The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

[ding]

The love of the world over the love of God's spiritual realm is an evil that must be overcome to enter fully into the spiritual realm of Jerusalem while one is here.

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

 

[GreatestIam]

The love of the world over the love of God's spiritual realm is an evil that must be overcome to enter fully into the spiritual realm of Jerusalem while one is here.

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

The love of the world over the love of God's spiritual realm is an evil that must be overcome to enter fully into the spiritual realm of Jerusalem while one is here.

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

 

[GreatestIam]

The love of the world over the love of God's spiritual realm is an evil that must be overcome to enter fully into the spiritual realm of Jerusalem while one is here.

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

Thank you for the compliment.

All the religions that adore a genocidal son murdering God who kills when he can cure should be subverted. Right?

Oh wait, you like the homophobic and misogynous creeds.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

The love of the world over the love of God's spiritual realm is an evil that must be overcome to enter fully into the spiritual realm of Jerusalem while one is here.

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

Thank you for the compliment.

All the religions that adore a genocidal son murdering God who kills when he can cure should be subverted. Right?

Oh wait, you like the homophobic and misogynous creeds.

Regards
DL

You are the first to try to subordinate religion and you won’t be the last.

Opposition only rises up in response to attacks.

 

[GreatestIam]

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

Thank you for the compliment.

All the religions that adore a genocidal son murdering God who kills when he can cure should be subverted. Right?

Oh wait, you like the homophobic and misogynous creeds.

Regards
DL

You are the first to try to subordinate religion and you won’t be the last.

Opposition only rises up in response to attacks.

Hogwash. I attack the Christian morality all the time and all Christians do is run for the hills because they know they cannot refute my arguments or do decent apologetics for their views.

That is why they used and continue to use inquisition tactics.

Be proud of what you support, if you have satanic morals.

If you have decent morals, be ashamed.

Regards
DL

 

[ding]

You don’t believe in the supernatural.

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

Thank you for the compliment.

All the religions that adore a genocidal son murdering God who kills when he can cure should be subverted. Right?

Oh wait, you like the homophobic and misogynous creeds.

Regards
DL

You are the first to try to subordinate religion and you won’t be the last.

Opposition only rises up in response to attacks.

Hogwash. I attack the Christian morality all the time and all Christians do is run for the hills because they know they cannot refute my arguments or do decent apologetics for their views.

That is why they used and continue to use inquisition tactics.

Be proud of what you support, if you have satanic morals.

If you have decent morals, be ashamed.

Regards
DL

Would you like to debate that in the bull ring, chicken little?

 

[JamesTheDick]

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.



Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

Scriptures say we are all children of God.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

O.K ... So I agree with most of your post, but here's the thing ... Religion in any form, no matter the culture, is a deeply ingrained, and personal thing, so before I go any further lets remember that if you wish to be respected, you need also to respect. With that being said, I made the decision, as a Christian, way back in 2006 to be accountable for my life ... The good, the great, the bad, and the ugly. In a sense, I decided to give my life so Jesus wouldn't be responsible for paying for my wrongdoings. The guy went through hell ... after dedicating his life for a cause that seems to escape many, which I find both beautiful and beastly.

In my view he gave his life up to save his friends ... You know, the 12 or was it 11 who only had 2 swords against a Roman troop who were given orders to put him in custody. So, after and even prior to 2006, I dedicated my life to the same cause I believe he dedicated his to ... Happiness, and standing up to those who attempt to keep us down and who deem us unworthy of happiness ... You know, typical societal rejects ... Collectors, drinkers, prostitutes, etc ... As if we don't understand what it means to be happy, well err ... umm ... some anyway. Eat, drink, be merry, right? In other words, get your fill of life, enjoy it, be happy, and don't let the naysayers keep you down. I freaking love his philosophy on life. Hell, the scriptures state that he came, eating, drinking, and hanging out with people like that, enjoying life as if he was demon possessed. Honestly, I think it may have been the other way around given the historical accounts written about him. Guilty consciences held by those who hated him so badly they put him through hell and did all they could do to humiliate him.

 

[JamesTheDick]

By the way ... I'm a masterdebater ... They don't call me Dick for nuthin ... Literally, figuratively, unapologetic ... umm ... ly, or maybe I'm just me and don't give a wit, or maybe I do when it comes to you know who ... or do you? I think people can sometimes be too serious if you ask me, but then in the end it's about life and death, so take a deep breath, look around and see just how beautiful Christianity and life can be.

 

[GreatestIam]

If that is not clear to you -----

Regards
DL

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

Thank you for the compliment.

All the religions that adore a genocidal son murdering God who kills when he can cure should be subverted. Right?

Oh wait, you like the homophobic and misogynous creeds.

Regards
DL

You are the first to try to subordinate religion and you won’t be the last.

Opposition only rises up in response to attacks.

Hogwash. I attack the Christian morality all the time and all Christians do is run for the hills because they know they cannot refute my arguments or do decent apologetics for their views.

That is why they used and continue to use inquisition tactics.

Be proud of what you support, if you have satanic morals.

If you have decent morals, be ashamed.

Regards
DL

Would you like to debate that in the bull ring, chicken little?

Thanks for the childish response, child.
I can think of nothing more boring than trying to reason with one who cannot reason and thinks he knows that all define words as he stupidly does and has the childish attitude that assumes others are as childish and will be moved by your chicken little taunt.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

no matter the culture, is a deeply ingrained, and personal thing,

We will disagree on many things, like what I quoted and the literal reading of myths, which is why I offered another scenario for us to look at the moral aspects without needing us to read scriptures literally which goes into the whole faith thing.

Let me speak to that quote and then to literalism and then you can decide how or if you wish to proceed on the moral aspects.

I do not see most as being in their religions for the theology. I see most as just following their parents religions. If that was not true, the map you see in this link would not likely exist as is.



On literal the reading of myths.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

What is God?

Further.
Bill Moyers Journal . Watch & Listen | PBS

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.



James

Many think Jesus suffered a lot but forget that it was his desire for suicide that prompted him to basically bribe his most trusted apostle, Judas, turn him over in the, to me, myth of the last super.

Our disagreement on the bible is why I wanted to use another accurate scenario to discus the moral aspects of substitutional punishment.

Let me know how and if you wish to proceed.

Regards
DL

 

[GreatestIam]

By the way ... I'm a masterdebater ... They don't call me Dick for nuthin ... Literally, figuratively, unapologetic ... umm ... ly, or maybe I'm just me and don't give a wit, or maybe I do when it comes to you know who ... or do you? I think people can sometimes be too serious if you ask me, but then in the end it's about life and death, so take a deep breath, look around and see just how beautiful Christianity and life can be.

You may be good and true to your avatar but I have you beat if mine proves itself true. I like those with some balls though whop can give a decent argument. As to Christianity, it is good for the in group, but not the our group who, thanks to the homophobia and misogyny in Christianity, makes it evil to better than half the population whom Christians discriminate against without a just cause.

If as you say, you like to keep it not so serious, then this link might make you smile while teaching you something.



Regards
DL

 

[ding]

It is 100% clear to me. You are just one of a number of subversives attempting to subordinate Christianity.

Thank you for the compliment.

All the religions that adore a genocidal son murdering God who kills when he can cure should be subverted. Right?

Oh wait, you like the homophobic and misogynous creeds.

Regards
DL

You are the first to try to subordinate religion and you won’t be the last.

Opposition only rises up in response to attacks.

Hogwash. I attack the Christian morality all the time and all Christians do is run for the hills because they know they cannot refute my arguments or do decent apologetics for their views.

That is why they used and continue to use inquisition tactics.

Be proud of what you support, if you have satanic morals.

If you have decent morals, be ashamed.

Regards
DL

Would you like to debate that in the bull ring, chicken little?

Thanks for the childish response, child.
I can think of nothing more boring than trying to reason with one who cannot reason and thinks he knows that all define words as he stupidly does and has the childish attitude that assumes others are as childish and will be moved by your chicken little taunt.

Regards
DL

You are afraid.

 

[RodISHI]

The love of the world over the love of God's spiritual realm is an evil that must be overcome to enter fully into the spiritual realm of Jerusalem while one is here.

I can almost agree here but you have to remember that in Gnostic Christianity, the physical is what expresses the spiritual by our actions.

We see God within us and let his spirit shine through by our expressing it.

I have yet to proof and finish what follows but you might get some of what we are talking about in it.
-----------

Have you leaned what your bible teaches?

The Bible teaches one to start ones spiritual journey from the bottom i.e. from a stage where he must consider himself as a born Sinner and starts his journey upwards from there. One reaches second stage when he realises that he is the son and God is his father. The final realisation is when he realises that he and the Father are One. This is similar to the spiritual journey of a Hindu who starts his journey from Dwait stage , (where he thinks himself and God to be two distinct entities), graduates to Vishishta Adwait (a stage where he thinks himself a fragment/ fraction of Him) and finally reached to the Adwait stage ( a stage when he merges himself with that infinite consciousness.)

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

John 6 ; 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

Mark 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

John Lennon. It seems to me that the only true Christians were the Gnostics, who believed in self-knowledge, I.E. becoming Gods themselves, reaching the Christ within, the light is the truth. Turn on the light. All the better to see you my dear.

Regards
DL

Stevan Davies. The savior is not a celestial being brought to earth; the savior is a capacity of the mind, and the savior’s journey from above is actually one’s own journey from within.

If that is what you believe without believing that God sends his chosen into this world you are very much in error and the scripture (if you believe it) proves you to be in error.

You claim that children merely pickup the religion of their parents and again you give give no credence to the Holy Spirit that is real and the manifestations of the heavenly realm that an earthly person cannot perceive or see without the spirit which can and does touch or manifest to a child that calls out.

You appear to desire to put limits on God and what is also done in the spirit. That is not a moral issue but your disbelief and your own inability to comprehend.

It makes no difference to me what kind of Christian you call yourself as I would not merely look at your religion type to determine your belief or faith and neither would God according to the Bible. There are people locally here who go to various denominational churches yet they willingly steal, lie, gossip and cheat others on a regular basis and there are also ones who would not do any of those detestable things. There are others who visit the bar regularly yet they would give you the shirt off their backs if they felt you were in need more than they are and there are others who go to the bars that would rob you blind in a heart beat and blame you for something while they are doing it.

Who is your spiritual mother?

 

[Iamartiewhitefox]

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.



Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

Scriptures say we are all children of God.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

That sheading of blood would not have occurred had people seen that Jesus was the Lrd of Glory. People want to shed the blood of nude people, chasing them down as if they are bad. People want to kill gays, zoosexuals, pedophilia people, furries and Bronies. That would not happen had people have the ability to recognize Jesus in people..

 

[The Sage of Main Street]

The cornerstone of Christianity is human sacrifice. Is Christianity a moral creed?

I find Christianity immoral for substitutionary atonement as well as many others of their moral tenets.

Without the blood sacrifice of Jesus, Christianity fails as a salvific religion.

We could thump all day with passages that both support blood sacrifice as well as quote the many passages against it as shown with both types of quotes in this link.



Recognizing that there are many contradictory passages in scriptures, let’s ignore them all and just look at the morality of substitutionary atonement.

Scriptures tell us that to perfect our wisdom, we must get out of the Christian theology. I think that those passages are asking us to confirm our thinking with analogies that do not include Christian dogma.

With that in mind, I offer an analogy for discussion.

Scriptures say we are all children of God.

Imagine you have two children. One of your children does something wrong – say it curses, or throws a temper tantrum, or something like that. In fact, say it does this on a regular basis, and you continually forgive your child, but it never seems to change.

Now suppose one day you’ve had enough, you need to do something different. You still wish to forgive your child, but nothing has worked. Do you go to your second child, your good child, and punish it to atone for the sins of the first?

In fact, if you ever saw a parent on the street punish one of their children for the actions of their other child, how would you react? Would you support their decision, or would you be offended?

Interestingly, some historical royal families would beat their slaves when their own children did wrong – you should not, after all, ever beat a prince. The question is: what kind of lesson does that teach the child who actually did the harm? Does it teach them to be a better person, to stop doing harm, or does it teach them both that they won't themselves be punished, and also that punishing other people is normal? I know that's not a lesson I would want to teach my children, and I suspect it's not a lesson most Christians would want to teach theirs. So why does God?

For me, that’s at least one significant reason I find Jesus’ atonement of our sin to be morally repugnant – of course, that’s assuming Jesus ever existed; that original sin actually exists; that God actually exists; etc.

Do you agree that having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral. Do you agree that to abdicate personal responsibility or use a scapegoat is immoral?

If not, please show how it is morally and legally good to punish the innocent instead of the guilty, bearing in mind that all legal systems think that punishing the guilty is what is justice.

Regards
DL

Jesus Was the First Protestant

Jesus was crucified for criticizing and competing with the Jewish hierarchy (which also hired a crowd to shout for his execution). When the Christian church also became a hierarchy, they made up the absurd and unjust dogmas that he died for our sins and that the entire Jewish people, not just their high priests, wanted him put to death.

 

[GreatestIam]

That sheading of blood would not have occurred had people seen that Jesus was the Lrd of Glory. People want to shed the blood of nude people, chasing them down as if they are bad. People want to kill gays, zoosexuals, pedophilia people, furries and Bronies. That would not happen had people have the ability to recognize Jesus in people..

I agree in principle.

Why do you think we are created this way?

If natural, then it id explainable.

If supernatural, then it is not, as god, He is described as only good and perfect and without evil.

God would not create us this awful way. Right?

You might remember that the sin was a part of Yahweh's plan and had to happen.

It dis and that is why Christians sing of Adam's sin as a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Embrace sin and evil. Christians sing that it is good.

Regards
DL