eskandari Forouhar, and three dissident writers, were murdered in the span of two months.[9]

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I do not believe that this is the case: these claims are made by people who look at the deal and ask themselves: “does this hurt Iran more than it helps it?” This not the way we should be thinking. This results from the “us vs. them” mentality that has been cultivated in our society by the two party system, which I will explain my opinions on in a future essay. This deal was not about gaining an advantage over Iran, but about cooperating with it and benefitting both countries and the world as a result.

It is not a 2 Party system problem. Both parties for nearly 36 years have considered Iran an enemy of Freedom and a State Sponsor of Terror. I'd have to look it up but a letter was sent to Obama warning him to not cut a bad deal with 350 Congressional Signatures to not buckle in negotiations with Iran. Many Dems signed that letter.

367 House Members Send Letter on Iran Nuclear Negotiations to President Obama House Committee on Foreign Affairs - Ed Royce Chairman
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/sites/republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/files/03.20.15 - Iran Letter - POTUS.pdf

Our problem with Iran began under Carter. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown in the late 70's. The Shah is one of many brutal dictators which is common to the region. As it seems only Dictators can keep any country there stable. They don't do it by playing nice, but this was a Religious take over by Radicals in the Islamic Religion. When they took over they seized our embassy and held our people hostage for over a year. For 444 days our people were held. At the time, people were calling for Carter to go to War with Iran. I was one of them back then saying the same. To that point, an attack on our embassy is an attack on our nation and is a declaration of War.

Iran hostage crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Another point to Iran. We had oil shortages here as a result. Gas lines back then, and this is the reason for the Strategic Oil Reserve we have today.

Since Iran was a thorn in our side, Russia assisted Iran as they do today. More so then as we were still active in a Cold War. The Cold War shifted alliances in the region, and we backed Iraq more so for payback to Iran for holding our people in the Iran Iraq War. We also assisted the people in Afghanistan as Russia had it's on Vietnam there trying to dominate the region. To ensuing Wars were engaged. Iran then began to mine the Straits of Harmuse.....in a attempt to strangle the World's Oil supplies.

Operation Earnest Will - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We came into the fray to escort these tankers. I was there. They were throwing mines into water off the tankers and using small boats and frigates to directly challenge our mission. Not to mention Iranian jets on attack vectors to our ships. I went to GQ many a time with missiles on the rail ready to shoot down these aircraft. This eventually led to a FIGHT in which we sunk their ships, and destroyed their oil rigs.

At the same time Iraq hit the Stark.
USS Stark incident - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Roberts hits a mine.
USS Samuel B. Roberts FFG-58 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Our response.
Operation Praying Mantis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And direct military action against Iranian assets.

The Iranian frigate Sahand attacked by aircraft of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing 11 after the guided missile frigateUSS Samuel B. Roberts struck an Iranian mine

During the same time frame.........

1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
While Iran denied involvement..........of course........they helped KILL OUR MARINES in Lebanon. As they support the Hezballah there and always have in actions against Israel.

To be continued...........this is just laying the ground for the History of the problem with Iran........which is necessary to understand WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH..............

This is how it began...........

I did not say that the problem with Iran arose directly from the two party system. I was merely pointing out similarities. and the most important thing about this deal is that it is a step towards reverse all those years of hostile relationships. It is better to turn an enemy into an ally than to defeat it.

My purpose is clear. To show the history of a Rouge country and a history of why they are not to be trusted. Under the current leadership of Iran, they will NEVER BE AN ALLY. EVER.

They have a history of killing our people. Taking them hostage. Supporting Terror around the globe. Killing our people in Afghanistan through proxy support of the Taliban even now. Breaking UN Resolution after UN resolution. In short. They have a history of LIES and DECEIT to the World. Therefore, people like me don't think it's a good idea to make deals with a KNOWN LIAR.................

My internet screwed up and deleted have my other history lesson. To avoid the history lesson, do you at least agree that they have been causing Problems in the region and in the world for over 3 decades?

Second question. Do you agree that they are a State Sponsor of Terror?

3. If you were cutting the deal..........would you have DEMANDED the return of 4 Americans currently held by Iran.

4. Why do they need Nuclear Power? They sit on a sea of oil and can easily produce power via other means. There is no critical need to power their electrical grid with Nuclear Power, and I would remind you that we haven't built Nuclear Power plants here in decades. So why is it so important for them to have it there as they say.

5. Where in the deal is there a purpose to stop supporting elements like the Taliban, and Hezballah?

6. Why was it so important for Russia to have arms sales in part of the agreement? Specifically, the selling of cruise missiles to Iran at a later date that could be used against our Navy and other Navies Operating in the region. My point..........Russia sells them everything already. Russia knows they are a thorn in our side. And Russia does this in the NEW COLD WAR that is going on now.

7. Where in the agreement is the clause to make Peace with our ally Israel? And to stop supplying weapons in the region that constantly attack them. Even though ineffective, they are constant attacks to Israel supplied by Iran. Will they recognize Israel's right to exist?

8. They are going to release up to 150 Billion dollars from removal of Sanctions. This will not go to the people there. It will be used by the Gov't to increase it's tech and weapons technology. It will also allow Western companies to provide possible parts that could be used to expand it's ability to make the bomb.

Enough questions for now...............Thank you.

1.) yes, they have been stirring up trouble and have been known to lie in the past, but that was from the position of an oppressed and marginalized nation full of desperate people. eliminating the reason for the troublemakers to make trouble will make them stop making trouble. besides,

2.) yes they are, but this is one of the reasons why the deal is good. countries only sponsor terrorism because they are ignored and feel that it is the only way to be heard. by allowing Iran to join the global community, we are eliminating the cause of terrorist sponsorship.

3.) yes, I would. I believe that Iran would have been happy too, as the only reason to keep them there was the same reason they sponsored terrorism. Iran is ready to move past that, and this deal allows them to do so.

4.) they do not need nuclear power, I never said they did. however, oil is not a sustainable energy source. this is separate from the treaty, but I think that nuclear power is one of the more promising solutions tot he energy crisis.

5.) one deal cannot eliminate terrorism altogether. that is a separate matter. I may post an essay that I have prepared on that subject soon.

6.) again, the crisis with Russia is another issue. Russia was not involved in the deal. you cannot expect one treaty to solve all the world's problems. this agreement is just a large step forward.

7.) the deal does not have to directly state that. as I said before, Iran is ready to move past that. their people want to join the modern world community and the only reason they have allowed their government to continue stirring up trouble is because they were desperate to be heard. again, eliminating the cause of the problem is the best way to solve it.

8.) I disagree. of course they are not going to just dump a pile of cash on their citizens, but I do not believe that they will use this money to cause trouble. besides, Iran will most likely use this money to invest and build their economy.

 

[eagle1462010]

Those in Iran who oppose the Gov't disappear.................there is a history under the tyranny of Iran's Gov't.....................I'm sure there are many there who like it to go away..................

Just as I'm sure there were nice people in Germany during WWII.................and Japan for that matter.................

The money going to Iran will be held by the Gov't for their own purposes...........it will not be handed out to the people.............it will be handed out only to those who support the tyranny there.....................

And that group is hell bent on getting a Nuke.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Reported abuses falling outside of the laws of the Islamic Republic that have been condemned include the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988, and the widespread use of torture to extract repudiations by prisoners of their cause and comrades on video for propaganda purposes.[3] Also condemned has been firebombings of newspaper offices and attacks on political protesters by "quasi-official organs of repression," particularly "Hezbollahi," and the murder of dozens of government opponents in the 1990s, allegedly by "rogue elements" of the government.

Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s human rights record "has deteriorated markedly," according to Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants "read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced."[7][8][9] In October 2012 the United Nations human rights office stated Iranian authorities had engaged in a “severe clampdown” on journalists and human rights advocates.[10]

Chain murders of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Chain Murders of Iran[1][2] (قتلهای زنجیره ای), or Serial Murders, were a series of murders and disappearances from 1988 to 1998 by Iranian government operatives of Iranian dissident intellectuals[3][4] who had been critical of the Islamic Republic system in some way.[5]

The victims included more than 80 writers, translators, poets, political activists, and ordinary citizens,[6][7] and were killed by a variety of means—car crashes, stabbings, shootings in staged robberies, injections with potassium to simulate a heart attack—in what some believe was an attempt to avoid connection between them.[8] The pattern of murders did not come to light until late 1998 when Dariush Forouhar, his wife Parvaneh Eskandari Forouhar, and three dissident writers, were murdered in the span of two months.[9]

you are not bringing up any new points. you are just restating the flawed argument that I have already addressed.

 

[eagle1462010]

I do not believe that this is the case: these claims are made by people who look at the deal and ask themselves: “does this hurt Iran more than it helps it?” This not the way we should be thinking. This results from the “us vs. them” mentality that has been cultivated in our society by the two party system, which I will explain my opinions on in a future essay. This deal was not about gaining an advantage over Iran, but about cooperating with it and benefitting both countries and the world as a result.

It is not a 2 Party system problem. Both parties for nearly 36 years have considered Iran an enemy of Freedom and a State Sponsor of Terror. I'd have to look it up but a letter was sent to Obama warning him to not cut a bad deal with 350 Congressional Signatures to not buckle in negotiations with Iran. Many Dems signed that letter.

367 House Members Send Letter on Iran Nuclear Negotiations to President Obama House Committee on Foreign Affairs - Ed Royce Chairman
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/sites/republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/files/03.20.15 - Iran Letter - POTUS.pdf

Our problem with Iran began under Carter. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown in the late 70's. The Shah is one of many brutal dictators which is common to the region. As it seems only Dictators can keep any country there stable. They don't do it by playing nice, but this was a Religious take over by Radicals in the Islamic Religion. When they took over they seized our embassy and held our people hostage for over a year. For 444 days our people were held. At the time, people were calling for Carter to go to War with Iran. I was one of them back then saying the same. To that point, an attack on our embassy is an attack on our nation and is a declaration of War.

Iran hostage crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Another point to Iran. We had oil shortages here as a result. Gas lines back then, and this is the reason for the Strategic Oil Reserve we have today.

Since Iran was a thorn in our side, Russia assisted Iran as they do today. More so then as we were still active in a Cold War. The Cold War shifted alliances in the region, and we backed Iraq more so for payback to Iran for holding our people in the Iran Iraq War. We also assisted the people in Afghanistan as Russia had it's on Vietnam there trying to dominate the region. To ensuing Wars were engaged. Iran then began to mine the Straits of Harmuse.....in a attempt to strangle the World's Oil supplies.

Operation Earnest Will - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We came into the fray to escort these tankers. I was there. They were throwing mines into water off the tankers and using small boats and frigates to directly challenge our mission. Not to mention Iranian jets on attack vectors to our ships. I went to GQ many a time with missiles on the rail ready to shoot down these aircraft. This eventually led to a FIGHT in which we sunk their ships, and destroyed their oil rigs.

At the same time Iraq hit the Stark.
USS Stark incident - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Roberts hits a mine.
USS Samuel B. Roberts FFG-58 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Our response.
Operation Praying Mantis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And direct military action against Iranian assets.

The Iranian frigate Sahand attacked by aircraft of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing 11 after the guided missile frigateUSS Samuel B. Roberts struck an Iranian mine

During the same time frame.........

1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
While Iran denied involvement..........of course........they helped KILL OUR MARINES in Lebanon. As they support the Hezballah there and always have in actions against Israel.

To be continued...........this is just laying the ground for the History of the problem with Iran........which is necessary to understand WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH..............

This is how it began...........

I did not say that the problem with Iran arose directly from the two party system. I was merely pointing out similarities. and the most important thing about this deal is that it is a step towards reverse all those years of hostile relationships. It is better to turn an enemy into an ally than to defeat it.

My purpose is clear. To show the history of a Rouge country and a history of why they are not to be trusted. Under the current leadership of Iran, they will NEVER BE AN ALLY. EVER.

They have a history of killing our people. Taking them hostage. Supporting Terror around the globe. Killing our people in Afghanistan through proxy support of the Taliban even now. Breaking UN Resolution after UN resolution. In short. They have a history of LIES and DECEIT to the World. Therefore, people like me don't think it's a good idea to make deals with a KNOWN LIAR.................

My internet screwed up and deleted have my other history lesson. To avoid the history lesson, do you at least agree that they have been causing Problems in the region and in the world for over 3 decades?

Second question. Do you agree that they are a State Sponsor of Terror?

3. If you were cutting the deal..........would you have DEMANDED the return of 4 Americans currently held by Iran.

4. Why do they need Nuclear Power? They sit on a sea of oil and can easily produce power via other means. There is no critical need to power their electrical grid with Nuclear Power, and I would remind you that we haven't built Nuclear Power plants here in decades. So why is it so important for them to have it there as they say.

5. Where in the deal is there a purpose to stop supporting elements like the Taliban, and Hezballah?

6. Why was it so important for Russia to have arms sales in part of the agreement? Specifically, the selling of cruise missiles to Iran at a later date that could be used against our Navy and other Navies Operating in the region. My point..........Russia sells them everything already. Russia knows they are a thorn in our side. And Russia does this in the NEW COLD WAR that is going on now.

7. Where in the agreement is the clause to make Peace with our ally Israel? And to stop supplying weapons in the region that constantly attack them. Even though ineffective, they are constant attacks to Israel supplied by Iran. Will they recognize Israel's right to exist?

8. They are going to release up to 150 Billion dollars from removal of Sanctions. This will not go to the people there. It will be used by the Gov't to increase it's tech and weapons technology. It will also allow Western companies to provide possible parts that could be used to expand it's ability to make the bomb.

Enough questions for now...............Thank you.

1.) yes, they have been stirring up trouble and have been known to lie in the past, but that was from the position of an oppressed and marginalized nation full of desperate people. eliminating the reason for the troublemakers to make trouble will make them stop making trouble. besides,

2.) yes they are, but this is one of the reasons why the deal is good. countries only sponsor terrorism because they are ignored and feel that it is the only way to be heard. by allowing Iran to join the global community, we are eliminating the cause of terrorist sponsorship.

3.) yes, I would. I believe that Iran would have been happy too, as the only reason to keep them there was the same reason they sponsored terrorism. Iran is ready to move past that, and this deal allows them to do so.

4.) they do not need nuclear power, I never said they did. however, oil is not a sustainable energy source. this is separate from the treaty, but I think that nuclear power is one of the more promising solutions tot he energy crisis.

5.) one deal cannot eliminate terrorism altogether. that is a separate matter. I may post an essay that I have prepared on that subject soon.

6.) again, the crisis with Russia is another issue. Russia was not involved in the deal. you cannot expect one treaty to solve all the world's problems. this agreement is just a large step forward.

7.) the deal does not have to directly state that. as I said before, Iran is ready to move past that. their people want to join the modern world community and the only reason they have allowed their government to continue stirring up trouble is because they were desperate to be heard. again, eliminating the cause of the problem is the best way to solve it.

8.) I disagree. of course they are not going to just dump a pile of cash on their citizens, but I do not believe that they will use this money to cause trouble. besides, Iran will most likely use this money to invest and build their economy.

Russia was part of the P5.............as was China....
Both have been assisting Iran already. Russia want to sell them cruise missiles later on in the agreement.

They don't need Nukes............but then they don't??????????? They either need them or they don't......Your oil response doesn't make sense..........as they have plentiful oil enough to run power plants for a very long time..............

item 8..........Naive...........the Gov't will spend the Lion's share and it will not be on their people.

Thanks for the response.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Reported abuses falling outside of the laws of the Islamic Republic that have been condemned include the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988, and the widespread use of torture to extract repudiations by prisoners of their cause and comrades on video for propaganda purposes.[3] Also condemned has been firebombings of newspaper offices and attacks on political protesters by "quasi-official organs of repression," particularly "Hezbollahi," and the murder of dozens of government opponents in the 1990s, allegedly by "rogue elements" of the government.

Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s human rights record "has deteriorated markedly," according to Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants "read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced."[7][8][9] In October 2012 the United Nations human rights office stated Iranian authorities had engaged in a “severe clampdown” on journalists and human rights advocates.[10]

Chain murders of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Chain Murders of Iran[1][2] (قتلهای زنجیره ای), or Serial Murders, were a series of murders and disappearances from 1988 to 1998 by Iranian government operatives of Iranian dissident intellectuals[3][4] who had been critical of the Islamic Republic system in some way.[5]

The victims included more than 80 writers, translators, poets, political activists, and ordinary citizens,[6][7] and were killed by a variety of means—car crashes, stabbings, shootings in staged robberies, injections with potassium to simulate a heart attack—in what some believe was an attempt to avoid connection between them.[8] The pattern of murders did not come to light until late 1998 when Dariush Forouhar, his wife Parvaneh Eskandari Forouhar, and three dissident writers, were murdered in the span of two months.[9]

you are not bringing up any new points. you are just restating the flawed argument that I have already addressed.

Not really.............You mention the people yes..............but they are under a Religious Dictatorship............that rule the whole thing and dissenters are put down without question.......................

Doing a deal doesn't weaken the Gov't......it makes it stronger..................and with more power the less chance those against it can succeed...........................

My point.............anyone who dissents is taken out of the equation.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

Those in Iran who oppose the Gov't disappear.................there is a history under the tyranny of Iran's Gov't.....................I'm sure there are many there who like it to go away..................

Just as I'm sure there were nice people in Germany during WWII.................and Japan for that matter.................

The money going to Iran will be held by the Gov't for their own purposes...........it will not be handed out to the people.............it will be handed out only to those who support the tyranny there.....................

And that group is hell bent on getting a Nuke.

this is an entirely different situation than WWII. their reason for this behavior was because they have been marginalized ever since powerful westerners divided up their shares of the world. The Iranian government is not a terrorist group. their goal is to join the global community, not to get a nuke.

 

[eagle1462010]

Those in Iran who oppose the Gov't disappear.................there is a history under the tyranny of Iran's Gov't.....................I'm sure there are many there who like it to go away..................

Just as I'm sure there were nice people in Germany during WWII.................and Japan for that matter.................

The money going to Iran will be held by the Gov't for their own purposes...........it will not be handed out to the people.............it will be handed out only to those who support the tyranny there.....................

And that group is hell bent on getting a Nuke.

this is an entirely different situation than WWII. their reason for this behavior was because they have been marginalized ever since powerful westerners divided up their shares of the world. The Iranian government is not a terrorist group. their goal is to join the global community, not to get a nuke.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Reported abuses falling outside of the laws of the Islamic Republic that have been condemned include the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988, and the widespread use of torture to extract repudiations by prisoners of their cause and comrades on video for propaganda purposes.[3] Also condemned has been firebombings of newspaper offices and attacks on political protesters by "quasi-official organs of repression," particularly "Hezbollahi," and the murder of dozens of government opponents in the 1990s, allegedly by "rogue elements" of the government.

Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s human rights record "has deteriorated markedly," according to Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants "read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced."[7][8][9] In October 2012 the United Nations human rights office stated Iranian authorities had engaged in a “severe clampdown” on journalists and human rights advocates.[10]

Chain murders of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Chain Murders of Iran[1][2] (قتلهای زنجیره ای), or Serial Murders, were a series of murders and disappearances from 1988 to 1998 by Iranian government operatives of Iranian dissident intellectuals[3][4] who had been critical of the Islamic Republic system in some way.[5]

The victims included more than 80 writers, translators, poets, political activists, and ordinary citizens,[6][7] and were killed by a variety of means—car crashes, stabbings, shootings in staged robberies, injections with potassium to simulate a heart attack—in what some believe was an attempt to avoid connection between them.[8] The pattern of murders did not come to light until late 1998 when Dariush Forouhar, his wife Parvaneh Eskandari Forouhar, and three dissident writers, were murdered in the span of two months.[9]

you are not bringing up any new points. you are just restating the flawed argument that I have already addressed.

Not really.............You mention the people yes..............but they are under a Religious Dictatorship............that rule the whole thing and dissenters are put down without question.......................

Doing a deal doesn't weaken the Gov't......it makes it stronger..................and with more power the less chance those against it can succeed...........................

My point.............anyone who dissents is taken out of the equation.

the deal does not weaken the Iranian government, but it does empower the people. rather than struggling to survive they will be able to make a living, and people can change their government when they have the time. again, the government of iran is not a terrorist group, not is it an entirely tyrannical regeme

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

Those in Iran who oppose the Gov't disappear.................there is a history under the tyranny of Iran's Gov't.....................I'm sure there are many there who like it to go away..................

Just as I'm sure there were nice people in Germany during WWII.................and Japan for that matter.................

The money going to Iran will be held by the Gov't for their own purposes...........it will not be handed out to the people.............it will be handed out only to those who support the tyranny there.....................

And that group is hell bent on getting a Nuke.

this is an entirely different situation than WWII. their reason for this behavior was because they have been marginalized ever since powerful westerners divided up their shares of the world. The Iranian government is not a terrorist group. their goal is to join the global community, not to get a nuke.

yes, actually. besides, even with WWII, if Germany had been given a chance to recover instead of essentially being beat up, mugged, and thrown into a dumpster, Hitler never could have risen to power.

 

[eagle1462010]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Reported abuses falling outside of the laws of the Islamic Republic that have been condemned include the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988, and the widespread use of torture to extract repudiations by prisoners of their cause and comrades on video for propaganda purposes.[3] Also condemned has been firebombings of newspaper offices and attacks on political protesters by "quasi-official organs of repression," particularly "Hezbollahi," and the murder of dozens of government opponents in the 1990s, allegedly by "rogue elements" of the government.

Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s human rights record "has deteriorated markedly," according to Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants "read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced."[7][8][9] In October 2012 the United Nations human rights office stated Iranian authorities had engaged in a “severe clampdown” on journalists and human rights advocates.[10]

Chain murders of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Chain Murders of Iran[1][2] (قتلهای زنجیره ای), or Serial Murders, were a series of murders and disappearances from 1988 to 1998 by Iranian government operatives of Iranian dissident intellectuals[3][4] who had been critical of the Islamic Republic system in some way.[5]

The victims included more than 80 writers, translators, poets, political activists, and ordinary citizens,[6][7] and were killed by a variety of means—car crashes, stabbings, shootings in staged robberies, injections with potassium to simulate a heart attack—in what some believe was an attempt to avoid connection between them.[8] The pattern of murders did not come to light until late 1998 when Dariush Forouhar, his wife Parvaneh Eskandari Forouhar, and three dissident writers, were murdered in the span of two months.[9]

you are not bringing up any new points. you are just restating the flawed argument that I have already addressed.

Not really.............You mention the people yes..............but they are under a Religious Dictatorship............that rule the whole thing and dissenters are put down without question.......................

Doing a deal doesn't weaken the Gov't......it makes it stronger..................and with more power the less chance those against it can succeed...........................

My point.............anyone who dissents is taken out of the equation.

the deal does not weaken the Iranian government, but it does empower the people. rather than struggling to survive they will be able to make a living, and people can change their government when they have the time. again, the government of iran is not a terrorist group, not is it an entirely tyrannical regeme

That Gov't is stirring the pot all over the Middle East and in Africa....................If it isn't ENTIRELY it's dang close..............They will decide how the money is used.........not the people...................

 

[eagle1462010]

Those in Iran who oppose the Gov't disappear.................there is a history under the tyranny of Iran's Gov't.....................I'm sure there are many there who like it to go away..................

Just as I'm sure there were nice people in Germany during WWII.................and Japan for that matter.................

The money going to Iran will be held by the Gov't for their own purposes...........it will not be handed out to the people.............it will be handed out only to those who support the tyranny there.....................

And that group is hell bent on getting a Nuke.

this is an entirely different situation than WWII. their reason for this behavior was because they have been marginalized ever since powerful westerners divided up their shares of the world. The Iranian government is not a terrorist group. their goal is to join the global community, not to get a nuke.

yes, actually. besides, even with WWII, if Germany had been given a chance to recover instead of essentially being beat up, mugged, and thrown into a dumpster, Hitler never could have risen to power.

Easy for you to say................Millions were dead on the battlefields, and all sides were tired of Trench Warfare..........The war wasn't finished..........................had they finished it and occupied Germany then WWII wouldn't have happened...........but I can't blame them..............too many had died already and they were tired of so many being killed......................

Later.........the depression...............it was every man for himself.............ALL WERE IN DIRE STRAITS........the rest didn't respond to it by going postal and creating WWII....................

Most were in no position financially to aid anybody.

 

[Tehon]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

You are correct in the complexity of the issue, why trivialize that with a simplistic view of terrorism? Terrorism exists for a multitude of reasons, it is not merely a cry for legitimacy.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I do not believe that this is the case: these claims are made by people who look at the deal and ask themselves: “does this hurt Iran more than it helps it?” This not the way we should be thinking. This results from the “us vs. them” mentality that has been cultivated in our society by the two party system, which I will explain my opinions on in a future essay. This deal was not about gaining an advantage over Iran, but about cooperating with it and benefitting both countries and the world as a result.

It is not a 2 Party system problem. Both parties for nearly 36 years have considered Iran an enemy of Freedom and a State Sponsor of Terror. I'd have to look it up but a letter was sent to Obama warning him to not cut a bad deal with 350 Congressional Signatures to not buckle in negotiations with Iran. Many Dems signed that letter.

367 House Members Send Letter on Iran Nuclear Negotiations to President Obama House Committee on Foreign Affairs - Ed Royce Chairman
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/sites/republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/files/03.20.15 - Iran Letter - POTUS.pdf

Our problem with Iran began under Carter. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown in the late 70's. The Shah is one of many brutal dictators which is common to the region. As it seems only Dictators can keep any country there stable. They don't do it by playing nice, but this was a Religious take over by Radicals in the Islamic Religion. When they took over they seized our embassy and held our people hostage for over a year. For 444 days our people were held. At the time, people were calling for Carter to go to War with Iran. I was one of them back then saying the same. To that point, an attack on our embassy is an attack on our nation and is a declaration of War.

Iran hostage crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Another point to Iran. We had oil shortages here as a result. Gas lines back then, and this is the reason for the Strategic Oil Reserve we have today.

Since Iran was a thorn in our side, Russia assisted Iran as they do today. More so then as we were still active in a Cold War. The Cold War shifted alliances in the region, and we backed Iraq more so for payback to Iran for holding our people in the Iran Iraq War. We also assisted the people in Afghanistan as Russia had it's on Vietnam there trying to dominate the region. To ensuing Wars were engaged. Iran then began to mine the Straits of Harmuse.....in a attempt to strangle the World's Oil supplies.

Operation Earnest Will - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We came into the fray to escort these tankers. I was there. They were throwing mines into water off the tankers and using small boats and frigates to directly challenge our mission. Not to mention Iranian jets on attack vectors to our ships. I went to GQ many a time with missiles on the rail ready to shoot down these aircraft. This eventually led to a FIGHT in which we sunk their ships, and destroyed their oil rigs.

At the same time Iraq hit the Stark.
USS Stark incident - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Roberts hits a mine.
USS Samuel B. Roberts FFG-58 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Our response.
Operation Praying Mantis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And direct military action against Iranian assets.

The Iranian frigate Sahand attacked by aircraft of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing 11 after the guided missile frigateUSS Samuel B. Roberts struck an Iranian mine

During the same time frame.........

1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
While Iran denied involvement..........of course........they helped KILL OUR MARINES in Lebanon. As they support the Hezballah there and always have in actions against Israel.

To be continued...........this is just laying the ground for the History of the problem with Iran........which is necessary to understand WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH..............

This is how it began...........

I did not say that the problem with Iran arose directly from the two party system. I was merely pointing out similarities. and the most important thing about this deal is that it is a step towards reverse all those years of hostile relationships. It is better to turn an enemy into an ally than to defeat it.

My purpose is clear. To show the history of a Rouge country and a history of why they are not to be trusted. Under the current leadership of Iran, they will NEVER BE AN ALLY. EVER.

They have a history of killing our people. Taking them hostage. Supporting Terror around the globe. Killing our people in Afghanistan through proxy support of the Taliban even now. Breaking UN Resolution after UN resolution. In short. They have a history of LIES and DECEIT to the World. Therefore, people like me don't think it's a good idea to make deals with a KNOWN LIAR.................

My internet screwed up and deleted have my other history lesson. To avoid the history lesson, do you at least agree that they have been causing Problems in the region and in the world for over 3 decades?

Second question. Do you agree that they are a State Sponsor of Terror?

3. If you were cutting the deal..........would you have DEMANDED the return of 4 Americans currently held by Iran.

4. Why do they need Nuclear Power? They sit on a sea of oil and can easily produce power via other means. There is no critical need to power their electrical grid with Nuclear Power, and I would remind you that we haven't built Nuclear Power plants here in decades. So why is it so important for them to have it there as they say.

5. Where in the deal is there a purpose to stop supporting elements like the Taliban, and Hezballah?

6. Why was it so important for Russia to have arms sales in part of the agreement? Specifically, the selling of cruise missiles to Iran at a later date that could be used against our Navy and other Navies Operating in the region. My point..........Russia sells them everything already. Russia knows they are a thorn in our side. And Russia does this in the NEW COLD WAR that is going on now.

7. Where in the agreement is the clause to make Peace with our ally Israel? And to stop supplying weapons in the region that constantly attack them. Even though ineffective, they are constant attacks to Israel supplied by Iran. Will they recognize Israel's right to exist?

8. They are going to release up to 150 Billion dollars from removal of Sanctions. This will not go to the people there. It will be used by the Gov't to increase it's tech and weapons technology. It will also allow Western companies to provide possible parts that could be used to expand it's ability to make the bomb.

Enough questions for now...............Thank you.

1.) yes, they have been stirring up trouble and have been known to lie in the past, but that was from the position of an oppressed and marginalized nation full of desperate people. eliminating the reason for the troublemakers to make trouble will make them stop making trouble. besides,

2.) yes they are, but this is one of the reasons why the deal is good. countries only sponsor terrorism because they are ignored and feel that it is the only way to be heard. by allowing Iran to join the global community, we are eliminating the cause of terrorist sponsorship.

3.) yes, I would. I believe that Iran would have been happy too, as the only reason to keep them there was the same reason they sponsored terrorism. Iran is ready to move past that, and this deal allows them to do so.

4.) they do not need nuclear power, I never said they did. however, oil is not a sustainable energy source. this is separate from the treaty, but I think that nuclear power is one of the more promising solutions tot he energy crisis.

5.) one deal cannot eliminate terrorism altogether. that is a separate matter. I may post an essay that I have prepared on that subject soon.

6.) again, the crisis with Russia is another issue. Russia was not involved in the deal. you cannot expect one treaty to solve all the world's problems. this agreement is just a large step forward.

7.) the deal does not have to directly state that. as I said before, Iran is ready to move past that. their people want to join the modern world community and the only reason they have allowed their government to continue stirring up trouble is because they were desperate to be heard. again, eliminating the cause of the problem is the best way to solve it.

8.) I disagree. of course they are not going to just dump a pile of cash on their citizens, but I do not believe that they will use this money to cause trouble. besides, Iran will most likely use this money to invest and build their economy.

Russia was part of the P5.............as was China....
Both have been assisting Iran already. Russia want to sell them cruise missiles later on in the agreement.

They don't need Nukes............but then they don't??????????? They either need them or they don't......Your oil response doesn't make sense..........as they have plentiful oil enough to run power plants for a very long time..............

item 8..........Naive...........the Gov't will spend the Lion's share and it will not be on their people.

Thanks for the response.

on the contrary, I believe you are the one who is not thinking things through. they dont need nukes, but nuclear power is an entirely different thing. if you want to have an argument on how to deal with russia and china, we can do that somwhere else. that is not the purpose of this thread. this "lion's share" is money that is frozen in foreig

Those in Iran who oppose the Gov't disappear.................there is a history under the tyranny of Iran's Gov't.....................I'm sure there are many there who like it to go away..................

Just as I'm sure there were nice people in Germany during WWII.................and Japan for that matter.................

The money going to Iran will be held by the Gov't for their own purposes...........it will not be handed out to the people.............it will be handed out only to those who support the tyranny there.....................

And that group is hell bent on getting a Nuke.

this is an entirely different situation than WWII. their reason for this behavior was because they have been marginalized ever since powerful westerners divided up their shares of the world. The Iranian government is not a terrorist group. their goal is to join the global community, not to get a nuke.

yes, actually. besides, even with WWII, if Germany had been given a chance to recover instead of essentially being beat up, mugged, and thrown into a dumpster, Hitler never could have risen to power.

Easy for you to say................Millions were dead on the battlefields, and all sides were tired of Trench Warfare..........The war wasn't finished..........................had they finished it and occupied Germany then WWII wouldn't have happened...........but I can't blame them..............too many had died already and they were tired of so many being killed......................

Later.........the depression...............it was every man for himself.............ALL WERE IN DIRE STRAITS........the rest didn't respond to it by going postal and creating WWII....................

Most were in no position financially to aid anybody.

they didn't need to give Germany financial aid, but they demanded absurd reparations which Germany has just finished paying off. the worldwide depression was in part caused by this.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

You are correct in the complexity of the issue, why trivialize that with a simplistic view of terrorism? Terrorism exists for a multitude of reasons, it is not merely a cry for legitimacy.

but that is the most common reason, and without that motivation, there would not be enough people joining for any terrorist group to survive.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I am going to post one common response to all the comments who say that this deal is bad because Iran has sponsored terrorists is not really a full democracy (the shah). it was explained in my essay above, but you do not seem to understand.the only reason why the people and countries who support terrorism do is because they are marginalized and desperate.A starving person living in their tiny hovel in the slums of Iran isn't going to worry about the quasi-dictatorship countries. all they care about is surviving, and when they hear that more sanctions have been put on Iran, it makes them hate the west.the only way to stop terrorism is to address its root causes by helping the desperate people most likely to become terroristswith the exception of ISIS, which is a special case).Iran is not a nation of radical religious zealots. these people are just as capable of rationality as any of us, and by NOT driving them to terrorism, we will (obviously) reduce terrorism. Content people do dot sign up to suicide bomb innocents. also, by allowing Iran to become a member of the global community, it has no reason to fund terrorist groups. Countries do this to have be heard when they are ignored and marginalized. You must think more deeply about the problem. Further punishing the Iranian people will only make more terrorists. In addition, if the Iranian people are allowed to join the global community, they will most likely attempt to change the government, separating it from religion. at the moment, that is not the most important issue for most Iranians. let go of your old, comfortable "us vs. them" mentality and realize that the issue is much more complex than that.

Human rights in the Islamic Republic of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
Reported abuses falling outside of the laws of the Islamic Republic that have been condemned include the execution of thousands of political prisoners in 1988, and the widespread use of torture to extract repudiations by prisoners of their cause and comrades on video for propaganda purposes.[3] Also condemned has been firebombings of newspaper offices and attacks on political protesters by "quasi-official organs of repression," particularly "Hezbollahi," and the murder of dozens of government opponents in the 1990s, allegedly by "rogue elements" of the government.

Under the administration of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Iran’s human rights record "has deteriorated markedly," according to Human Rights Watch,[4] and following the 2009 election protests there were reports of killing of demonstrators, the torture, rape and killing of detained protesters,[5][6] and the arrest and publicized mass trials of dozens of prominent opposition figures in which defendants "read confessions that bore every sign of being coerced."[7][8][9] In October 2012 the United Nations human rights office stated Iranian authorities had engaged in a “severe clampdown” on journalists and human rights advocates.[10]

Chain murders of Iran - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Chain Murders of Iran[1][2] (قتلهای زنجیره ای), or Serial Murders, were a series of murders and disappearances from 1988 to 1998 by Iranian government operatives of Iranian dissident intellectuals[3][4] who had been critical of the Islamic Republic system in some way.[5]

The victims included more than 80 writers, translators, poets, political activists, and ordinary citizens,[6][7] and were killed by a variety of means—car crashes, stabbings, shootings in staged robberies, injections with potassium to simulate a heart attack—in what some believe was an attempt to avoid connection between them.[8] The pattern of murders did not come to light until late 1998 when Dariush Forouhar, his wife Parvaneh Eskandari Forouhar, and three dissident writers, were murdered in the span of two months.[9]

you are not bringing up any new points. you are just restating the flawed argument that I have already addressed.

Not really.............You mention the people yes..............but they are under a Religious Dictatorship............that rule the whole thing and dissenters are put down without question.......................

Doing a deal doesn't weaken the Gov't......it makes it stronger..................and with more power the less chance those against it can succeed...........................

My point.............anyone who dissents is taken out of the equation.

the deal does not weaken the Iranian government, but it does empower the people. rather than struggling to survive they will be able to make a living, and people can change their government when they have the time. again, the government of iran is not a terrorist group, not is it an entirely tyrannical regeme

That Gov't is stirring the pot all over the Middle East and in Africa....................If it isn't ENTIRELY it's dang close..............They will decide how the money is used.........not the people...................

again, you are assuming the worst of Iran.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I do not believe that this is the case: these claims are made by people who look at the deal and ask themselves: “does this hurt Iran more than it helps it?” This not the way we should be thinking. This results from the “us vs. them” mentality that has been cultivated in our society by the two party system, which I will explain my opinions on in a future essay. This deal was not about gaining an advantage over Iran, but about cooperating with it and benefitting both countries and the world as a result.

It is not a 2 Party system problem. Both parties for nearly 36 years have considered Iran an enemy of Freedom and a State Sponsor of Terror. I'd have to look it up but a letter was sent to Obama warning him to not cut a bad deal with 350 Congressional Signatures to not buckle in negotiations with Iran. Many Dems signed that letter.

367 House Members Send Letter on Iran Nuclear Negotiations to President Obama House Committee on Foreign Affairs - Ed Royce Chairman
http://foreignaffairs.house.gov/sites/republicans.foreignaffairs.house.gov/files/03.20.15 - Iran Letter - POTUS.pdf

Our problem with Iran began under Carter. When the Shah of Iran was overthrown in the late 70's. The Shah is one of many brutal dictators which is common to the region. As it seems only Dictators can keep any country there stable. They don't do it by playing nice, but this was a Religious take over by Radicals in the Islamic Religion. When they took over they seized our embassy and held our people hostage for over a year. For 444 days our people were held. At the time, people were calling for Carter to go to War with Iran. I was one of them back then saying the same. To that point, an attack on our embassy is an attack on our nation and is a declaration of War.

Iran hostage crisis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Another point to Iran. We had oil shortages here as a result. Gas lines back then, and this is the reason for the Strategic Oil Reserve we have today.

Since Iran was a thorn in our side, Russia assisted Iran as they do today. More so then as we were still active in a Cold War. The Cold War shifted alliances in the region, and we backed Iraq more so for payback to Iran for holding our people in the Iran Iraq War. We also assisted the people in Afghanistan as Russia had it's on Vietnam there trying to dominate the region. To ensuing Wars were engaged. Iran then began to mine the Straits of Harmuse.....in a attempt to strangle the World's Oil supplies.

Operation Earnest Will - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

We came into the fray to escort these tankers. I was there. They were throwing mines into water off the tankers and using small boats and frigates to directly challenge our mission. Not to mention Iranian jets on attack vectors to our ships. I went to GQ many a time with missiles on the rail ready to shoot down these aircraft. This eventually led to a FIGHT in which we sunk their ships, and destroyed their oil rigs.

At the same time Iraq hit the Stark.
USS Stark incident - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

The Roberts hits a mine.
USS Samuel B. Roberts FFG-58 - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Our response.
Operation Praying Mantis - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

And direct military action against Iranian assets.

The Iranian frigate Sahand attacked by aircraft of U.S. Navy Carrier Air Wing 11 after the guided missile frigateUSS Samuel B. Roberts struck an Iranian mine

During the same time frame.........

1983 Beirut barracks bombing - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia
While Iran denied involvement..........of course........they helped KILL OUR MARINES in Lebanon. As they support the Hezballah there and always have in actions against Israel.

To be continued...........this is just laying the ground for the History of the problem with Iran........which is necessary to understand WHO WE ARE DEALING WITH..............

This is how it began...........

I did not say that the problem with Iran arose directly from the two party system. I was merely pointing out similarities. and the most important thing about this deal is that it is a step towards reverse all those years of hostile relationships. It is better to turn an enemy into an ally than to defeat it.

My purpose is clear. To show the history of a Rouge country and a history of why they are not to be trusted. Under the current leadership of Iran, they will NEVER BE AN ALLY. EVER.

They have a history of killing our people. Taking them hostage. Supporting Terror around the globe. Killing our people in Afghanistan through proxy support of the Taliban even now. Breaking UN Resolution after UN resolution. In short. They have a history of LIES and DECEIT to the World. Therefore, people like me don't think it's a good idea to make deals with a KNOWN LIAR.................

My internet screwed up and deleted have my other history lesson. To avoid the history lesson, do you at least agree that they have been causing Problems in the region and in the world for over 3 decades?

Second question. Do you agree that they are a State Sponsor of Terror?

3. If you were cutting the deal..........would you have DEMANDED the return of 4 Americans currently held by Iran.

4. Why do they need Nuclear Power? They sit on a sea of oil and can easily produce power via other means. There is no critical need to power their electrical grid with Nuclear Power, and I would remind you that we haven't built Nuclear Power plants here in decades. So why is it so important for them to have it there as they say.

5. Where in the deal is there a purpose to stop supporting elements like the Taliban, and Hezballah?

6. Why was it so important for Russia to have arms sales in part of the agreement? Specifically, the selling of cruise missiles to Iran at a later date that could be used against our Navy and other Navies Operating in the region. My point..........Russia sells them everything already. Russia knows they are a thorn in our side. And Russia does this in the NEW COLD WAR that is going on now.

7. Where in the agreement is the clause to make Peace with our ally Israel? And to stop supplying weapons in the region that constantly attack them. Even though ineffective, they are constant attacks to Israel supplied by Iran. Will they recognize Israel's right to exist?

8. They are going to release up to 150 Billion dollars from removal of Sanctions. This will not go to the people there. It will be used by the Gov't to increase it's tech and weapons technology. It will also allow Western companies to provide possible parts that could be used to expand it's ability to make the bomb.

Enough questions for now...............Thank you.

1.) yes, they have been stirring up trouble and have been known to lie in the past, but that was from the position of an oppressed and marginalized nation full of desperate people. eliminating the reason for the troublemakers to make trouble will make them stop making trouble. besides,

2.) yes they are, but this is one of the reasons why the deal is good. countries only sponsor terrorism because they are ignored and feel that it is the only way to be heard. by allowing Iran to join the global community, we are eliminating the cause of terrorist sponsorship.

3.) yes, I would. I believe that Iran would have been happy too, as the only reason to keep them there was the same reason they sponsored terrorism. Iran is ready to move past that, and this deal allows them to do so.

4.) they do not need nuclear power, I never said they did. however, oil is not a sustainable energy source. this is separate from the treaty, but I think that nuclear power is one of the more promising solutions tot he energy crisis.

5.) one deal cannot eliminate terrorism altogether. that is a separate matter. I may post an essay that I have prepared on that subject soon.

6.) again, the crisis with Russia is another issue. Russia was not involved in the deal. you cannot expect one treaty to solve all the world's problems. this agreement is just a large step forward.

7.) the deal does not have to directly state that. as I said before, Iran is ready to move past that. their people want to join the modern world community and the only reason they have allowed their government to continue stirring up trouble is because they were desperate to be heard. again, eliminating the cause of the problem is the best way to solve it.

8.) I disagree. of course they are not going to just dump a pile of cash on their citizens, but I do not believe that they will use this money to cause trouble. besides, Iran will most likely use this money to invest and build their economy.

Russia was part of the P5.............as was China....
Both have been assisting Iran already. Russia want to sell them cruise missiles later on in the agreement.

They don't need Nukes............but then they don't??????????? They either need them or they don't......Your oil response doesn't make sense..........as they have plentiful oil enough to run power plants for a very long time..............

item 8..........Naive...........the Gov't will spend the Lion's share and it will not be on their people.

Thanks for the response.

on the contrary, i believe that you are the one who is not thinking things through. nuclear power and nuclear weapons do not always exist together. you also cant rely on fossil fuels. they will eventually run out, and even disregarding that, they cause tons of pollution. also, the purpose of this agreement was not to deal with Russia and china. that is an entirely different matter. in addition, it doesn't matter how the government spends this "lion's share" (athough it will most likely stay where it is, for various economic reasons that I will not go into now): the people will benefit not from the government gaining money, but from joining the world economy. jobs will be created, they will be able to trade with he outside world, foreign businesses will become invested, ans so on.

 

[I amso IR]

I also am a newbie, simply an older newbie, in all respects. Brevity is a thing of beauty and to be honest the essay simply does not smack of brevity. Try to be brief, concise, truthful and brief. Nothing worse for an old newbie to awaken and ask himself, what was I reading. Nothing further, at this point, unless, now you have me rambling.

 

[PhilosphyBeforeParty]

I also am a newbie, simply an older newbie, in all respects. Brevity is a thing of beauty and to be honest the essay simply does not smack of brevity. Try to be brief, concise, truthful and brief. Nothing worse for an old newbie to awaken and ask himself, what was I reading. Nothing further, at this point, unless, now you have me rambling.

sometimes it takes a long essay to make the best argument (the last paper I posted is over 6 pages!)