The End of the Christian Right

[Katzndogz]

Now that is what I call some magnificent and creative parsing.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

No, that's not true. None of the Communist administrations ever banned the Orthodox Church. They did put some restrictions on proselytizing but I think they always knew that the Church was too strongly embedded in Russian society to root out. In any case, you seem to be drawing the battle lines in an illusory location.

You forget you’re addressing a conservative, for whom the truth is irrelevant.

Yes, that's confirmation; you're completely misunderstanding where the cultural progressives are coming from. America becoming a completely secular society, or banning religion in general, is not what's happening, any more than a shift from your morality to no morality, which you also seem to believe, erroneously.

No. It's a shift from one religious perspective to another, and from one morality to another. It isn't even a shift away from Christianity as far as the majority of the people are concerned.

The title of this thread is not "The End of Christianity." It's "The End of the Christian RIGHT." There is a difference.

Correct.

Indeed, the realization of a secular America means greater religious freedom for all, where the First Amendment is understood and implemented as intended by the Framers.

 

[Katzndogz]

Secularization will do for America exactly what it has done in every other country that decided to become secular. This isn't a bad thing, not entirely. The Phoenix rose from its own ashes. Maybe America will too.

It's like you really believe on some level that Christians, on the right or in the middle will support a secular country! Why would you have that idea? Where would it come from? If you intend to pit your particular concept of secular patriotism against faith, you are going to lose.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The atheist and the evangelical are banging drums to different discordant tunes.

The influence of the evangelicalism of the Second Great Awakening is coming to a close, as American religiosity continues and evolves into more diverse as well as compatible religious narratives.

Religious influence will never leave the public square and will always be a major part of the private American world.

 

[Katzndogz]

Christians are patriotic, more than any other group because they believe in God Bless America. When secularisim removes God, and the Christian belief of God's blessings, you won't find much left of Christian patriotism.

Not that there is much left to be patriotic FOR right now.

 

[JakeStarkey]

Evangelicals do not represent the great majority of American Christians, and only a minority in the GOP.

Their political influence is dying out, which is a blessing to America and Christianity.

Religious value and influence will always dominate the American experience, rightfully so.

The only who can be sad about this are atheists and evangelicals.

 

[koshergrl]

You're high, aren't you? That statement makes zero sense. Incidentally, I only claim superiority over you and a couple of other trolls who can't create cohesive arguments.

You project your inability to create cohesive counterarguments to incontrovertible proof overthrowing your weak premises. Tis what tis.

You're doing it again. Copy cat.

 

[JakeStarkey]

You're high, aren't you? That statement makes zero sense. Incidentally, I only claim superiority over you and a couple of other trolls who can't create cohesive arguments.

You project your inability to create cohesive counterarguments to incontrovertible proof overthrowing your weak premises. Tis what tis.

You're doing it again. Copy cat.

It's a parody, a mocking, if you will, of your goofy thinking.

 

[koshergrl]

It's not clever enough to be a parody. Instead of answering questions, you simply answer with the same accusations that are leveled against you, instead of supporting your loonier statements.

It's first grade trolling.

 

[Dragon]

Secularization will do for America exactly what it has done in every other country that decided to become secular. This isn't a bad thing, not entirely. The Phoenix rose from its own ashes. Maybe America will too.

I'm still waiting for a real-history example of a society that collapsed due to "moral degeneracy." I know of not a single one. Perhaps you're referring to imaginary societies you made up yourself? Something fictional?

Let's clarify what's meant by a "secular country." In one sense (a secular GOVERNMENT), we've had one ever since the First Amendment was ratified. We have a government based on secular philosophical and legal principles, the ideals of the Enlightenment. We categorically REJECT a government based on religious principles. Always have, and hopefully always will. This is nothing new.

But in another sense, an atheist society or society that is "secular" in every aspect, not just its government, we have never had one and are not heading in that direction as far as I can see. Once again, we are not seeing the end of all religion or all morality. We are seeing the end of YOUR religion and YOUR morality, specifically, or at least its decline to the point where it is no longer a political force. That is absolutely not the same thing.

The Christian right is declining as a political force, to the point where it's ready to disappear. But Christianity remains a very potent force in our society, as do other religions. What's changed is that it no longer supports the same political ideas as before.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It's not clever enough to be a parody. Instead of answering questions, you simply answer with the same accusations that are leveled against you, instead of supporting your loonier statements. It's first grade trolling.

Dear, you are the troll. You have been clear, consistent proof that your assertion is wrong. You are stubbornly immoral in your refusal to confess your error.

You remind me of a new convert to Christ who runs around in her/his born again excitement and does more damage than 20 devils.

 

[Ringel05]

Secularization will do for America exactly what it has done in every other country that decided to become secular. This isn't a bad thing, not entirely. The Phoenix rose from its own ashes. Maybe America will too.

I'm still waiting for a real-history example of a society that collapsed due to "moral degeneracy." I know of not a single one. Perhaps you're referring to imaginary societies you made up yourself? Something fictional?

Let's clarify what's meant by a "secular country." In one sense (a secular GOVERNMENT), we've had one ever since the First Amendment was ratified. We have a government based on secular philosophical and legal principles, the ideals of the Enlightenment. We categorically REJECT a government based on religious principles. Always have, and hopefully always will. This is nothing new.

But in another sense, an atheist society or society that is "secular" in every aspect, not just its government, we have never had one and are not heading in that direction as far as I can see. Once again, we are not seeing the end of all religion or all morality. We are seeing the end of YOUR religion and YOUR morality, specifically, or at least its decline to the point where it is no longer a political force. That is absolutely not the same thing.

The Christian right is declining as a political force, to the point where it's ready to disappear. But Christianity remains a very potent force in our society, as do other religions. What's changed is that it no longer supports the same political ideas as before.

For now, at least until the next great revival.

 

[koshergrl]

It's not clever enough to be a parody. Instead of answering questions, you simply answer with the same accusations that are leveled against you, instead of supporting your loonier statements. It's first grade trolling.

Dear, you are the troll. You have been clear, consistent proof that your assertion is wrong. You are stubbornly immoral in your refusal to confess your error.

You remind me of a new convert to Christ who runs around in her/his born again excitement and does more damage than 20 devils.

Prevaricate. Is it your middle name? You made the assertion(s), you prove them. It's not my job to affirm a negative, dingdong.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It's not clever enough to be a parody. Instead of answering questions, you simply answer with the same accusations that are leveled against you, instead of supporting your loonier statements. It's first grade trolling.

Dear, you are the troll. You have been clear, consistent proof that your assertion is wrong. You are stubbornly immoral in your refusal to confess your error.

You remind me of a new convert to Christ who runs around in her/his born again excitement and does more damage than 20 devils.

Prevaricate. Is it your middle name? You made the assertion(s), you prove them. It's not my job to affirm a negative, dingdong.

Sabbath morning. God's blessings to you this day and every day. Go in peace.

 

[Katzndogz]

The Christian right is not declining as a political force. It is being suppressed by political force, but not declining. No doubt as we, as a people, become more degenerate, the decline of the entire nation become more apparent to outsiders. To the degenerate, they won't see a decline. They will see it as an advance. Progress.

There is a book outlining the process called The Theory of Civilization which examines ancient and even more modern civiilzations that have succumbed. If anyone is really interested in an indepth analysis of the lifecycle of civilizations, that and other treatise on the subject is worth reading.

Admittedly an inescapable fact is that liberals want Christianity to decline. Perhaps to become a quaint recollection of a bygone era. What they fail to see is that as the nation becomes more secular and its practices more reprehensible, Christians will not continue to support it! This is so basic that failure to understand this is astonishing. The liberal will not support a Church, they will not advance a Christian policy. The world accepts their absolute and unfettered freedom to do this. Yet, those very same liberals believe that Christians will support a degenerate people. Christians will fight to preserve the rights of same sex couples to marry. No they won't. Christians will fight with money and votes to advance the cause of unlimited abortion, legalized drugs, or any of the pet philosophies of the left. Or, worse, fend off an invading force. No they won't. Totalitarianism and suppression only goes so far.

Degenerate cultures fall but not only because it is hollowed out leaving a shell of hedonism, but because not enough of its citizens cares whether or not it survives. Or, come to care more that it is overcome.

 

[peach174]

Caligula was a madman and a mass murderer, just like heroes of the left, Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho, Pol Pot, Ortega and Castro...

Took the words right off my keyboard.

That sort of thing is why Uncensored is on my ignore list.

Lenin, Stalin, Mao, Ho, Pol Pot, and Castro are not heroes of the left anymore than Caligula or Nero, or anyway not of the American left. Ortega isn't, either, but he's also not a mass-murderer.

And it's still true that you have not named even ONE civilization that ever fell due to "moral decay." You may do so at your leisure.

There is many who do not read or follow history.
You have to like it, in order to read anything about.
Just like many do not read much science because they are not interested.
What do you think many who do read history keep saying that "if you don't know history it is doomed to repeat itself" ?
Many a Civilization has fallen due to moral decay.

History provides ample illustrations of the disastrous consequences of the collapse of law and order. "In ancient Greece, the first symptoms of disorder were a general loss of respect for tradition and the degradation of the young. Among the early symptoms was the decline of art and entertainment. The philosophers and pundits distorted the medium of communication. Rhetoric became combative and intolerant; intellectuals began to deride and attack all the traditional institutions of Hellenic society."

New thinkers in the society argued for "fundamental change" and called for giving the youth a "voice in society." Without traditional guidelines, the young men grew wild and undisciplined destroying the old order. Slowly Greece devolved into a disreputable and lawless nation. The Romans conquered Greece in 146 B.C. By placing everything under military authority, they were able to restore order and bring back the rule of law.

A similar story can be found in ancient Egypt during the fourth century B.C. Lawlessness and violence crippled the economy, and the nation was in chaos. When Alexander the Great invaded the country in 333 B.C., his first task was to restore order and institute martial law (which he did in a ruthless manner). With the death of Alexander, Egypt returned to its old ways until the Roman Empire brought peace to the region through conquest and martial law.

Four important trends demonstrate cultural decay. They are the "decline of education," the "weakening of cultural foundations," the "loss of respect for tradition," and the "increase in materialism."
Sound Familiar?

Three important trends demonstrate moral decay. They are the "rise in immorality," the "decay of religious belief," and the "devaluing of human life."

Life became cheap in the latter days of the Roman Empire. Burdensome regulation and taxes made manufacturing and trade unprofitable. Families were locked into hereditary trades and vocations allowing little if any vocational choice. Eventually, children were seen as a needless burden and abortion and infanticide became commonplace. In some cases, children were sold into slavery.

Manners and social life fell into debauchery. Under Justinian, entertainment grew bawdier and more bizarre. Orgies and love feasts were common. Homosexuality and bestiality were openly practiced. Under Nero, Christians were blamed for the great fire in Rome and horribly persecuted.

In Greece, the music of the young people became wild and coarse. Popular entertainment was brutal and vulgar. Promiscuity, homosexuality, and drunkenness became a daily part of life. And all moral and social restraints were lost leading to greater decadence.

In Carthage, worship turned from Baal to the earth goddess Tanit. "Sacrifices to the goddess of fertility were supposed to ensure productivity, long life, and even greater profits." Ornately carved funeral monuments depicting infant sacrifice can be seen today along with thousands of tiny stone coffins to infants sacrificed to the pagan goddess.

The parallels to our own nation are striking. No, we don't sacrifice infants to a pagan goddess, but we have aborted nearly 40 million babies on the altar of convenience. And various sexual practices are openly accepted as part of an alternative lifestyle. It's no wonder that many believe our country is a nation in decline.

 

[Katzndogz]

The decline of this country was seen at its inception.


I see an innumerable multitude of men, alike and equal, constantly circling around in pursuit of the petty and banal pleasures with which they glut their souls. Each of them, withdrawn into himself, is almost unaware of the fate of the rest. Mankind, for him, consists in his children and his personal friends. As for the rest of his fellow citizens, they are near enough, but he does not notice them. He touches them but feels nothing. He exists in and for himself, and though he still may have a family, one can at least say that he has not got a fatherland.

Over this kind of man stands an immense, protective power which is alone responsible for securing their enjoyment and watching over their fate. That power is absolute, thoughtful of detail, orderly, provident, and gentle. It would resemble parental authority if, father-like, it tried to prepare its charges for a man’s life, but on the contrary, it only tries to keep them in perpetual childhood. It likes to see the citizens enjoy themselves, provided that they think of nothing but enjoyment. It gladly works for their happiness but wants to be sole agent and judge of it. It provides for their security, foresees and supplies their necessities, facilitates their pleasures, manages their principal concerns, directs their industry, makes rules for their testaments, and divides their inheritances. Why should it not entirely relieve them from the trouble of thinking and all the cares of living?

Thus it daily makes the exercise of free choice less useful and rarer, restricts the activity of free will within a narrower compass, and little by little robs each citizen of the proper use of his own faculties. Equality has prepared men for all this, predisposing them to endure it and often even regard it as beneficial.

Having thus taken each citizen in turn in its powerful grasp and shaped men to its will, government then extends its embrace to include the whole of society. It covers the whole of social life with a network of petty, complicated rules that are both minute and uniform, through which even men of the greatest originality and the most vigorous temperament cannot force their heads above the crowd. It does not break men’s will, but softens, bends, and guides it; it seldom enjoins, but often inhibits, action; it does not destroy anything, but prevents much being born; it is not at all tyrannical, but it hinders, restrains, enervates, stifles, and stultifies so much that in the end each nation is no more than a flock of timid and hardworking animals with the government as its shepherd.

volume 2 of Democracy in America (1840) Alexis de Tocqueville (1805-1859)

 

[JakeStarkey]

The heresies of British evangelism, transferred to America during the 2GA, don't concern me nearly as much today as they did thirty years ago. American far right Christianity has weakened in strength and fallen in numbers, and will continue to do so. After its embarrassment in the Scopes trial and aftermath, the movement lost face but increased in numbers, beginning a new life of political power in the 1980s. Now it loses strength and numbers, and this is good for America, I believe. Christian America is overwhelmingly not of the far right and has repudiated its political aspirations: righteously so, in my belief.

 

[koshergrl]

Got numbers, sparky?

 

[JakeStarkey]

You don't. The results of 08 speak for themselves, as well as the self-destructiveness of last night. Rather than admit they are wrong about Mitt, the far right began pulling down the party in South Carolina. If the far right forces Gingricy onto the GOP as its nominee, Obama will win.