The Hockey Stick Graph Reality

[Crick]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

 

[westwall]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

 

[Crick]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep.

Why? How far do you have to penetrate in any of the opaque materials that absorb almost every scintilla of energy that hits them? If water is NOT absorbing the IR that hits it and then disappears within a few microns, WHERE is that energy going?

 

[westwall]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep.

Why? How far do you have to penetrate in any of the opaque materials that absorb almost every scintilla of energy that hits them? If water is NOT absorbing the IR that hits it and then disappears within a few microns, WHERE is that energy going?

Heat rises. Thus to heat something as massive as the ocean you have to heat the depths, otherwise the heat escapes back to the atmosphere too quickly. Take a look at the thermocline, it begins at around 200 meters and hits bottom at about 1000 (4 deg C)meters. Beyond that the ocean temp drops at a relatively uniform rate, at 4500 meters it is around 3.5 deg C. The Sun has been feeding heat into the oceans for billions of years. THAT is what has heated this planet. Not some barely detectable trace gas.

 

[SSDD]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

You would think that an ocean engineer would know this stuff wouldn't you?

 

[flacaltenn]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

Point of interest. With the advent of satellite spectral analysis unhindered by the atmos, we now KNOW that UV content trades power with other bands during the 11 year solar cycle. By an APPRECIABLE amount. And long term over MANY cycles since about 1980s -- UV output has been INCREASING by a modest amount overall.

If any of the bands in the emission spectrum of GHGases shift like this over time -- the entire GH tuning changes. And we STILL don't have enough data observation to tell. Even miniscule shifts in the CO2/CH4 absorption bands would cough up a 3 watt/m2 diff at the surface.

 

[RollingThunder]

No, that is NOT the point. You tell us that visible can penetrate meters but that IR is restricted to the first few fucking microns. Well, you hit that rock and you will be lucky to get a few nanometers into the material. HOW does that rock, get warm? Why doesn't all that heat immediately return to the atmosphere as you claim happens with water?

Wrong again. I stated that UV can penetrate the oceans deeply. Not visible light. Learn to read with comprehension.

Wrong again, you deluded faker.

In the real world, visible light penetrates pretty deep, 200 meters and more, and all of the solar energy in the visible, or most energetic, part of the spectrum of solar energy, (the average over the entire earth = 164 Watts per square meter) gets absorbed by the oceans in that distance, thus heating the surface waters of the oceans.....what do you mistakenly imagine that UV light has to do with it? And don't bother to try to claim that 164W/sqm is miniscule. There are one million square meters in every square kilometer, and about 130 million square kilometers of ocean surface. Do the math, if you can.

The key factor in this matter is the infrared light backradiating from the greenhouse gases in the atmosphere that heats the ocean skin layer enough to slow the transport of heat from the oceans to the atmosphere, thus increasing the amount of heat remaining in the oceans.

How far does light travel in the ocean?
Light may be detected as far as 1,000 meters down in the ocean, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters.
NOAA - National Ocean Service

The ocean is divided into three zones based on depth and light level. Although some sea creatures depend on light to live, others can do without it.

Sunlight entering the water may travel about 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) into the ocean under the right conditions, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters (656 feet).

The ocean is divided into three zones based on depth and light level. The upper 200 meters (656 feet) of the ocean is called the euphotic, or "sunlight," zone. This zone contains the vast majority of commercial fisheries and is home to many protected marine mammals and sea turtles.

Only a small amount of light penetrates beyond this depth.

The zone between 200 meters (656 feet) and 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) is usually referred to as the “twilight” zone, but is officially the dysphotic zone. In this zone, the intensity of light rapidly dissipates as depth increases. Such a miniscule amount of light penetrates beyond a depth of 200 meters that photosynthesis is no longer possible.

The aphotic, or “midnight,” zone exists in depths below 1,000 meters (3,280 feet). Sunlight does not penetrate to these depths and the zone is bathed in darkness.

‘Photic’ is a derivative of ‘photon,’ the word for a particle of light.

 

[Crick]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

Why do you have to "penetrate really deep"? Do you have to penetrate really deep into a rock?

 

[mamooth]

Where did I say it couldn't penetrate a rock deeply? Please provide some proof of that.

So you're saying sunlight does penetrate rock?

Is it your claim that if I hold up a thin slab of rock, longwave IR energy from the sun will be passing right through it, with barely any absorbed?

What about brick? Do you believe longwave IR goes right through that as well? Can I bask in the warm sunlight (at least the longwave IR part) while sitting inside?

You need to quantify your claims. Just how deeply will sunlight go into a rock? Make sure to back up your claim with evidence.

 

[Crick]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep.

Why? How far do you have to penetrate in any of the opaque materials that absorb almost every scintilla of energy that hits them? If water is NOT absorbing the IR that hits it and then disappears within a few microns, WHERE is that energy going?

Heat rises.

I could be quite easily convinced I'm debating a third grader here. What the fuck do you think "heat rises" means? Heat goes in any direction in which it's aimed. Fluids sort themselves out by density, but heat goes wherever it fucking wants to you infantile twat. Let's take some seawater at 0C and HEAT IT UP to 4C. Where will it go? DOWN.

Thus to heat something as massive as the ocean you have to heat the depths, otherwise the heat escapes back to the atmosphere too quickly.

Jesus... the average temperature of the world's oceans is 3.9C. The oceans have had several billion years to get to their present state. You act as if you had a deadline. If I heat up the skin of the ocean, the FACT that the water below is 24 times more thermally conductive than - has four times the specific heat capacity by mass of - and is not separated by an air/water phasic interface with - the air above it means the VAST majority of that energy is going to go down.

Take a look at the thermocline, it begins at around 200 meters and hits bottom at about 1000 (4 deg C)meters. Beyond that the ocean temp drops at a relatively uniform rate, at 4500 meters it is around 3.5 deg C. The Sun has been feeding heat into the oceans for billions of years. THAT is what has heated this planet. Not some barely detectable trace gas.

What did the thermocline text you copied off the net have to do with anything in this conversation? Did you think that made you look smart? Of course the sun is the heat source. It's the heat source for everything on this planet. And who the fuck ever said CO2 was the heat source for anything? CO2 doesn't make heat. It simply slows its escape to space and thus raises the Earth's equilibrium temperature. The world's oceans are heated by radiation from the sun and the atmosphere and conduction from the air it touches. Increasing GHGs in the atmosphere increase its temperature and thus also the amount of radiation striking the ocean surface. The small but significant temperature increase the world's oceans have undergone in the last century and a half is due primarily to the greenhouse effect acting on human GHG emissions. That is what is heating this planet.

 

[Crick]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

You would think that an ocean engineer would know this stuff wouldn't you?

An ocean engineer would know it's complete crap and that neither of you have the faintest fuck of an idea what you're talking about.

 

[westwall]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

You would think that an ocean engineer would know this stuff wouldn't you?

An ocean engineer would know it's crap and that neither of you have the faintest fuck of an idea what you're talking about.

An ocean "engineer" who doesn't understand how the ocean is warmed... yeah, sure...

 

[Crick]

An ocean "engineer" who doesn't understand how the ocean is warmed... yeah, sure...

Still waiting for you to respond to any of the following:
1) How opaque materials are warmed by radiation
2) What happens to the IR energy absorbed by the ocean's surface
a) WRT the difference in thermal conductivity between water and air
b) WRT the difference in specific heat capacity between water and air
c) WRT mixing
3) Why you think light that transmits THROUGH water is the most effectively absorbed
4) Why you keep squealing "heat rises"
5) Why you use the obvious red herring that CO2 heats the ocean

Anything?

 

[SSDD]

Visible light penetrates past 30 meters.

I know. But to heat the oceans you have to penetrate really deep. Hundreds of meters deep. UV can do that. No other form of light can. UV can penetrate 500, to 600 meters deep.

You would think that an ocean engineer would know this stuff wouldn't you?

An ocean engineer would know it's complete crap and that neither of you have the faintest fuck of an idea what you're talking about.

Perhaps in opposite world crick...certainly not in the real world...all you are doing is showing us how little you actually know...

Here, from the warmer wacko site...real climate...the author acknowledges that IR only penetrates the skin of the ocean a few micrometers...

" since the infrared radiation does not penetrate more than a few micrometers into the ocean?"

He then goes into a long rather bullshit ramble about how this results in warming which only a glassed eyed member of the changing cult would believe, but he acknowledges the fact that IR doesn't penetrate the oceans more than a few microns none the less..

Why greenhouse gases heat the ocean


So once again...the fake ocean engineer doesn't even seem to know jack about the ocean.

 

[Crick]

Yo, dipshit, when did I ever argue that point? Umm... never. I argued the five points up above. The ones you just ignored. Try again fool.

 

[SSDD]

Yo, dipshit, when did I ever argue that point? Umm... never. I argued the five points up above. The ones you just ignored. Try again fool.

You have already been given the answer to all those...the fact that you don't like them because they are in opposition to your glassy eyed chanting cult's dogma is irrelevant.

 

[RollingThunder]

Most of the moronic denier cult twaddle posted here was debunked in post #167.

How far does light travel in the ocean?
Light may be detected as far as 1,000 meters down in the ocean, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters.
NOAA - National Ocean Service

The ocean is divided into three zones based on depth and light level. Although some sea creatures depend on light to live, others can do without it.

Sunlight entering the water may travel about 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) into the ocean under the right conditions, but there is rarely any significant light beyond 200 meters (656 feet).

The ocean is divided into three zones based on depth and light level. The upper 200 meters (656 feet) of the ocean is called the euphotic, or "sunlight," zone. This zone contains the vast majority of commercial fisheries and is home to many protected marine mammals and sea turtles.

Only a small amount of light penetrates beyond this depth.

The zone between 200 meters (656 feet) and 1,000 meters (3,280 feet) is usually referred to as the “twilight” zone, but is officially the dysphotic zone. In this zone, the intensity of light rapidly dissipates as depth increases. Such a miniscule amount of light penetrates beyond a depth of 200 meters that photosynthesis is no longer possible.

The aphotic, or “midnight,” zone exists in depths below 1,000 meters (3,280 feet). Sunlight does not penetrate to these depths and the zone is bathed in darkness.

‘Photic’ is a derivative of ‘photon,’ the word for a particle of light.

 

[Crick]

Yo, dipshit, when did I ever argue that point? Umm... never. I argued the five points up above. The ones you just ignored. Try again fool.

You have already been given the answer to all those...the fact that you don't like them because they are in opposition to your glassy eyed chanting cult's dogma is irrelevant.

You have answered NONE of them.

1) How does IR heat opaque materials?

2) Explain how the bulk of IR energy absorbed by water is lost to the air (as you claim) when water is 24 times as thermally conductive and has more than 4 times the specific heat capacity and 3,150 times the volumetric heat capacity as air.

 

[ScienceRocks]

What you need to realize is the far right hates science and wants to do away with it...No amount of evidence will ever convince them of the need for science.

The right is like the isis in many ways.

 

[Toddsterpatriot]

What you need to realize is the far right hates science and wants to do away with it...No amount of evidence will ever convince them of the need for science.

The right is like the isis in many ways.

Plenty on the left hate science......you silly twat.