The 501c3 designation is what has destroyed the church

[progressive hunter]

You don’t know me well, apparently. I don’t want ANYONE being taxed. Taxation is theft, plain and simple.

So it's a great argument to say "hey, in particular the church shouldn't be taxed and therefore...their tax exemption shouldn't come with any stipulations?"

As opposed to making a thread about not taxing anyone period?

There's a word for that.

Once everyone's exempt, you'd have some sort of an argument here.

You’re still missing me man. All I’m trying to say is that if you’re going to worship in a church, do it in one that doesn’t owe the government jack shit.

I understand that - but the premise is flawed is all I'm pointing out.

When someone enters a contract regarding limitations on their speech, and without duress, that's a voluntary and binding contract and there's no point in bringing up the 1st amendment at all - - - that's like waiving my right to a fair trial and then crying from jail that my rights were violated. It's dishonestly invoking rights violations where they don't at all exist.

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

 

[Oddball]

..don't some of the churches help the poor/etc?? that's good and helps the state/etc....?

The State would like to remedy that situation.....Remember what Oboingo did with charitable contributions?

? what?

Why Are President Obama And The Democrats Against Charity?

the SAMURAI !!!!!!---good one there
...I kind of agree and disagree with that---if you are getting a tax cut for charity--it's not really ''total'' charity.....but it probably does help the charities out though

You're getting looted less....Better someone who truly needs the help get it, than someone likely to become dependent upon the dole.....And there's the rub: The State wants dependents.

 

[G.T.]

So it's a great argument to say "hey, in particular the church shouldn't be taxed and therefore...their tax exemption shouldn't come with any stipulations?"

As opposed to making a thread about not taxing anyone period?

There's a word for that.

Once everyone's exempt, you'd have some sort of an argument here.

You’re still missing me man. All I’m trying to say is that if you’re going to worship in a church, do it in one that doesn’t owe the government jack shit.

I understand that - but the premise is flawed is all I'm pointing out.

When someone enters a contract regarding limitations on their speech, and without duress, that's a voluntary and binding contract and there's no point in bringing up the 1st amendment at all - - - that's like waiving my right to a fair trial and then crying from jail that my rights were violated. It's dishonestly invoking rights violations where they don't at all exist.

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

eta...actually, 501c3 makes the exercise of religion freer, in the financial sense. LOL

 

[BreezeWood]

a church is not the state, tax laws have multiple options under voluntary compliance all being indiscriminate to not take advantage of the options, just pay the tax.

anything less than the state is a cult, separate but equal is determined by scotus as being discriminatorily unconstitutional. being religious is not a tax exemption.

The State is a fucking cult.

.

The State is a fucking cult.

the state is the collective, everything else is subordinate where discrimination is not legally allowed. the basis for tax laws.

 

[harmonica]

..don't some of the churches help the poor/etc?? that's good and helps the state/etc....?

The State would like to remedy that situation.....Remember what Oboingo did with charitable contributions?

? what?

Why Are President Obama And The Democrats Against Charity?

the SAMURAI !!!!!!---good one there
...I kind of agree and disagree with that---if you are getting a tax cut for charity--it's not really ''total'' charity.....but it probably does help the charities out though

You're getting looted less....Better someone who truly needs the help get it, than someone likely to become dependent upon the dole.....And there's the rub: The State wants dependents.

...I don't want the state to hand out charity ...a lot of fraud there....is that what you're saying?

 

[progressive hunter]

You’re still missing me man. All I’m trying to say is that if you’re going to worship in a church, do it in one that doesn’t owe the government jack shit.

I understand that - but the premise is flawed is all I'm pointing out.

When someone enters a contract regarding limitations on their speech, and without duress, that's a voluntary and binding contract and there's no point in bringing up the 1st amendment at all - - - that's like waiving my right to a fair trial and then crying from jail that my rights were violated. It's dishonestly invoking rights violations where they don't at all exist.

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

but 501c3 does restrict speech,,,which violates the 1st A

and I hate to break it to you but the tax code is law,,

 

[G.T.]

I understand that - but the premise is flawed is all I'm pointing out.

When someone enters a contract regarding limitations on their speech, and without duress, that's a voluntary and binding contract and there's no point in bringing up the 1st amendment at all - - - that's like waiving my right to a fair trial and then crying from jail that my rights were violated. It's dishonestly invoking rights violations where they don't at all exist.

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

but 501c3 does does restrict speech,,,which violates the 1st A

and I hate to break it to you but the tax code is law,,

501c3 doesnt restrict anything - it is voluntary and it gives the tax-payer at least a miniscule incentive to allow the church their special treatment.

 

[peach174]

It interferes with the 1st amendment.
Why don't churches pay taxes?

There is said to be an old Arabian proverb: “If the camel once gets his nose in the tent, his body will soon follow.” This expression is especially pertinent in the tax exemption context. Churches are tax exempt under the principle that there is no surer way to destroy the free exercise of religion than to tax it. If the government is allowed to tax churches (or to condition a tax exemption on a church refraining from the free exercise of religion), the camel’s nose is under the tent, and its body is sure to follow. But that’s not just my opinion; it’s the understanding of the U.S. Supreme Court.

In its 1970 opinion in Walz vs. Tax Commission of the City of New York, the high court stated that a tax exemption for churches “creates only a minimal and remote involvement between church and state and far less than taxation of churches. [An exemption] restricts the fiscal relationship between church and state, and tends to complement and reinforce the desired separation insulating each from the other.” The Supreme Court also said that “the power to tax involves the power to destroy.” Taxing churches breaks down the healthy separation of church and state and leads to the destruction of the free exercise of religion.

 

[PoliticalChic]

When a church takes the 501c3 non profit designation it becomes beholden to the state. It is for all intents and purposes a bribe that was accepted in exchange for the church operating to specifics such as what they can and can’t say as part of their service.

“God’s Law, given to Moses for the people of Israel, forbade the taking of a bribe, “for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous” (Exodus 23:8). The same rule is repeated in Deuteronomy 16:19: “You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.”

You can look your church up through the IRS’s search portal for 501c3 designated churches. If your church happens to be one, I suggest you switch. I know that’s going to be difficult to do because of the way human patterns and behavior work but it’s something to consider.

..the bible is irrelevant to it .....if they are helping people without profit , fine--no tax

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Democrats passed the restriction because they hate freedom and religion.

 

[PoliticalChic]

...a bribe that was accepted in exchange for the church operating to specifics such as what they can and can’t say as part of their service...

"Can't preach politics from the pulpit"

is the only thing churches are prohibited from doing in order to attain and keep their 501c3

thats a violation of the 1st amendment,,,

churchs dont need permission to have a church,,so the 501c3 is also a violation of the 1st A

It's not a violation when they're doing so voluntarily. I couldn't possibly... even begin to understand why that little nuance would be confusing to anyone.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Democrats passed the restriction because they hate freedom and religion.

 

[harmonica]

When a church takes the 501c3 non profit designation it becomes beholden to the state. It is for all intents and purposes a bribe that was accepted in exchange for the church operating to specifics such as what they can and can’t say as part of their service.

“God’s Law, given to Moses for the people of Israel, forbade the taking of a bribe, “for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous” (Exodus 23:8). The same rule is repeated in Deuteronomy 16:19: “You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.”

You can look your church up through the IRS’s search portal for 501c3 designated churches. If your church happens to be one, I suggest you switch. I know that’s going to be difficult to do because of the way human patterns and behavior work but it’s something to consider.

..the bible is irrelevant to it .....if they are helping people without profit , fine--no tax

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Democrats passed the restriction because they hate freedom and religion.

...ALL guidebooks/constitutions/laws/etc are just that = GUIDES....they can be interpreted many ways...they can't put everything into them

 

[PoliticalChic]

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

but 501c3 does does restrict speech,,,which violates the 1st A

and I hate to break it to you but the tax code is law,,

501c3 doesnt restrict anything - it is voluntary and it gives the tax-payer at least a miniscule incentive to allow the church their special treatment.

Under Democrat/Liberal LBJ, the law was passed that deprived pastors of their right of free speech.
What possible compelling government interest could this represent????

“The 1954 federal Johnson Amendment prohibits a pastor from talking about candidates from the pulpit in light of Scripture. Thus, based on what a pastor says about an election from the pulpit, the tax code allows the government to tax a church. Consider that in light of the Internal Revenue Service's increasingly vague regulations, and you have a recipe for the censorship of religion. The IRS, through those vague regulations, reserves for itself tremendous discretion and power to decide which churches to punish for violations of the Johnson Amendment and which not to punish.”
Why don't churches pay taxes?


Any reading of the first amendment will prove this to be unconstitutional.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.






Soooo....you're a government school grad, huh?

 

[PoliticalChic]

When a church takes the 501c3 non profit designation it becomes beholden to the state. It is for all intents and purposes a bribe that was accepted in exchange for the church operating to specifics such as what they can and can’t say as part of their service.

“God’s Law, given to Moses for the people of Israel, forbade the taking of a bribe, “for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous” (Exodus 23:8). The same rule is repeated in Deuteronomy 16:19: “You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.”

You can look your church up through the IRS’s search portal for 501c3 designated churches. If your church happens to be one, I suggest you switch. I know that’s going to be difficult to do because of the way human patterns and behavior work but it’s something to consider.

..the bible is irrelevant to it .....if they are helping people without profit , fine--no tax

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Democrats passed the restriction because they hate freedom and religion.

...ALL guidebooks/constitutions/laws/etc are just that = GUIDES....they can be interpreted many ways...they can't put everything into them

The Constitution is the law of the land.


And you're a moron.

 

[harmonica]

I understand that - but the premise is flawed is all I'm pointing out.

When someone enters a contract regarding limitations on their speech, and without duress, that's a voluntary and binding contract and there's no point in bringing up the 1st amendment at all - - - that's like waiving my right to a fair trial and then crying from jail that my rights were violated. It's dishonestly invoking rights violations where they don't at all exist.

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

but 501c3 does restrict speech,,,which violates the 1st A

and I hate to break it to you but the tax code is law,,

again, free speech is limited--not unlimited ---....

 

[harmonica]

When a church takes the 501c3 non profit designation it becomes beholden to the state. It is for all intents and purposes a bribe that was accepted in exchange for the church operating to specifics such as what they can and can’t say as part of their service.

“God’s Law, given to Moses for the people of Israel, forbade the taking of a bribe, “for a bribe blinds the discerning and perverts the words of the righteous” (Exodus 23:8). The same rule is repeated in Deuteronomy 16:19: “You shall not pervert justice; you shall not show partiality, nor take a bribe, for a bribe blinds the eyes of the wise and twists the words of the righteous.”

You can look your church up through the IRS’s search portal for 501c3 designated churches. If your church happens to be one, I suggest you switch. I know that’s going to be difficult to do because of the way human patterns and behavior work but it’s something to consider.

..the bible is irrelevant to it .....if they are helping people without profit , fine--no tax

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Democrats passed the restriction because they hate freedom and religion.

...ALL guidebooks/constitutions/laws/etc are just that = GUIDES....they can be interpreted many ways...they can't put everything into them

The Constitution is the law of the land.


And you're a moron.

so, you show your immaturity/idiocy by insults
...did the Constitution say anything about the internet? cars? etc?? NO---

 

[progressive hunter]

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

but 501c3 does does restrict speech,,,which violates the 1st A

and I hate to break it to you but the tax code is law,,

501c3 doesnt restrict anything - it is voluntary and it gives the tax-payer at least a miniscule incentive to allow the church their special treatment.

now your just lying,,,doesnt matter what you or I do,,its a violation of the 1st for congress to make any law restricting speech or religion,,and a 501c3 restricts speech and religion,,,

why is it this little nuance keeps eluding you???

 

[progressive hunter]

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

but 501c3 does restrict speech,,,which violates the 1st A

and I hate to break it to you but the tax code is law,,

again, free speech is limited--not unlimited ---....

only when violence or anothers rights would be violated,,,

and a preacher talking about politics doesnt do either,,,

 

[Oddball]

...a bribe that was accepted in exchange for the church operating to specifics such as what they can and can’t say as part of their service...

"Can't preach politics from the pulpit"

is the only thing churches are prohibited from doing in order to attain and keep their 501c3

thats a violation of the 1st amendment,,,

churchs dont need permission to have a church,,so the 501c3 is also a violation of the 1st A

It's not a violation when they're doing so voluntarily. I couldn't possibly... even begin to understand why that little nuance would be confusing to anyone.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Democrats passed the restriction because they hate freedom and religion.

 

[ding]

The Bible speaks to every issue that intersects with our political debates.

 

[Paulie]

You’re still missing me man. All I’m trying to say is that if you’re going to worship in a church, do it in one that doesn’t owe the government jack shit.

I understand that - but the premise is flawed is all I'm pointing out.

When someone enters a contract regarding limitations on their speech, and without duress, that's a voluntary and binding contract and there's no point in bringing up the 1st amendment at all - - - that's like waiving my right to a fair trial and then crying from jail that my rights were violated. It's dishonestly invoking rights violations where they don't at all exist.

GT where did you go??

did you find where in the first A you can give up your rights or that the government can make a law if you volunteer???

Where did I go?

You can always have waived your rights in this Country...usually, you'd be an idiot to do so...but it's always been the case. It's not stipulated in the specific 1st amendment, wtf? I never said that it was.

but you keep ignoring that the 1st says congress shall make no laws,,,ands since a 501c3 is a law it violates the 1st A,,

why does this little nuance elude you???

501c3 is a tax code, and it's one that's completely voluntary. The congress shall make no law is a non-sequitur because 501c3 doesnt not prevent the free exercise of Religion.

eta...actually, 501c3 makes the exercise of religion freer, in the financial sense. LOL

If we want to debate what congress shall make no law in regards to, we can find ample examples in the tax code itself, not just the 501c3. The only taxes the constitution ever authorized are excise, duties, and tariffs. All taxes that can be avoided or paid through our own voluntary actions in the market.