The First Multirole Fighter

[Bleipriester]

We talk about the F-4, the F-15E, the F-16, F-18 and a few more but the first Mulitrole Fighter was the P-38. It was used even for a Hospital Emergency Ambulance and much much more. Here is what the pilots had to say about it.

How did it compare with the British Mosquito?

In most things, they were about equal as multirole. But as a pure bomber, the nod goes to the Mossie. But was you lean towards the fighter, the P-38 gets the nod. The Mossie had the advantage of being able to carry it's bombs internally so the drag wasn't there. The P-38 had to carry it external so it got slowed down depending on the load. Both were used as Night Fighters. The Mossie had room in the nose while the P-38 got a pod. Both were used as pathfinders and again, the Mossie got it internal and the P-38 got a pod. Both were used..... The list is quite extensive on both.

But the Mossie got the headlines while the P-38 didn't. But in the Pacific, the P-38 was superior because it could start on one mission and do a completely different mission during or after another one that was completely different. For instance, after skip bombing and strafing shipping, it would go after another area and go for Fighter and Bomber Interception all on the same mission when it peeled away from the B-25s and B-24s. But as a light bomber, the Mossie had a slightly better range and speed. Until the P-38 cleaned up. The early P-38Fs and Gs, the Mossie had a edge on in many things but by the time the P-38J-25 and L hit the skies and the other models were reconfigured, the Mossie no longer had that advantage except as a light bomber. Both of them could carry the same bomb load, a whopping 4000lbs which was equal to a B-17 but both could not carry that many small bombs like the 17 could. Carrying that heavy a load, the 38 had a very short range because he had to give up both drop tanks and the drag was bad. Let's face it, the Mossie had more internal fuel and didn't have the drag of the external bombs. On many mixed missions, the P-38 carried one 1000lb bomb and one drop tank and used his drop tank for the first half of the mission for his fuel.

Which was better? Depends on the mission, the year, the model, a lot of things. It also meant how much training the new pilots got when they first showed up. The early P-38 pilots, many hadn't even flown anything other than a single engine trainer in the states before they were plunked into the seat of a P-38 and sent off into battle. The Mossie Pilots were seasoned pilots.

You should make it clear that mossie is in reference to the mosquito a British twin engine multi role fighter-bomber with no armor other than it's speed. It was partially constructed from wood and was powered with two Merlin engines. The same engines used on numerous aircraft including the Spitfire, the Lancaster heavy bomber, and our own P51 mustang (my favorite WWII fighter).

"Mossie" were used as high altitude reconnaissance planes.

 

[Oddball]

We talk about the F-4, the F-15E, the F-16, F-18 and a few more but the first Mulitrole Fighter was the P-38. It was used even for a Hospital Emergency Ambulance and much much more. Here is what the pilots had to say about it.

How did it compare with the British Mosquito?

Not near as fast.

 

[Oddball]

BF-109 of course.

Gustav.

 

[Oddball]

"Mossie" were used as high altitude reconnaissance planes.

Low level too....They could outrun anything.

 

[westwall]

As long as it didn't require any range or payload or ........ The BF or ME109 was one thing and one thing only. It was the best pure fighter just before and at the beginning of WWII. It takes a lot to be a multi role fighter and be mentioned in the same category as the P-38, F-4, and just a handful of others. Today, almost all fighters are forced to be Multi role fighters.

Even the first Bf-109 could carry small bombs and they were used as light bombers, reconnaissance, night fighter, fighter, cas and interceptor.

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.

 

[Oddball]

No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.

Then there was Hitler interfering, insisting that the 262 be used as an offensive tactical platform...A role for which it was poorly suited.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

BF-109 of course.

As long as it didn't require any range or payload or ........ The BF or ME109 was one thing and one thing only. It was the best pure fighter just before and at the beginning of WWII. It takes a lot to be a multi role fighter and be mentioned in the same category as the P-38, F-4, and just a handful of others. Today, almost all fighters are forced to be Multi role fighters.

Even the first Bf-109 could carry small bombs and they were used as light bombers, reconnaissance, night fighter, fighter, cas and interceptor.

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The op was about Multi Role and the 109 could only do one job and that was as a short range point defense fighter. By late 1943, it was just average at that. It could not be upgraded any further. really, than the F version which, in my mind, was the best of the whole lot of 109s. It got fat and heavy when the G model came out. And if the engine did not have that extra oomph to it, it the G would have been a disaster. Meanwhile, the later models of the 190 was about as good as it gets. The 190D was, arguably as good as even the P-51 and that says a lot. But those were pure fighters.

Meanwhile, the Multi Roled Fighters like the P-38L and P-47D were tearing up the 109 in dogfights AND tearing up anything they ran across on the ground. The little trick the 109 used to loose a P-38 no longer worked by diving. The P-38L would dive with the 109 all the way to the deck and still be on it's tail when both recovered. And of course, that same trick was suicide if tried with the P-47.

Both the P-38 and the P-47 were the go to Multi Role long ranged fighters of the war. The 109s only real claim to fame was that it was the number one produced fighter and it was the 2nd modern fighter of the war, I think the Italians had the first. I just can't remember the model right now. But as a multi role fighter, the 109 could NEVER make that claim.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

We talk about the F-4, the F-15E, the F-16, F-18 and a few more but the first Mulitrole Fighter was the P-38. It was used even for a Hospital Emergency Ambulance and much much more. Here is what the pilots had to say about it.

How did it compare with the British Mosquito?

In most things, they were about equal as multirole. But as a pure bomber, the nod goes to the Mossie. But was you lean towards the fighter, the P-38 gets the nod. The Mossie had the advantage of being able to carry it's bombs internally so the drag wasn't there. The P-38 had to carry it external so it got slowed down depending on the load. Both were used as Night Fighters. The Mossie had room in the nose while the P-38 got a pod. Both were used as pathfinders and again, the Mossie got it internal and the P-38 got a pod. Both were used..... The list is quite extensive on both.

But the Mossie got the headlines while the P-38 didn't. But in the Pacific, the P-38 was superior because it could start on one mission and do a completely different mission during or after another one that was completely different. For instance, after skip bombing and strafing shipping, it would go after another area and go for Fighter and Bomber Interception all on the same mission when it peeled away from the B-25s and B-24s. But as a light bomber, the Mossie had a slightly better range and speed. Until the P-38 cleaned up. The early P-38Fs and Gs, the Mossie had a edge on in many things but by the time the P-38J-25 and L hit the skies and the other models were reconfigured, the Mossie no longer had that advantage except as a light bomber. Both of them could carry the same bomb load, a whopping 4000lbs which was equal to a B-17 but both could not carry that many small bombs like the 17 could. Carrying that heavy a load, the 38 had a very short range because he had to give up both drop tanks and the drag was bad. Let's face it, the Mossie had more internal fuel and didn't have the drag of the external bombs. On many mixed missions, the P-38 carried one 1000lb bomb and one drop tank and used his drop tank for the first half of the mission for his fuel.

Which was better? Depends on the mission, the year, the model, a lot of things. It also meant how much training the new pilots got when they first showed up. The early P-38 pilots, many hadn't even flown anything other than a single engine trainer in the states before they were plunked into the seat of a P-38 and sent off into battle. The Mossie Pilots were seasoned pilots.

You should make it clear that mossie is in reference to the mosquito a British twin engine multi role fighter-bomber with no armor other than it's speed. It was partially constructed from wood and was powered with two Merlin engines. The same engines used on numerous aircraft including the Spitfire, the Lancaster heavy bomber, and our own P51 mustang (my favorite WWII fighter).

Sorry, sometimes I assume that everyone knows this but I run circles of military savvy people. My bad. The Mossie was unique. So unique the Germans and the Soviets tried to copy it and didn't do a very good job of it. Looks like those English Cabinet Makers were the best of the Best.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

As long as it didn't require any range or payload or ........ The BF or ME109 was one thing and one thing only. It was the best pure fighter just before and at the beginning of WWII. It takes a lot to be a multi role fighter and be mentioned in the same category as the P-38, F-4, and just a handful of others. Today, almost all fighters are forced to be Multi role fighters.

Even the first Bf-109 could carry small bombs and they were used as light bombers, reconnaissance, night fighter, fighter, cas and interceptor.

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

We talk about the F-4, the F-15E, the F-16, F-18 and a few more but the first Mulitrole Fighter was the P-38. It was used even for a Hospital Emergency Ambulance and much much more. Here is what the pilots had to say about it.

How did it compare with the British Mosquito?

In most things, they were about equal as multirole. But as a pure bomber, the nod goes to the Mossie. But was you lean towards the fighter, the P-38 gets the nod. The Mossie had the advantage of being able to carry it's bombs internally so the drag wasn't there. The P-38 had to carry it external so it got slowed down depending on the load. Both were used as Night Fighters. The Mossie had room in the nose while the P-38 got a pod. Both were used as pathfinders and again, the Mossie got it internal and the P-38 got a pod. Both were used..... The list is quite extensive on both.

But the Mossie got the headlines while the P-38 didn't. But in the Pacific, the P-38 was superior because it could start on one mission and do a completely different mission during or after another one that was completely different. For instance, after skip bombing and strafing shipping, it would go after another area and go for Fighter and Bomber Interception all on the same mission when it peeled away from the B-25s and B-24s. But as a light bomber, the Mossie had a slightly better range and speed. Until the P-38 cleaned up. The early P-38Fs and Gs, the Mossie had a edge on in many things but by the time the P-38J-25 and L hit the skies and the other models were reconfigured, the Mossie no longer had that advantage except as a light bomber. Both of them could carry the same bomb load, a whopping 4000lbs which was equal to a B-17 but both could not carry that many small bombs like the 17 could. Carrying that heavy a load, the 38 had a very short range because he had to give up both drop tanks and the drag was bad. Let's face it, the Mossie had more internal fuel and didn't have the drag of the external bombs. On many mixed missions, the P-38 carried one 1000lb bomb and one drop tank and used his drop tank for the first half of the mission for his fuel.

Which was better? Depends on the mission, the year, the model, a lot of things. It also meant how much training the new pilots got when they first showed up. The early P-38 pilots, many hadn't even flown anything other than a single engine trainer in the states before they were plunked into the seat of a P-38 and sent off into battle. The Mossie Pilots were seasoned pilots.

You should make it clear that mossie is in reference to the mosquito a British twin engine multi role fighter-bomber with no armor other than it's speed. It was partially constructed from wood and was powered with two Merlin engines. The same engines used on numerous aircraft including the Spitfire, the Lancaster heavy bomber, and our own P51 mustang (my favorite WWII fighter).

"Mossie" were used as high altitude reconnaissance planes.

Also as night fighters when fitted with radar. They were also fitted with Bomb Sights and worked as pathfinders. It was a very remarkable bird especially when you consider what it was constructed of.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

"Mossie" were used as high altitude reconnaissance planes.

Low level too....They could outrun anything.

Not really. They were fast but not against a pure fighter. Luckily, the fighters (excluding the 262) that could run them down were all from the US.

 

[Bleipriester]

Even the first Bf-109 could carry small bombs and they were used as light bombers, reconnaissance, night fighter, fighter, cas and interceptor.

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, and incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.

Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.

 

[Bleipriester]

Even the first Bf-109 could carry small bombs and they were used as light bombers, reconnaissance, night fighter, fighter, cas and interceptor.

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.

And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.

 

[Bleipriester]

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.

And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.

I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.

And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.

I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.

I've heard enough of your cracked history. Have a nice day.

 

[Bleipriester]

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.

And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.

I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.

I've heard enough of your cracked history. Have a nice day.

Number of bombers lost by each heavy bomber group in the 8th Air Force during World War II
Missions: 10631
Bombers lost: 4145
8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers

Stay classy.

 

[Crixus]

It had the added advantage of looking cool as balls. Truly a Buck Rogers ship...

They tore shit up with that. I remember the days when History Channel did shows about history. May be where OP got his clip. I saw one of these at an air show. Sleek, cool, awesome. Just looking at it made me want to go fast and rip stuff apart.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

The Jumo Engines were crap engines. The T-wheels were not made out of Tungsten like the Whipples. They used hollow stainless steel because they had a shortage of tungsten. Never start a war when you piss off the countries that have the precious metals you need. Time to Overhaul was claimed at 25 hours but the engine rarely made it to 10 hours before the Turbine Wheels started to come apart. Meanwhile, the J-33 would make 50 hours on a bad day. when the P-80 took to the skies in late 1944. Too bad the US was so slow on bringing the P-80 into service.

And, you are wrong, the FW-190D was far superior to the ME-109G many times over.

We had that discussion back in the day and the 190 is not half es dangerous.

And you were wrong then as well. Had the Germans shut down the 109 line and concentrated on the 190 there would have been a lot more bombers and fighter stopped. It worked out well for the Allies.

I don´t think so. Allied bomber crews had a life expectancy of three flights or so. They simply spammed the bombers all over.

I've heard enough of your cracked history. Have a nice day.

Number of bombers lost by each heavy bomber group in the 8th Air Force during World War II
Missions: 10631
Bombers lost: 4145
8th Air Force Combat Losses in World War II ETO Against the AXIS Powers

Stay classy.

Using your own cite, almost all of the bomber loses listed were from august 1943 to October 1943. What changed? The introduction of Fighter Escort. Then they were reduced even further when the fighter escort doctrine was changed where the fighters were allowed to fly ahead of the bombers and attack the Luftwaffe when they were forming up. In Oct 43, the poor 38 was flying bomber escort staying with the bombers and taking losses themselves while screening the bombers. That worked okay and allowed more bombers to get through. But in November, the fighter escorts were allowed to fly ahead of the bombers. You will notice that the Luftwaffe had serious trouble getting to the bombers and it took them a few months to react to that. The P-51 was still not a factor quite yet. But in Jan 1944, the P-51 was beginning to be a factor and the Fighter Sweeps had begun. The Luftwaffe had also changed their tactics and had started to pick up bombers again. By Mar, the fighter sweep had all but cripple the Luftwaffe so the bombers were largely downed by ground attack. By the time D-Day had come, the Bombers were almost alone with the exception of just a few Luftwaffe fighters. The 262 was about the only effective fighter left with experienced pilots that the Bombers had to contend with. In the 190s and 109s, maybe 1 out of 50 pilots were experience as fighter pilots by then. The papers say the war was lost in March of 1945 but it was really lost in October of 1943.

 

[Daryl Hunt]

It's wings were so thin it could not carry any useful load or any extra fuel. It's like calling a Vette a dump truck. Pure Fighters could be used for light duty other things but when a true multi roled fighter shows up like the P-38 even the P-51 goes back to being a fighter.

For instance, the P-38 could carry 6 500 lb bombs and still have a 750 mile range. The 109 could carry, maybe 2 250 lb bombs and have less than 300 mile range. The 38 could carry 2 1000 lb bombs and fly over 1000 miles or one 2000 lb bomb and a 310 gal drop tank and do over 1200 miles. The 109 couldn't even get off the ground with that type of load even if it had the ability (which it didn't) to carry such a load. And that was on the inner hard points.

The 109 had no outter hard points. while the 38 had 2 The 38 could carry either 2 additional 250 lb bombs or 10 Hi Velocity Rockets. While the 109 could carry only 2 Rockets on fuselage hard points. The 109 used them to attack bombers. The 38 used them to attack anything that moved both in the air and on the ground.

As a camera fighter, there were only 2 worth mentioning and that would be the P-38 and the Mossie. The 109 makes a poor choice because it vibrates like a cheap motels quarter slot bed.

When you bring up the 109, you really need to confine your praise for 1940 to 1943 as a defense fighter and leave the multi roled fighters that went on to win the war alone. BTW, the 190 was a better fighter and closer to a multirole but it still lacked the range.

The 109 was the best plane in whatever war era and since 1936. The 190 was heavily armed but not as agile. It was used to attack bombers while the 109 dealt with the escort. Range and payload don´t have anything to do with range of operations. The 109 can perform any task given, that´s the point.
Of course, more specialized planes can do better as the 109 but not in any fighter role. And, due to capacity limits, only few of the many German models were build in significant numbers. 36000 109 were made and were often the available planes.

The reason why they made that many was because the German war industry was so inept they couldn't afford to take the time to halt production to change over to the FW-190 which was a far superior aircraft. The only reason why the '109 did as well as it did was the superb pilots who flew it, and the inept Russians that they preyed upon. Gunther Rall was a good friend of mine and he loved the '109 because it fit him like a glove, but he also said, that the 190 was superior, he just preferred to keep flying the 109 because he knew all of its quirks.

They did not even dare to switch to the Me 262. The decision was made in 1942. And no, the 190 was not superior, it was different.

No, it was superior in all aspects. The reason why they didn't switch to the 262 is because they could barely keep the ones they had flying. They didn't have the fuel, or the jet engines available to keep them in the air. The German industrial system was corrupt, asnd incompetent. They didn't even enter into full war production until 1945, and by then they were four years too late.

Vast nonsense. Sure, the engines were late but they didn´t know in 1942. The 262 could have produced in series by 1943, nonetheless. The fuel, kerosene, was the easiest to made and is still. The planes were grounded because Adolf demanded them to be converted them into Blitzbombers.

They weren't grounded. When Uncle Adolf was insisting on that, they weren't in service yet. What it did was slow their service date. This was cured by the first flight of the Arado 234 Blitz which had the range and payload that the 262 didn't have. Funny, the Arado was used as a bomber but it was also used as a Recon. It drove the Allies nuts in Italy. The Allies couldn't make a move without the Germans knowing about it with their over flights. Here is a bit of coincidence. The AAF sent 2 YP-80s to Italy during the time that the Ar-234s were doing over flights. Right after the YP-80s arrived the AR-234s ceased their over flights. The P-80 had a top speed of 520 mph while the AR-234 had a top speed of 461. Since the YP-80 was extremely classified the reasons were never published what they were doing there except it was listed as training. But I believe that the AAF and the Luftwaffe knew the real reason. Had the AR-234s continued their over flights I believe we would have had our first Jet to Jet encounter. The 2 sent to England didn't fare so well and the AR-234 over flights continued.