The Debt Ceiling

[Avatar4321]

Playing the game of who will blink first with the debt ceiling is a dangerous game. We have ideologues on both sides that would rather see the country fall, than back down. We have said that our greatest enemy is Russia, or China, or North Korea, or the terrorist but ironically, what may be our greatest enemy is ourselves.

We've always been our own greatest enemies. The fact that we are even having a debt ceiling debate demonstrates we have failed as a nation. We shouldn't be anywhere close to the ceiling.

We need to fight our debt. And i think that wont happen until we all get our personal finances in order. if we do that as individuals, we will have people representing us who will likewise do that.

Our politicians do represent us as a people. The problem isnt with them as much as it is with us.

 

[gautama]

Toroshit,

As usual, you're missing the point, you fucking Obamarrhoidal arsehole.

The point being made that not raising the Debt Ceiling doesn't automatically mean that the country tanks. Mail will function, the Military will get paid, the more important financial obligations will be met etc.......and the LIEBTARDS will be forced to face the Nation with their RIDICULOUS SPENDING BINGE which is NON-SUSTAINABLE BECAUSE AT THE $14 TRILLION+ mark THE COUNTRY IS FUCKING BANKRUPT !!!!

gaytardma

You are a drooling moron with an unhealthy scatological obsession. Are your doctors at the sanatorium aware of this obsession?

I'll explain it to you, gaytardma. But because you're an insane raving lunatic obsessed with what comes out of bodily cavities, I doubt you'll understand it.

The government will spend $3.8 trillion. It will take in $2.2 trillion. That means the government must issue $1.6 trillion in debt this year. If the government does not raise the debt ceiling, it must cut $1.6 trillion from its budget, or $130 billion a month, which is equivalent to 9% of GDP. That means the economy will start to contract at an annualized rate of 11%, double the rate of the contraction of the last recession. $1.6 trillion is not going to suddenly appear out of nowhere to replace that lost spending. The economy would start to contract at a rate faster than it did during the financial crisis.

We are going to spend $200 billion on interest costs this year. Making the highly questionable assumption that the non-governmental economy will still grow 3% this year while the government contracts at 11%, tax revenues will be $2 trillion. $800 billion will go to social security. $800 billion will go to medicare and medicaid. $800 billion will go to defense. On those three things alone, we are at $2.4 trillion. Don't believe me? Here is the budget. So we have to cut $400 billion from social security, medicare, medicaid and defense and every single other thing the government does if we don't raise the debt ceiling.

Now here's where it gets interesting. If I am a large holder of US bonds, i.e. a foreigner, who do I think is going to get stiffed? Old people? The troops? Or bondholders? Who has more political capital?

In fact, it doesn't even matter what the answer is. All I, as a large bondholder, have to do is ponder that question. Because if I think I, as a bondholder, am further down the priority list compared to old people and the troops, I'm not going to stick around. I'm going to start selling my bonds, which will mean higher interest rates. This is where you could get a dollar crisis if there is a run on US bonds because bondholders think they're going to get stiffed.

The risk is enormous.

So you see, gaytardma, the debt ceiling is going to get raised. Drooling insane nutters like yourself aside, neither the Republican party nor the Democrat party are that stupid.

Toroshit,

You puke out some Obamarrhoidal numbers then set the rules for your fantasy game.

WHO THE FUCK DO YOU THINK YOU'RE KIDDING ?!?!?

You want the real numbers ?????

You want to know how the game SHOULD be played out so we get responsible cuts WITHOUT breaking the Debt Ceiling ????

If you are sincere about that, then you'll read Dick Morris's books: "REVOLT", "CATASTROPHE", for starters.

THEN get back to me. Until then you'll be treated like a meaningless fart, which you are.

Republicans should be following Dick Morris's recommendations for bringing you Obamarrhoidal arseholes into line WITHOUT BANKRUPTING THE COUNTRY......which you arseholes are on the brink of doing.

As to where to cut that somehow you've got sudden amnesia while compiling your fucking list .....Answer: START WITH OBAMACARE !!! Then the freebies to the Giant Corporations GM, GE, not only in tax freebies but phoney enterprises.....all for subsidizing the election of the Piece of Shit, or using the profits that are in TRILLIONS that "The Greenery Projects" are being given to the Oily Sheiks and our enemies (PRACTICALLY ALL OFF-SHORE & IN-SHORE DRILLING IS AT A SCREECHING STOP !!!........then the Trillions on giveaway projects like HUNDREDS of billions to black farmers who may just THINK they have been discriminated against, or the billions to the rich because they have acreage invested in "GREENERY" ex: Springstein, with his hundreds of acres paying ZERO tax, while some unrelated little ole grandma neighbor paid $6000 in taxes, Planned Parenthood where our taxes are funding primarily ABORTION MILLS around the country when more than 50% of our nation are vociferously against it, Public Broadcasting (A LibDem enterprise), or Phoney Gore's Bogus Climate Control which made him into a billionaire (or close to it) ...... the list goes on, & on, & on...

Bottom line: will there be painful cuts ???? Answer: OF COURSE, THERE WILL BE PAINFUL CUTS. If YOU are on the verge of bankruptcy, a lot of painful decisions MUST be made.

 

[EriktheRed]

 

[editec]

Don't think of it as a debt ceiling.

Think of it as a debt ceiling suggestion.

It's way less painful if you just diminish your expectations from this government.

They ARE going to bankrupt this nation.

That's the plan.

Get used to it.

 

[Toro]

gaytardma

Your unhinged rants demonstrate why you are in that padded cell. You have a tenuous grip on reality. Not raising the debt ceiling means not issuing any more debt which means, if you are not going to raise taxes or default on the debt, that you have to start cutting $1,600,000,000,000 right now.

We do not given away "trillions" of dollars to giveaway projects every year, you racist piece of trash. The budget - which I have given you but you refuse to look at - means that if we cut every single dollar from everything else, we would still have to find $400 billion from social security, Medicare and defense. Do you understand that gaytardma? Obamacare costs us $0 right now. By not raising the debt ceiling, we would have to cut $1.6 trillion right now.

So rant and rave about "Negros" and Planned Parenthood and other inconsequential items that feed your psychosis, not raising the debt ceiling could have catastrophic consequences to the economy. That is different than developing a budgetary path to get this country's fiscal house in order over time but I don't expect droolers like yourself to grasp that.

 

[signelect]

I am retiring next year, lets take all the congressmen who took money that wasn't theirs to spend and put them in jail. Stealing the SS and medicare money to spend on the pet projects that gets them reelected and fattens their wallets should have to pay. Not one congressman has offered to take a cut in pay or benefits. Shame on them and shame on us for electing them.

 

[gautama]

gaytardma

Your unhinged rants demonstrate why you are in that padded cell. You have a tenuous grip on reality. Not raising the debt ceiling means not issuing any more debt which means, if you are not going to raise taxes or default on the debt, that you have to start cutting $1,600,000,000,000 right now.

We do not given away "trillions" of dollars to giveaway projects every year, you racist piece of trash. The budget - which I have given you but you refuse to look at - means that if we cut every single dollar from everything else, we would still have to find $400 billion from social security, Medicare and defense. Do you understand that gaytardma? Obamacare costs us $0 right now. By not raising the debt ceiling, we would have to cut $1.6 trillion right now.

So rant and rave about "Negros" and Planned Parenthood and other inconsequential items that feed your psychosis, not raising the debt ceiling could have catastrophic consequences to the economy. That is different than developing a budgetary path to get this country's fiscal house in order over time but I don't expect droolers like yourself to grasp that.

Toroshit,

As stated, you are Toroshit.....and you'll always be Toroshit.

Read Dick Morris's books "REVOLT" and "CATASTROPHE" then publicly apologize
for being an Obamarrhoidal arsehole who persists in the CONTINUOUS INCREASE in spending while in a Bankruptcy.

 

[Toro]

gaytardma

Don't tell me to read a book you idiot. Read the budget. It's right there for you to see but you'd rather wallow in your callow ignorance.

This isn't about fixing the budget. This is about raising the debt ceiling right now. We have to fix the fiscal mess, and we are going to have cut spending. But not raising the debt ceiling is like playing russian roulette knowing there are five loaded chambers and hoping the sixth is empty. It's crazy and that's why it's going to get done.

 

[smchugh]

This isn't about fixing the budget. This is about raising the debt ceiling right now. We have to fix the fiscal mess, and we are going to have cut spending.

Yes, the current issue is whether to raise the debt ceiling or not, but it is essentially linked to spending cuts and the budget crisis. When politicians are given more money to spend, they spend what's available and more. This is clearly evident as we are $14.287 tillion in debt.

There needs to be a strong commitment to spending cuts and some type of increased taxation attached to the debt ceiling bill. All of these issues are interconnected and you cannot solve a single part of any of these problems unless you address them all. There needs to be a balance with spending cuts and taxation, raising the debt ceiling to avoid fiscal downturns now and responsible budget decisions regarding the future, and short term action and long term commitment.

The burden needs to be spread out over all the citizens of the United States. It should not be placed on simply the wealthy or the large corporations. We're all in this together and for the entire country to move in a positive direction, everyone needs to be on board. We all have to make sacrificies and politicians need to start encluding themselves with the rest of us who need to start being responsible and fixing these problems.

 

[Toro]

smchugh

You are far too reasonable. You make too much sense.

 

[gautama]

gaytardma

Don't tell me to read a book you idiot. Read the budget. It's right there for you to see but you'd rather wallow in your callow ignorance.

This isn't about fixing the budget. This is about raising the debt ceiling right now. We have to fix the fiscal mess, and we are going to have cut spending. But not raising the debt ceiling is like playing russian roulette knowing there are five loaded chambers and hoping the sixth is empty. It's crazy and that's why it's going to get done.

Toroshit,

You really should yank yourself outa the toroshit you're wallowing in.

It's 2/3 vs 1/3.

Senate, Prez vs House.

The irrefutable bottom line: There's no way you Obamarrhoidal arseholes will cut ANYTHING much less that ridiculous Obamacare unless you are forced to with the Debt Ceiling.

It's absolutely LUDICROUS how the POS got any credit at all in the latest round, when he was not only for NO CUTS......but more spending. Fucking frustrating.

 

[Mr Liberty]

I have not seen a change in the federal governments policy ever. They will raise the debt ceiling. They always have. They will continue to spend. Nothing will change until the economy collapses.
The stock market is about to crash. The CAPE is 43% higher than it's long term historical average. It has only been that high four times in its history, the late 1920s, the 1960s, 1998 and 2007. The crash probably won't be tomorrow, will likely happen by July, definitely happen by Christmas. The market is disconnect from main street. There is too little fear, too much greed. Warren Buffett said" be fearful when everyone else is greedy. Be greedy when everyone else is fearful."
I do not believe the federal government nor the federal reserve will change their policies. We are headed for a financial disaster. The things that need to be done are not politically obtainable.

 

[Flopper]

Toroshit,

As usual, you're missing the point, you fucking Obamarrhoidal arsehole.

The point being made that not raising the Debt Ceiling doesn't automatically mean that the country tanks. Mail will function, the Military will get paid, the more important financial obligations will be met etc.......and the LIEBTARDS will be forced to face the Nation with their RIDICULOUS SPENDING BINGE which is NON-SUSTAINABLE BECAUSE AT THE $14 TRILLION+ mark THE COUNTRY IS FUCKING BANKRUPT !!!!

gaytardma

You are a drooling moron with an unhealthy scatological obsession. Are your doctors at the sanatorium aware of this obsession?

I'll explain it to you, gaytardma. But because you're an insane raving lunatic obsessed with what comes out of bodily cavities, I doubt you'll understand it.

The government will spend $3.8 trillion. It will take in $2.2 trillion. That means the government must issue $1.6 trillion in debt this year. If the government does not raise the debt ceiling, it must cut $1.6 trillion from its budget, or $130 billion a month, which is equivalent to 9% of GDP. That means the economy will start to contract at an annualized rate of 11%, double the rate of the contraction of the last recession. $1.6 trillion is not going to suddenly appear out of nowhere to replace that lost spending. The economy would start to contract at a rate faster than it did during the financial crisis.

We are going to spend $200 billion on interest costs this year. Making the highly questionable assumption that the non-governmental economy will still grow 3% this year while the government contracts at 11%, tax revenues will be $2 trillion. $800 billion will go to social security. $800 billion will go to medicare and medicaid. $800 billion will go to defense. On those three things alone, we are at $2.4 trillion. Don't believe me? Here is the budget. So we have to cut $400 billion from social security, medicare, medicaid and defense and every single other thing the government does if we don't raise the debt ceiling.

Now here's where it gets interesting. If I am a large holder of US bonds, i.e. a foreigner, who do I think is going to get stiffed? Old people? The troops? Or bondholders? Who has more political capital?

In fact, it doesn't even matter what the answer is. All I, as a large bondholder, have to do is ponder that question. Because if I think I, as a bondholder, am further down the priority list compared to old people and the troops, I'm not going to stick around. I'm going to start selling my bonds, which will mean higher interest rates. This is where you could get a dollar crisis if there is a run on US bonds because bondholders think they're going to get stiffed.

The risk is enormous.

So you see, gaytardma, the debt ceiling is going to get raised. Drooling insane nutters like yourself aside, neither the Republican party nor the Democrat party are that stupid.

If the holders of treasury notes and bills believe there is any chance that the US government might default, they will dump their US debt obligations. The results would be catastrophic for the US as well as the world economy. Most debts are secured by some kind of collateral. US debt is secured only by the full faith and credit of the United States government. Once that faith is broken, it can not be fixed.

 

[Flopper]

This isn't about fixing the budget. This is about raising the debt ceiling right now. We have to fix the fiscal mess, and we are going to have cut spending.

Yes, the current issue is whether to raise the debt ceiling or not, but it is essentially linked to spending cuts and the budget crisis. When politicians are given more money to spend, they spend what's available and more. This is clearly evident as we are $14.287 tillion in debt.

There needs to be a strong commitment to spending cuts and some type of increased taxation attached to the debt ceiling bill. All of these issues are interconnected and you cannot solve a single part of any of these problems unless you address them all. There needs to be a balance with spending cuts and taxation, raising the debt ceiling to avoid fiscal downturns now and responsible budget decisions regarding the future, and short term action and long term commitment.

The burden needs to be spread out over all the citizens of the United States. It should not be placed on simply the wealthy or the large corporations. We're all in this together and for the entire country to move in a positive direction, everyone needs to be on board. We all have to make sacrificies and politicians need to start encluding themselves with the rest of us who need to start being responsible and fixing these problems.

You use the terms “strong commitment” and “responsible budget decisions”. Remember, we are talking about Congress.

 

[JWBooth]

If the holders of treasury notes and bills believe there is any chance that the US government might default, they will dump their US debt obligations. The results would be catastrophic for the US as well as the world economy. Most debts are secured by some kind of collateral. US debt is secured only by the full faith and credit of the United States government. Once that faith is broken, it can not be fixed.

Which is a will-o-the-wisp along with believing in Santa, Easter bunny, tooth fairy.
Like a Ponzi scheme writ large the suckers are keeping it alive, but there are fewer and fewer suckers every day.

 

[hortysir]

It's not about "wanting to see the country fail"

You can't be "fiscally responsible" by raising the debt limit.




My credit cards are maxed out.
Does it make sense to go and borrow money to pay them down so I can go out and buy more stuff?






WE ARE FUCKING BROKE.

Turn off the lights, shut the door, and flip the sign

 

[Flopper]

If the holders of treasury notes and bills believe there is any chance that the US government might default, they will dump their US debt obligations. The results would be catastrophic for the US as well as the world economy. Most debts are secured by some kind of collateral. US debt is secured only by the full faith and credit of the United States government. Once that faith is broken, it can not be fixed.

Which is a will-o-the-wisp along with believing in Santa, Easter bunny, tooth fairy.
Like a Ponzi scheme writ large the suckers are keeping it alive, but there are fewer and fewer suckers every day.

You are saying that full faith and credit of United States is worthless?

 

[JWBooth]

If the holders of treasury notes and bills believe there is any chance that the US government might default, they will dump their US debt obligations. The results would be catastrophic for the US as well as the world economy. Most debts are secured by some kind of collateral. US debt is secured only by the full faith and credit of the United States government. Once that faith is broken, it can not be fixed.

Which is a will-o-the-wisp along with believing in Santa, Easter bunny, tooth fairy.
Like a Ponzi scheme writ large the suckers are keeping it alive, but there are fewer and fewer suckers every day.

You are saying that full faith and credit of United States is worthless?

I need to spell it out? That monopoly money in your wallet. It's backed by the full faith and credit of the state. What is its buying power now as opposed to 5 years ago, 50 years ago?

 

[Flopper]

It's not about "wanting to see the country fail"

You can't be "fiscally responsible" by raising the debt limit.




My credit cards are maxed out.
Does it make sense to go and borrow money to pay them down so I can go out and buy more stuff?






WE ARE FUCKING BROKE.

Turn off the lights, shut the door, and flip the sign

If the debt ceiling is not raised, the government will default on its financial obligations. If you run out of money, can’t increase your income, and can’t borrow, what do you do? Your creditors lineup and you pay what you can and the rest have to wait. The same thing would happen with the government but it’s quite a bit more serious. For example, the government pays the troops fighting overseas, but doesn’t pay contractors. Then just about everyone who has US Savings bond turns them in for redemption. About 12 trillion dollars in treasury bills and notes would be dumped on the open market. In the US and abroad, US dollars would be exchanged for just about any currency driving the value of the dollar down to pennies bringing on hyperinflation. I don’t think I need to go any further with this doomsday scenario, as it will never happen because no political party would be foolish enough to pursue this course. But what could happen in this high stakes game of chicken, interest rates on treasuries followed by other interest rates could sky rocket, pushing the economy into another recession.

It is responsible to spend more than you earn, but it is far more irresponsible to refuse to pay your creditors.

 

[Flopper]

Which is a will-o-the-wisp along with believing in Santa, Easter bunny, tooth fairy.
Like a Ponzi scheme writ large the suckers are keeping it alive, but there are fewer and fewer suckers every day.

You are saying that full faith and credit of United States is worthless?

I need to spell it out? That monopoly money in your wallet. It's backed by the full faith and credit of the state. What is its buying power now as opposed to 5 years ago, 50 years ago?

The full faith and credit clause in relation to Federal Reserve Notes, which is what’s in your wallet means that the government is guaranteeing that you can use that note in commerce to be exchanged for goods and services. There is no guarantee as to the value. For governmental financial obligation, the clause means the the government is guaranteeing the principal and interest will be paid as promised.

In some cases the US dollar will buy more goods or services than in the past. For example flying in general is cheaper than it was 10 years ago as are computers, music CD's, and buying a home, but there are a lot things more expensive due to inflation. There are many causes for inflation. One being government creating excess money to deal with crisis and spending. But there are other factors such as rising labor cost and rising cost of raw materials.