The Crusades: Why are we still fighting them?

[Kalam]

It is pertinent because of the two religions, I see Christianity as the far more tolerant. You as a Muslim are welcome among Christians and will not be punished for practicing your faith or trying to 'sell' it to a Christian. In no predominantly Muslim country I know of would I, a Christian, be able to openly practice my faith.

Then you haven't done your research. Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Indonesia, Bosnia, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Tunisia, Guinea, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Chad, Albania, Oman, Kosovo, Gambia, Bahrain, Djibouti... some of these countries are afflicted by ethnic tensions but none have laws on the books that forbid Christians from worshipping freely. Many guarantee this right in their constitutions. None of this matters, however, because this discussion pertains to Shari'ah, which has not been fully implemented for many centuries now.

I would be forbidden from trying to 'sell' it to a Muslim, and in many countries the penalty for attempting such would be quite severe. Christians long ago gave up attempting to officially shame or punish people into behaving as Christians.

Christians also gave up their religiosity. Your community experienced an increase in tolerance and prosperity when they began prying loose the grip that the Church maintained on their lives; mine were most prosperous and tolerant when Islam was the law of the land. Compare the status of religious minorities in 8th-9th century Spain to their status in Christian Europe during that same period, for example.

So that goes to my question. You say that it is the intention of Islam that all people eventually be Muslim and that will be via attraction. And in that interest, I suppose it is in the interest of Islam to suppress activity of all other religions wherever it is possible for them to do that.

Incorrect. The affairs of non-Muslims don't concern us unless they insist on involving themselves in ours. They have the right to worship freely just as we do.

So would you say that Islam mostly does not approve of Christians who see it as their primary purpose in life to lead others to Christ?

Yes, of course, as I imagine Christianity disapproves of Muslims who attempt to lead Christians to Islam. A religious group that doesn't have this sort of attitude is suicidal.

Would you, as a Muslim, deny them permission or ability to do that freely and without fear?

It depends on the situation. Do I care if a Jehovah's Witness distributes literature in American suburbia? Nope. Do I care if American soldiers distribute Bibles in Afghanistan? Yes, I do.

 

[Newby]

Hello my friend, RGS

You make some good points.

Truth is that as long as I meet Muslims who are peaceful and tolerant I won't assume the religion is inherently intolerant.

That doesn't mean I'm going to travel to Iran anytime soon.

So, "most" Muslims are peaceful but you don't want to go to a "mostly" Muslim country because you might get hurt. This isn't adding up.

Ya, she defends Muslims while admitting she is afraid of them and ATTACKS Christians with wild claims the US is becoming a theocracy.

Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet. Islam and muslims are far more judgmental of the gay lifestyle than most christians are. You will be killed outright for admitting you're gay in some muslim countries, there's no comparison in my opinion.

 

[Sky Dancer]

So, "most" Muslims are peaceful but you don't want to go to a "mostly" Muslim country because you might get hurt. This isn't adding up.

Ya, she defends Muslims while admitting she is afraid of them and ATTACKS Christians with wild claims the US is becoming a theocracy.

Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet. Islam and muslims are far more judgmental of the gay lifestyle than most christians are. You will be killed outright for admitting you're gay in some muslim countries, there's no comparison in my opinion.

It's Christians (Catholics and LDS from out of state into California for Prop *) that pour money and resources into defeating marriage equality legislation in this country, not Muslims. Luckily, my partner of 25 years and I were married during the window in California when it was legal.

 

[Newby]

Ya, she defends Muslims while admitting she is afraid of them and ATTACKS Christians with wild claims the US is becoming a theocracy.

Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet. Islam and muslims are far more judgmental of the gay lifestyle than most christians are. You will be killed outright for admitting you're gay in some muslim countries, there's no comparison in my opinion.

It's Christians (Catholics and LDS from out of state into California for Prop *) that pour money and resources into defeating marriage equality legislation in this country, not Muslims.

So, that somehow equates to them being worse than the muslims who will kill you should you venture to their country?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yeah, I haven't figured that one out yet. Islam and muslims are far more judgmental of the gay lifestyle than most christians are. You will be killed outright for admitting you're gay in some muslim countries, there's no comparison in my opinion.

It's Christians (Catholics and LDS from out of state into California for Prop *) that pour money and resources into defeating marriage equality legislation in this country, not Muslims.

So, that somehow equates to them being worse than the muslims who will kill you should you venture to their country?

Christians in America who are organizing against marriage equality legislation impact my life more than Muslims in other parts of the world. Try seeing it from my perspective.

 

[Newby]

It's Christians (Catholics and LDS from out of state into California for Prop *) that pour money and resources into defeating marriage equality legislation in this country, not Muslims.

So, that somehow equates to them being worse than the muslims who will kill you should you venture to their country?

Christians in America who are organizing against marriage equality legislation impact my life more than Muslims in other parts of the world.

Perhaps right now they do, but that can change, and if that should happen, you'll wish you had the christians back. Do you think should the muslims be a majority in this country that they wouldn't be doing the same or worse?

 

[Sky Dancer]

So, that somehow equates to them being worse than the muslims who will kill you should you venture to their country?

Christians in America who are organizing against marriage equality legislation impact my life more than Muslims in other parts of the world.

Perhaps right now they do, but that can change, and if that should happen, you'll wish you had the christians back. Do you think should the muslims be a majority in this country that they wouldn't be doing the same or worse?

I don't understand this sentence. Christians in America, particularly right wing evaneglicals, Catholics and LDS work very hard politically to defeat marriage equality. They don't leave gay people alone. LDS made defeating civil marriage equality a national priority. Muslims in America leave me in peace.

 

[Newby]

Christians in America who are organizing against marriage equality legislation impact my life more than Muslims in other parts of the world.

Perhaps right now they do, but that can change, and if that should happen, you'll wish you had the christians back. Do you think should the muslims be a majority in this country that they wouldn't be doing the same or worse?

I don't understand this sentence. Christians in America, particularly right wing evaneglicals, Catholics and LDS work very hard politically to defeat marriage equality. They don't leave gay people alone. LDS made defeating civil marriage equality a national priority. Muslims in America leave me in peace.

Because they have no means to persecute you here, just because they leave you in peace doesn't mean they're tolerant of you.

So you're seriously making a statement that the Islamic religion is more tolerant of gays than the christian religion? That's your opinion?

Ask your buddy Kalam if his religion would be tolerant of you and allow you to marry.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Perhaps right now they do, but that can change, and if that should happen, you'll wish you had the christians back. Do you think should the muslims be a majority in this country that they wouldn't be doing the same or worse?

I don't understand this sentence. Christians in America, particularly right wing evaneglicals, Catholics and LDS work very hard politically to defeat marriage equality. They don't leave gay people alone. LDS made defeating civil marriage equality a national priority. Muslims in America leave me in peace.

Because they have no means to persecute you here, just because they leave you in peace doesn't mean they're tolerant of you.

So you're seriously making a statement that the Islamic religion is more tolerant of gays than the christian religion? That's your opinion?

Ask your buddy Kalam if his religion would be tolerant of you and allow you to marry.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm saying my day to day life in America is more impacted by the Christian right than Muslims.

Kalam is not my 'buddy'. I put Gadawg in the buddy category. He's my kind of Christian.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I don't understand this sentence. Christians in America, particularly right wing evaneglicals, Catholics and LDS work very hard politically to defeat marriage equality. They don't leave gay people alone. LDS made defeating civil marriage equality a national priority. Muslims in America leave me in peace.

Because they have no means to persecute you here, just because they leave you in peace doesn't mean they're tolerant of you.

So you're seriously making a statement that the Islamic religion is more tolerant of gays than the christian religion? That's your opinion?

Ask your buddy Kalam if his religion would be tolerant of you and allow you to marry.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm saying my day to day life in America is more impacted by the Christian right than Muslims.

Kalam is not my 'buddy'. I put Gadawg in the buddy category. He's my kind of Christian.

You proudly display your ignorance. You ATTACK Christians cause some of them are against gay marriage while defending Islam where they PUT TO DEATH gay people and then say but golly they don't kill me here so they are safer.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

It is pertinent because of the two religions, I see Christianity as the far more tolerant. You as a Muslim are welcome among Christians and will not be punished for practicing your faith or trying to 'sell' it to a Christian. In no predominantly Muslim country I know of would I, a Christian, be able to openly practice my faith.

Then you haven't done your research. Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Indonesia, Bosnia, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Tunisia, Guinea, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Chad, Albania, Oman, Kosovo, Gambia, Bahrain, Djibouti... some of these countries are afflicted by ethnic tensions but none have laws on the books that forbid Christians from worshipping freely. Many guarantee this right in their constitutions. None of this matters, however, because this discussion pertains to Shari'ah, which has not been fully implemented for many centuries now.

I would be forbidden from trying to 'sell' it to a Muslim, and in many countries the penalty for attempting such would be quite severe. Christians long ago gave up attempting to officially shame or punish people into behaving as Christians.

Christians also gave up their religiosity. Your community experienced an increase in tolerance and prosperity when they began prying loose the grip that the Church maintained on their lives; mine were most prosperous and tolerant when Islam was the law of the land. Compare the status of religious minorities in 8th-9th century Spain to their status in Christian Europe during that same period, for example.


Incorrect. The affairs of non-Muslims don't concern us unless they insist on involving themselves in ours. They have the right to worship freely just as we do.

So would you say that Islam mostly does not approve of Christians who see it as their primary purpose in life to lead others to Christ?

Yes, of course, as I imagine Christianity disapproves of Muslims who attempt to lead Christians to Islam. A religious group that doesn't have this sort of attitude is suicidal.

Would you, as a Muslim, deny them permission or ability to do that freely and without fear?

It depends on the situation. Do I care if a Jehovah's Witness distributes literature in American suburbia? Nope. Do I care if American soldiers distribute Bibles in Afghanistan? Yes, I do.

You are an outright liar. Go ahead dumb ass explain to us how the Countries you listed allow freedom of religion while denying any religion other then Islam the following rights.... freedom to worship publicly, freedom to discuss ones religion in public, freedom to celebrate religious holidays in public, freedom to openly carry their religious books and text in public, freedom to construct religious structures, Freedom to be a citizen of said Country if not Muslim, freedom from persecution by Islamic religious laws and the list goes on.

 

[Kalam]

Ask your buddy Kalam if his religion would be tolerant of you and allow you to marry.

I could care less what homosexuals do in the privacy of their own homes. I'm only in conflict with those homosexuals who pretend that their lifestyle is compatible with Islam, and our conflict is purely ideological. Executing people simply because they're homosexuals is absurd.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Because they have no means to persecute you here, just because they leave you in peace doesn't mean they're tolerant of you.

So you're seriously making a statement that the Islamic religion is more tolerant of gays than the christian religion? That's your opinion?

Ask your buddy Kalam if his religion would be tolerant of you and allow you to marry.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm saying my day to day life in America is more impacted by the Christian right than Muslims.

Kalam is not my 'buddy'. I put Gadawg in the buddy category. He's my kind of Christian.

You proudly display your ignorance. You ATTACK Christians cause some of them are against gay marriage while defending Islam where they PUT TO DEATH gay people and then say but golly they don't kill me here so they are safer.

I'm not attacking Christians. I'm stating the truth. The Christian Right is organizing against marriage equality in America. That issue impacts my daily life.

Muslims Americans don't declare it a national priority to fight civil marriage equality in my state. The LDS does. The Catholic Church does. Right wing evaneglicals do.

 

[Kalam]

It is pertinent because of the two religions, I see Christianity as the far more tolerant. You as a Muslim are welcome among Christians and will not be punished for practicing your faith or trying to 'sell' it to a Christian. In no predominantly Muslim country I know of would I, a Christian, be able to openly practice my faith.

Then you haven't done your research. Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Indonesia, Bosnia, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Tunisia, Guinea, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Chad, Albania, Oman, Kosovo, Gambia, Bahrain, Djibouti... some of these countries are afflicted by ethnic tensions but none have laws on the books that forbid Christians from worshipping freely. Many guarantee this right in their constitutions. None of this matters, however, because this discussion pertains to Shari'ah, which has not been fully implemented for many centuries now.


Christians also gave up their religiosity. Your community experienced an increase in tolerance and prosperity when they began prying loose the grip that the Church maintained on their lives; mine were most prosperous and tolerant when Islam was the law of the land. Compare the status of religious minorities in 8th-9th century Spain to their status in Christian Europe during that same period, for example.


Incorrect. The affairs of non-Muslims don't concern us unless they insist on involving themselves in ours. They have the right to worship freely just as we do.


Yes, of course, as I imagine Christianity disapproves of Muslims who attempt to lead Christians to Islam. A religious group that doesn't have this sort of attitude is suicidal.

Would you, as a Muslim, deny them permission or ability to do that freely and without fear?

It depends on the situation. Do I care if a Jehovah's Witness distributes literature in American suburbia? Nope. Do I care if American soldiers distribute Bibles in Afghanistan? Yes, I do.

You are an outright liar. Go ahead dumb ass explain to us how the Countries you listed allow freedom of religion while denying any religion other then Islam the following rights.... freedom to worship publicly, freedom to discuss ones religion in public, freedom to celebrate religious holidays in public, freedom to openly carry their religious books and text in public, freedom to construct religious structures, Freedom to be a citizen of said Country if not Muslim, freedom from persecution by Islamic religious laws and the list goes on.

Most of the countries I listed have secular governments. If I'm an outright liar, proving me wrong shouldn't require much effort. I wouldn't be surprised if I am in one or two cases; I didn't exactly read through each country's legal code.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I would like to thank the United Church of Christ for supporting marriage equality. Thanks Unitarians. And all others including Clergy for Marriage Equality.

The Rev. Amy Butler, Calvary Baptist Church

The Rev. Karen Brau, Luther Place Church

The Rev. Kendal Brown, City of Refuge Church of Greater Washington

The Rev. Mari E. Castellanos, United Church of Christ

The Rev. Rainey Cheeks, Inner Light Ministries

The Rev. Graylan Hagler, Plymouth Congregational United Church of Christ

The Rev. Robert M. Hardies, All Souls Church, Unitarian

The Rev. Cedric Harmon, City of Refuge of Greater Washington

The Rev. Nathan Harris, Lincoln Temple United Church of Christ

The Rev. Ronald E. Hopson, First Congregational United Church of Christ

The Rev. Steve Huber, The Washington National Cathedral

Canon Missioner Patricia Riley Johnson, Washington National Cathedral

The Rev. Jeff Krehbiel, Church of the Pilgrims

The Rev. Luis Leon, St. John's Church, Lafayette Square

The Rev. Dyan Abena McCray, Unity Fellowship Church

Rabbi Toby H. Manewith, Congregation Bet Mishpachah

The Rev. Noemi Mena, National City Christian Church

The Rev. Alton B. Pollard, Howard University School of Divinity

The Rev. Louis Shockley, Jr., Asbury United Methodist Church

The Rev. Dean Snyder, Foundry United Methodist Church

The Rev. Christine Y. Wiley, Covenant Baptist Church

The Rev. Dennis W. Wiley, Covenant Baptist Church
http://www.clergyformarriage.com/read.html

 

[Sky Dancer]

Religious Opposition To LGBT Equality Softening | Religion Dispatches

 

[Foxfyre]

It is pertinent because of the two religions, I see Christianity as the far more tolerant. You as a Muslim are welcome among Christians and will not be punished for practicing your faith or trying to 'sell' it to a Christian. In no predominantly Muslim country I know of would I, a Christian, be able to openly practice my faith.

Then you haven't done your research. Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Indonesia, Bosnia, Nigeria, Egypt, Iran, Morocco, Iraq, Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Niger, Burkina Faso, Mali, Senegal, Tunisia, Guinea, Azerbaijan, Tajikistan, Sierra Leone, Libya, Jordan, Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenistan, Chad, Albania, Oman, Kosovo, Gambia, Bahrain, Djibouti... some of these countries are afflicted by ethnic tensions but none have laws on the books that forbid Christians from worshipping freely. Many guarantee this right in their constitutions. None of this matters, however, because this discussion pertains to Shari'ah, which has not been fully implemented for many centuries now.

Well being personally acquainted with or having heard from or read the writings of missionaries to most of these places, they all agree that the 'official published policy' and the actual practice is two different things. In America you are free to explain your religion to anybody anywhere you want to and no one will tell you that you can't. There will be no repercussions if you invite Christians, Jews, Buddhists, or whomever to attend your mosque or any mosque or go hear an Islamic speaker or whatever. Parents might object to your aggressively soliciting their children as they would object to anybody else doing so of any faith, including Christian. But there is complete freedom of religion here and that means anybody can proselyte as much as they want to do that.

I think in NONE of the countries you listed would I be free to ask a group of Muslims to come hear a Christian speaker nor would I be free to give my witness for Christ.

I would be forbidden from trying to 'sell' it to a Muslim, and in many countries the penalty for attempting such would be quite severe. Christians long ago gave up attempting to officially shame or punish people into behaving as Christians.

Christians also gave up their religiosity. Your community experienced an increase in tolerance and prosperity when they began prying loose the grip that the Church maintained on their lives; mine were most prosperous and tolerant when Islam was the law of the land. Compare the status of religious minorities in 8th-9th century Spain to their status in Christian Europe during that same period, for example.

Christianity however has evolved and discarded its more oppressive and punative ways. Through reflection and revelation, Christians have learned tolerance and to live peacefully with those of other faiths as their numbers grew. There are far more Christians as a percentage of the world population now than there were in the 8th and 9th century, and yet Christians are far more accepting and there is no longer any attempt to put any nation, much less the world, under Christian rule. We no longer attempt to do God's job for him.

Conversely, the more Muslims there are, it seems the more they are determined to put a nation or the world under Islamic rule, and the less tolerant they become.

Incorrect. The affairs of non-Muslims don't concern us unless they insist on involving themselves in ours. They have the right to worship freely just as we do.

As I have not been everywhere nor know of every place, I don't know whether that might be the case in some places. But as I previously said, to worship freely is not the same thing as worshiping openly. And if a Christian is not free to explain his faith to a Muslim in those places, then there is little religious freedom.

So would you say that Islam mostly does not approve of Christians who see it as their primary purpose in life to lead others to Christ?

Yes, of course, as I imagine Christianity disapproves of Muslims who attempt to lead Christians to Islam. A religious group that doesn't have this sort of attitude is suicidal.

Disapprove of Muslim who attempt to lead Christians to Islam? Not at all. If Christianity can't stand up to scrutiny and its truths cannot be shown to be superior to other truths, then it does not deserve to exist. But then I'm one who invites the Jehovah Witnesses in for a chat when I'm bored. Usually they aren't allowed to return to my house after such a chat though.

Would you, as a Muslim, deny them permission or ability to do that freely and without fear?

It depends on the situation. Do I care if a Jehovah's Witness distributes literature in American suburbia? Nope. Do I care if American soldiers distribute Bibles in Afghanistan? Yes, I do.

So why would you object to anybody distributing Bibles to those who would like to have one in Afghanistan if you are tolerant of other religions? We don't object to anybody distributing the Qu'ran here in our predominantly Christian nation. Probably a number of Americans would like to see what's in it. I actually bought one to add to my library. And anybody has full right here to say no thank you if they don't want one.

Do you think Islam might come out looking bad in the face of Christian beliefs?

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think it's disrespectful to other religions to claim your own is superior. That's how we end up going to war.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

I think it's disrespectful to other religions to claim your own is superior.

I think it is disrespectful of a religion that does not condone murder, imprisonment, intolerance of other religions to be called worse then a religion that does those things, and you KEEP doing it, all because some people oppose same sex marriage. YOU admit in Muslim Countries the argument would never come up because they would just murder you or imprison you, you admit Muslim countries are religiously intolerant, yet you KEEP claiming Christians are worse simply because some oppose same sex marriage.

Talk about RETARDED.

 

[FA_Q2]

Stop putting words in my mouth. I didn't say that. I'm saying my day to day life in America is more impacted by the Christian right than Muslims.

Kalam is not my 'buddy'. I put Gadawg in the buddy category. He's my kind of Christian.

You proudly display your ignorance. You ATTACK Christians cause some of them are against gay marriage while defending Islam where they PUT TO DEATH gay people and then say but golly they don't kill me here so they are safer.

I'm not attacking Christians. I'm stating the truth. The Christian Right is organizing against marriage equality in America. That issue impacts my daily life.

Muslims Americans don't declare it a national priority to fight civil marriage equality in my state. The LDS does. The Catholic Church does. Right wing evaneglicals do.

What they are referring to is the idea that Islam tolerates these things so long as they are the minority but as soon as they gain the numbers that allow them to they cease. It is a valid argument as each nation that has a Muslim majority tends to adopt Sharia law and that is a gross attack on personal freedoms. A problem that has been brought up about Islamic tendencies is the fact that Islam pushes itself into government by its precepts and Christianity does not. That is a MAJOR difference and the outcome is readily available: theocracies in the Mideast.