The case for Palestinian independence

[Lipush]

There have been several peace proposals coming from arab league representatives since 1967 and everyone of them wound up getting rejected by the Israeli's.

They all had a basic common theme:

end the occupation
go back to the '67 borders
allow the "right of return" for Palestinian refugees

Ok, and what do the Palestinians gonna give up, Loinboy?

Because that sounds rediculous as it is, if not being "added" to palestinians promises of stopping the terror against Jews, accepting Israel's right to exist, AND Arabs from Israel moving to "Palestine" if there will be one

 

[Lipush]

No need for negotiations or concessions. Israel needs to comply with international law and respect the human rights of the Palestinian people. The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem are not Israeli land and will never be Israeli land. You cannot hold onto land siezed in a war! Period.

In other way, you say Israel should expell thousands of Jews while the Palestinians don't need to give anything up.

In that case, thanks, but no thanks.

We will continue "ignore" Intl law if that's the best offer you give us

 

[Saigon]

Lipush -

Palestinians should also be required to give up any claim to land outside the territories. This is a major concession. They should also abandon violence.

Also, Palestine should abandon an unlimited right of return, accept the loss of Western Jerusalem and the New City, and accept supervisoon or control of ports and borders.

These are all major concessions.

 

[Lipush]

Ok, THAT is something we can start discussing with. Not Loinboy's suicide plan.

 

[editec]

If one needs to be of the bloodline that existed on a land for thousands of years?

Almost no human being alive is living where he's supposed to be living.

 

[Lipush]

Jews have the right for self definition like any other nation on earth.

 

[The Rabbi]

There was never a country Palestine ruled by Palestinian people

So then you would also oppose independence and self-determination for Lebanon, South Africa, Zimbabwe, Canada, New Zealand and Australia?

That isnt the basis for the existence of those countries.

Do you oppose self determination for the Kurds of Iraq and Turkey?

 

[Saigon]

Rabbi -

I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and political representation - including Palestinians and Kurds.

Basing your argument around which nation states existed in 1800 takes not only Palestine off the map - but takes Germany and Italy with it. Hence - it is not a valid argument.

 

[M14 Shooter]

No need for negotiations or concessions. Israel needs to comply with international law and respect the human rights of the Palestinian people. The West Bank, Gaza, Golan Heights and East Jerusalem are not Israeli land and will never be Israeli land. You cannot hold onto land siezed in a war! Period.

Except that you can, especially when the state that you took it from renounces its claim on it.
Given that Jordan no longer claims the West Bank, "international law" does not apply.

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi -

I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and political representation - including Palestinians and Kurds.

Basing your argument around which nation states existed in 1800 takes not only Palestine off the map - but takes Germany and Italy with it. Hence - it is not a valid argument.

I dont base my argument on that. I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times, and French people are, as well as Italians and they all have the right to self determination so too do the Jews. The Palestinians are different as they are a faux nationality with no connection to the land beyond maybe 100 years ago. Other reasons I outlined above.

 

[Saigon]

I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times,

Really?

When did the word "Germany" first appear on a map? When did people first become "Germans"?

The answer is 1871.

Prior to that, the people were Prussians, Hannoversians, Baverians or Rhinelanders etc.

 

[konradv]

Rabbi -

I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and political representation - including Palestinians and Kurds.

Basing your argument around which nation states existed in 1800 takes not only Palestine off the map - but takes Germany and Italy with it. Hence - it is not a valid argument.

I dont base my argument on that. I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times, and French people are, as well as Italians and they all have the right to self determination so too do the Jews. The Palestinians are different as they are a faux nationality with no connection to the land beyond maybe 100 years ago. Other reasons I outlined above.

100 years ago? That seems arbitrary for people that may have lived there for thousands. Like you said it really has nothing to do with how long the words "Israel" or "Palestine" have been used, but the fact that the land was already partitioned and Jordan wasn't part of the equation. That's just a piece of invented revisionist history on your part. The partition involved the mandate of Palestine only.

 

[The Rabbi]

I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times,

Really?

When did the word "Germany" first appear on a map? When did people first become "Germans"?

The answer is 1871.

Prior to that, the people were Prussians, Hannoversians, Baverians or Rhinelanders etc.

Umm, no.
http://www.utexas.edu/courses/ancientfilmCC304/lecture21/detail.php?linenum=4

 

[The Rabbi]

Rabbi -

I support the right of people to determine their own destiny and political representation - including Palestinians and Kurds.

Basing your argument around which nation states existed in 1800 takes not only Palestine off the map - but takes Germany and Italy with it. Hence - it is not a valid argument.

I dont base my argument on that. I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times, and French people are, as well as Italians and they all have the right to self determination so too do the Jews. The Palestinians are different as they are a faux nationality with no connection to the land beyond maybe 100 years ago. Other reasons I outlined above.

100 years ago? That seems arbitrary for people that may have lived there for thousands. Like you said it really has nothing to do with how long the words "Israel" or "Palestine" have been used, but the fact that the land was already partitioned and Jordan wasn't part of the equation. That's just a piece of invented revisionist history on your part. The partition involved the mandate of Palestine only.

100 years does not constitute an ancient claim of an ethnic people.

 

[konradv]

I dont base my argument on that. I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times, and French people are, as well as Italians and they all have the right to self determination so too do the Jews. The Palestinians are different as they are a faux nationality with no connection to the land beyond maybe 100 years ago. Other reasons I outlined above.

100 years ago? That seems arbitrary for people that may have lived there for thousands. Like you said it really has nothing to do with how long the words "Israel" or "Palestine" have been used, but the fact that the land was already partitioned and Jordan wasn't part of the equation. That's just a piece of invented revisionist history on your part. The partition involved the mandate of Palestine only.

100 years does not constitute an ancient claim of an ethnic people.

That's YOUR claim. I was saying that's bogus. Read for comprehension, please.

 

[t_polkow]

Connery -

All of the myths posted have been repeated dozens of times, but if you check out a thread by Roudy on 'Truths & Myths of Temple Mount' you should find all of them, I believe.

 

[Saigon]

I do base it on the fact that just like Germans are a recognized nationality and have been since Roman times,

Really?

When did the word "Germany" first appear on a map? When did people first become "Germans"?

The answer is 1871.

Prior to that, the people were Prussians, Hannoversians, Baverians or Rhinelanders etc.

Umm, no.
Map of Roman empire (2nd c. A.D.)

The word was only used by Caeser to describe multiple territories east of Gaul at that stage - it had little connection with the borders of modern Germany, and nor did it attempt to redefine the dozen statelets within the region.

By your definition, Palestine was on Roman maps for 600 years - was that your point?

 

[konradv]

There was never a country Palestine ruled by Palestinian people. There were P'lishitim mentioned in the Bible but they were a disparate group of tribes. The present people calling themselves Palestinian are in fact Jordanian Arabs who migrated there in the 19th century.

Most people that call themselves Israelis migrated there in the 20th century, so how would they have precedence over those who did so in the 19th?

Until the 20th century there were no such countries as Belarus, Slovakia and Slovenia, either! They're all Slavs, so I guess they've got other countries where they can go to, right?

 

[Saigon]

The present people calling themselves Palestinian are in fact Jordanian Arabs who migrated there in the 19th century.

Genetically they have clear links with the Canaanites, actually.

 

[The Rabbi]

Really?

When did the word "Germany" first appear on a map? When did people first become "Germans"?

The answer is 1871.

Prior to that, the people were Prussians, Hannoversians, Baverians or Rhinelanders etc.

Umm, no.
Map of Roman empire (2nd c. A.D.)

The word was only used by Caeser to describe multiple territories east of Gaul at that stage - it had little connection with the borders of modern Germany, and nor did it attempt to redefine the dozen statelets within the region.

By your definition, Palestine was on Roman maps for 600 years - was that your point?

Please.
Germany was a recognized physical entity with a people who spoke the same or closely related languages for 2,000 years. They are in no way shape or form analogous to the Palestinians, whose existence in Palestine might go back 100 years.