The Ghosts of Gaza:

[Lipush]

Phoenall -

Waltz with Bashir.

I would rather sit it out and watch the ISLAMONAZI terrorists wipe each other out

The Paragon of the real ZioNazis...

Pfft, more like sane people. What so bad about wanting Jihadi terrorists to kill themselves? as long as they do, they don't kill the "infidels".

What pains you? that in the meantime, they could kill an innocent Jew?

Sod off, the only Nazi here is you.

 

[Lipush]

Phoenall -

Waltz with Bashir.

The most propagandonist, leftist, masochist movie ever created.

Stupid movie.

 

[Lipush]

The shadows of Sabra and Shatil rise again.....

I suspect the IDF face similar issues with soldiers in Gaza than the US experienced in Vat Nsm i.e. Soldiers who do not want to be there, fighting a war that they do not believe in, and being asked to perform tasks that they do not accept.

I feel sorry for the soldiers. I am sure most are decent people who just want to go home and het on with their lives. Instead they are faced with the yawning contradiction between what Israel says, and what it does.

I think it is a powerful message that many toung Israeli people refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories. That alone may remind their leaders that they cannot simply assume everyone believes in occupation as a concept.

Totally agree...one's conscience makes us Human...

Yeah, of course you agree.

Go pull that nonsense on someone else.

Most soldiers were EAGER to kick ass in Gaza and protect the south.

 

[Saigon]

Phoenall -

Waltz with Bashir.

The most propagandonist, leftist, masochist movie ever created.

Stupid movie.

Masochistic, possibly.

Stupid? I thought it was a VERY intelligent piece of film making, both visually and in terms of story.

But to my mind it's a very honest portrait of one soldier's experience. I don't see anything in the slightest bit 'leftist' or 'propagandist' about that, anymore so than an American war movie like 'Blackhawk Down' or 'Hurt Locker' were leftist or propagandist.

 

[Lipush]

I remember watching it when was 19 and thinking it was pure trash. Again the IDF is to be blamed for anything, without the slightest doubt? Please. Been there, done that.

Only thing clever about it is the animation.

 

[Saigon]

Most soldiers were EAGER to kick ass in Gaza and protect the south.

I imagine many were - that doesn't mean that they did not come back from Gaza feeling traumatised and shocked by what they saw and did while they were there.

I would like to think the time in which we accuse shell-shocked vets of being cowards or leftists or traitors was many, many years behind us.

 

[Saigon]

I remember watching it when was 19 and thinking it was pure trash. Again the IDF is to be blamed for anything, without the slightest doubt? Please. Been there, done that.

Only thing clever about it is the animation.

If it had been made by Palestinians or even Europeans I would agree with you - but the film was made by ex-IDF soldiers, and I think they are as much in a position to criticise IDF actions as are the many American authors who criticised US actions in Viet Nam.

I just do not accept that you can criticise the authors of books like Mark Baker's 'Nam' or Karl Marlantes' 'Matterhorn' as being leftist, purely and simply because it criticises the roles they were forced to play in a war they understood little about.

 

[Lipush]

Most soldiers were EAGER to kick ass in Gaza and protect the south.

I imagine many were - that doesn't mean that they did not come back from Gaza feeling traumatised and shocked by what they saw and did while they were there.

I would like to think the time in which we accuse shell-shocked vets of being cowards or leftists or traitors was many, many years behind us.

That's not what I meant. As I said, my own father came back scarred from Egypt, I have no business judging those who feel burden.

But you know what's the difference is? that my father fought his own wars, so did my entire family, so did myself. I didn't went to whine to foreign anti-Zionist networks about how poor I am and how the state screwed me up and how noble I am compared to others because I supposedly have more sensible concience.

We have solutions for traumatized soldiers. Going to cry on international network on how bad Israel is, when it's far from the case, well that disgusts me.

Should disgust every Israeli.

 

[toastman]

The shadows of Sabra and Shatil rise again.....

I suspect the IDF face similar issues with soldiers in Gaza than the US experienced in Vat Nsm i.e. Soldiers who do not want to be there, fighting a war that they do not believe in, and being asked to perform tasks that they do not accept.

I feel sorry for the soldiers. I am sure most are decent people who just want to go home and het on with their lives. Instead they are faced with the yawning contradiction between what Israel says, and what it does.

I think it is a powerful message that many toung Israeli people refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories. That alone may remind their leaders that they cannot simply assume everyone believes in occupation as a concept.

Sabra and Shatilla? You mean the refugee camp where Palestinians were slaughtered by Phalange Christians?

 

[Lipush]

I remember watching it when was 19 and thinking it was pure trash. Again the IDF is to be blamed for anything, without the slightest doubt? Please. Been there, done that.

Only thing clever about it is the animation.

If it had been made by Palestinians or even Europeans I would agree with you - but the film was made by ex-IDF soldiers, and I think they are as much in a position to criticise IDF actions as are the many American authors who criticised US actions in Viet Nam.

I just do not accept that you can criticise the authors of books like Mark Baker's 'Nam' or Karl Marlantes' 'Matterhorn' as being leftist, purely and simply because it criticises the roles they were forced to play in a war they understood little about.

The only good Israel movies that win international attention is those made by "concience eating" soldiers telling of how bad they feel and "the state made me do it."

If in 10 or 20 or 50 years the youngest son of the Fogel family will go out telling the story of how his baby sister and parents were slaughtered by Palestinians, it won't win any international attantion. Why should it, it doesn't put Israel in a bad light.

Before rolling your eyes, tell me how many international movies about this conflict didn't conclude in "The IDF is to blame" or "The Israeli government is responsible."

How many honest Israeli POV movies turned successful? Name 3.

 

[Lipush]

The shadows of Sabra and Shatil rise again.....

I suspect the IDF face similar issues with soldiers in Gaza than the US experienced in Vat Nsm i.e. Soldiers who do not want to be there, fighting a war that they do not believe in, and being asked to perform tasks that they do not accept.

I feel sorry for the soldiers. I am sure most are decent people who just want to go home and het on with their lives. Instead they are faced with the yawning contradiction between what Israel says, and what it does.

I think it is a powerful message that many toung Israeli people refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories. That alone may remind their leaders that they cannot simply assume everyone believes in occupation as a concept.

Sabra and Shatilla? You mean the refugee camp where Palestinians were slaughtered by Phalange Christians?

Sharon, dude.

The Jews did it.

Blame the Jooooos

 

[toastman]

The shadows of Sabra and Shatil rise again.....

I suspect the IDF face similar issues with soldiers in Gaza than the US experienced in Vat Nsm i.e. Soldiers who do not want to be there, fighting a war that they do not believe in, and being asked to perform tasks that they do not accept.

I feel sorry for the soldiers. I am sure most are decent people who just want to go home and het on with their lives. Instead they are faced with the yawning contradiction between what Israel says, and what it does.

I think it is a powerful message that many toung Israeli people refuse to serve in the Occupied Territories. That alone may remind their leaders that they cannot simply assume everyone believes in occupation as a concept.

Sabra and Shatilla? You mean the refugee camp where Palestinians were slaughtered by Phalange Christians?

Sharon, dude.

The Jews did it.

Blame the Jooooos

Whenever I hear pro Palestinians talking about Sabra and Shatilla, not ONCE , and I mean NOT ONCE, do any of then mention those who were actually responsible for the massacre.

 

[Saigon]

[


Sabra and Shatilla? You mean the refugee camp where Palestinians were slaughtered by Phalange Christians?

Sharon, dude.

The Jews did it.

Blame the Jooooos

Really, Lipush, this kind of posting is far beneath you.

You're an intelligent, informed person and you KNOW the history. You know as well as I do that the massacares were coordinated and planned by both Phalange and the IDF
(with the IDF even providing flare lighting over the area where the massacres took place) and every Israel person should feel disgusted by that.

 

[Saigon]

Whenever I hear pro Palestinians talking about Sabra and Shatilla, not ONCE , and I mean NOT ONCE, do any of then mention those who were actually responsible for the massacre.

Ummm.....then read the thread, come back and edit your comment.

I explained to Phoenell on page one that the Phalange did the killing.

 

[Roudy]

....while totally ignoring the thousands upon thousands of Christian Lebanese killed by Palestinian savages.

 

[Lipush]

[


Sabra and Shatilla? You mean the refugee camp where Palestinians were slaughtered by Phalange Christians?

Sharon, dude.

The Jews did it.

Blame the Jooooos

Really, Lipush, this kind of posting is far beneath you.

You're an intelligent, informed person and you KNOW the history. You know as well as I do that the massacares were coordinated and planned by both Phalange and the IDF
(with the IDF even providing flare lighting over the area where the massacres took place) and every Israel person should feel disgusted by that.

It may be far beneath me, but the fact here was and still is that ARAB Christians and ARAB Muslims had the conflict between them, but for some reason the JEWS are in need to apologize.

The IDF may have "loaded the gun" but the choice if to fire it or not was not ours, but to the people of Lebanon. Guns don't kill, people do.

 

[toastman]

Whenever I hear pro Palestinians talking about Sabra and Shatilla, not ONCE , and I mean NOT ONCE, do any of then mention those who were actually responsible for the massacre.

Ummm.....then read the thread, come back and edit your comment.

I explained to Phoenell on page one that the Phalange did the killing.

You are honestly the first person to mentioned the Phalange fighters.
But you first mentioned S &S , you were using it against the IDF

 

[Saigon]

Toastman -

Thanks for admitting that I DID mention the Phalange - I appreciate it.

When I raised the issue ofSabra & Shatila I did so because I know a soldier who was there. I saw how he changed when he came back from Lebanon. He never talked about it in detail, but when the news broke I kind of put 2 and 2 together. He was a great guy and a good friend. I don't think he should have been put in that situation.

I don't see this as a partisan issue - it's a human issue. War destroys the lives of soldiers, and it's something that I think we should all mourn.

 

[Saigon]

[


Sabra and Shatilla? You mean the refugee camp where Palestinians were slaughtered by Phalange Christians?

Sharon, dude.

The Jews did it.

Blame the Jooooos

Really, Lipush, this kind of posting is far beneath you.

You're an intelligent, informed person and you KNOW the history. You know as well as I do that the massacares were coordinated and planned by both Phalange and the IDF
(with the IDF even providing flare lighting over the area where the massacres took place) and every Israel person should feel disgusted by that.

It may be far beneath me, but the fact here was and still is that ARAB Christians and ARAB Muslims had the conflict between them, but for some reason the JEWS are in need to apologize.

The IDF may have "loaded the gun" but the choice if to fire it or not was not ours, but to the people of Lebanon. Guns don't kill, people do.

If it was a war only between Arab Christians and Arab Muslims, Israeli troops would not have been in Beirut to begin with.

I totally believe that Israel should apologise, and should remember and should teach their children what happened. It's an imperative to learn from history.

In no way does this mean that the Phalange do not hold the lions share of blame for this, and that should weigh on their backs until the end of time. I have a hard time hearing people use the word 'Christian' about people who gang raped women and castrated young boys as they went about their killing. It's bestial.

The only thing that spares the Phalange more condemenation is that they are such a small group, as are the Druze and many of the other groups. They aren't a country or a government or even a region, and are well below the radars of most of us.

 

[Roudy]

Keep ignoring what the Palestinian savages did to the Christians in Lebanon. I didn't know that the Lebanese Christian were "occupying" ancient Palestinian lands?

The Damour massacre took place on January 20, 1976, during the 1975–1990 Lebanese Civil War. Damour, a Maronite town on the main highway south of Beirut, was attacked by the Palestine Liberation Organisationunits. Part of its population died in battle or in the massacre that followed, and the remainder were forced to flee.

• Background

The Phalangist militia based in Damour and Dayr al Nama had been blocking the coastal road. The Damour massacre was a response to the Karantina massacre of January 18, 1976, in which Phalangists killed from 1000 up to 5000 people.

It occurred as part of a series of events during the Lebanese Civil War, in which Palestinians joined the Muslim forces, in the context of the Christian-Muslim divide, and soon Beirut was divided along the Green Line, with Christian enclaves to the east and Muslims to the west.

Twenty Phalangist militiamen were executed, and then civilians were lined up against a wall and sprayed with machine-gun fire. None of the remaining inhabitants survived.[10] An estimated 582 civilians died. Among the killed were family members of Elie Hobeika and his fiancée. Following the Battle of Tel al-Zaatar later the same year, the PLO resettled Palestinian refugees in Damour. After the Israeli invasion of Lebanon in 1982, the Zaatar refugees were expelled from Damour, and the original inhabitants brought back.

According to Thomas L. Friedman, the Phalangist Damouri Brigade, which carried out the Sabra and Shatila massacre during the 1982 Lebanon War sought revenge not only for the assassination of Bashir Gemayel, but also for what he describes as past tribal killings of their own people by Palestinians, including those at Damour.

According to an eyewitness, the attack took place from the mountain behind the town. "It was an apocalypse," said Father Mansour Labaky, a Christian Maronite priest who survived the massacre. "They were coming, thousands and thousands, shouting 'Allahu Akbar! (God is great!) Let us attack them for the Arabs, let us offer a holocaust to Mohammad!', and they were slaughtering everyone in their path, men, women and children."

Perpetrators
The attack and subsequent massacre was carried out by a mixed crew of Palestinian militiamen.

According to journalist and author Robert Fisk, the attack was led by Colonel Abu Musa, a senior commander of the PLO and Fatah, and later leader of the anti-Arafat Fatah Uprising faction. Cedarland.org names Zuheir Mohsen, leader of as-Sa'iqa, a Damascus-based Palestinian faction operating directly on Syrian orders, and claims that he was known in Lebanon as the "Butcher from Damour".

The bulk of the attacking forces seems to have been composed of brigades from the Palestinian Liberation Army and as-Sa'iqa, as well as other militias, including Fatah. Some sources also mention the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP), theDemocratic Front for the Liberation of Palestine (DFLP), and the Muslim Lebanese al-Murabitun militia among the attackers. There are reports that PLO forces were additionally joined by militiamen from Syria, Jordan, Libya, Iran, Pakistan and Afghanistan, and possibly even Japanese Red Army terrorists who were then undergoing training by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine in Lebanon.