TEACHERS: This Important Question Is For You

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Constitutional law, criminal law, and the whole kit and kaboodle.

So you taught criminal law in Florida, then how about the law commonly called "Leaving the scene of an accident" ? If so, can you explain it here ? You're the teacher right ? And here's a hypthothetical case., 2 crash. Neither driver is hurt but damage has been done to the cars. What, under Florida law, are these drivers required to do /

I didn't teach driver's ed.

 

[protectionist]

most people don't know anything about "the law" and shouldn't teach it. you know that you can't attack someone. you know you can't steal. most kids are pretty good at finding out what drug laws are.

it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things. people are either law-abiding or they aren't.

And it is precisely the fact that "it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things", which is why I wrote this OP. Because it badly NEEDS TO BE the responsibility of teachers to teach those things, and if it were, there would be less violent attacks. You have just the wrong idea I'm talking about.

NO, kids do NOT know that (BY LAW) you can't attack someone. You overestimate the knowledge of kids. Some kids do know this, and they tend to be the better-behaved kids. It is the dum dums who don't know it and walk around thinking of attacking other kids as about the equivalent of chewing gum.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

most people don't know anything about "the law" and shouldn't teach it. you know that you can't attack someone. you know you can't steal. most kids are pretty good at finding out what drug laws are.

it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things. people are either law-abiding or they aren't.

And it is precisely the fact that "it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things", which is why I wrote this OP. Because it badly NEEDS TO BE the responsibility of teachers to teach those things, and if it were, there would be less violent attacks. You have just the wrong idea I'm talking about.

NO, kids do NOT know that (BY LAW) you can't attack someone. You overestimate the knowledge of kids. Some kids do know this, and they tend to be the better-behaved kids. It is the dum dums who don't know it and walk around thinking of attacking other kids as about the equivalent of chewing gum.

Apparently you are just ignorant and assume every one else is a bad as you?

Students also have a code of conduct that they must follow. There is no basis in law contained in those rules, is there?

 

[protectionist]

most people know they can't leave the scene of an accident. if you don't, i'd suggest your problem is not that you don't have someone spoon-feeding those things to you.

I know the answer to the question. You don't. You just answered it WRONG.

Oh you can't leave the scene of the accident, Jillian ? So this means you remain at that spot for the rest of your life ? At some point in time, you ARE entitled to leave the scene. I'll give you a second chance. WHEN (under what circumstance) are you allowed to leave ?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

most people know they can't leave the scene of an accident. if you don't, i'd suggest your problem is not that you don't have someone spoon-feeding those things to you.

I know the answer to the question. You don't. You just answered it WRONG.

Oh you can't leave the scene of the accident, Jillian ? So this means you remain at that spot for the rest of your life ? At some point in time, you ARE entitled to leave the scene. I'll give you a second chance. WHEN (under what circumstance) are you allowed to leave ?

Why can't you see that this is NOT a topic for discussion in a social studies classroom?

 

[protectionist]

Apparently you are just ignorant and assume every one else is a bad as you?

Students also have a code of conduct that they must follow. There is no basis in law contained in those rules, is there?

You're talking pretty stupid. I gave no indication that I was bad in any way, so shut up, moron. I'm not talking about a code of conduct. I'm talking about students knowing what is the law, or being ignorant of it.

And since you want to come in here and shoot your mouth off, I'll challenge YOU also, to answer the question I just gave to Jillian. Lets see if you have the foggiest idea of this subject matter.

 

[protectionist]

Why can't you see that this is NOT a topic for discussion in a social studies classroom?

This is a PRIME topic of discussion in a social studies classroom, which ought to have the highest priority. Why in the world would you say it is not ? That makes no sense. School is there to prepare kids for life now and in the future.

There are few things they need to be prepared for more than knowing what is legal and what isn't. By neglecting to teach them about certain aspects of criminal law, this is almost insuring that they will violate those laws, just out of ignorance of them. Why can't YOU see THAT ?

 

[Esmeralda]

Are there any teachers out there on this board, teaching 5th grade or higher ? If so, please answer this question for me. How much time have you spent in the classroom, teaching kids about THE LAW ? When I was in school (a long time ago), I went through 17 years of schooling (to a year of graduate school), and other than one business law course in high school (an elective), I don't recall a single minute of education about the law, and ZERO regarding criminal law. My kids tell me the same about their educational years.

So now, fast foward to the past couple of years of social events in America. A 17 year old kid (Trayvon Martin) gets blown away after throwing punches at a neighborhood watch guy who was observing him. An 18 year old kid, Michael Brown, roughs up a convenience store clerk, and then attacks a cop. And then, thousands of young blacks fight with cops in the street, and throw rocks at them in during what could have been peaceful protests.

Are these kids oblivious to the fact that 1) they stand a good chance of being shot to death and 2) being arrested for a violent CRIME ? Do these kids have any idea that what they're doing is illegal ? Strange as it may seem, I don't think they do. And my guess is one of the reasons is the lack of education on the law.

Even many adults my own age (69) are still unaware that a minor, physical attack on them (or anyone over 65 in Florida) can result in 5 years of imprisonment in a state prison. (1 yr county jail on people under 65). And what is the law on the charge of battery ? Exactly what constitutes the commission of this crime ? Technically, any unrequested touching is a battery (called "assault" in some states)

So what's up, teachers ? Are the kids learning what they need to know to be law-abiding citizens, or are they being allowed to roam the streets like wild dogs, with no idea of what they are going to be held responsible for ? What is going on in those classrooms, or NOT going on, pertaining to criminal law ?

most people don't know anything about "the law" and shouldn't teach it. you know that you can't attack someone. you know you can't steal. most kids are pretty good at finding out what drug laws are.

it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things. people are either law-abiding or they aren't.

Children should be taught basic ethical behavior at home, including teaching them to obey the law. The curriculum is full with math, science, language, social studies, and specific electives focused on getting into college or university or directed toward a vocation. Criminal law is not something most people need on order to pursue a college education and/or a career. It is taught in college and university programs where students are looking to work in law enforcement, law or the criminal justice system.

It is simply unrealistic to teach such a complex subject to high school students who
already have a full curriculum.

As a culture, we know what the basic laws are. What you have seen in the protests when young black men were killed by whites is that the black community has seen a lot of this kind of thing and they get fed up with it.

Your rendition of what happened in both circumstances is biased: what we really need to include in the curriculum is a strong focus on critical thinking skills, teaching students to look at all perspectives of a situation and make an assessment of it based on considered circumspection--not judge it from a obviously biased point of view.

 

[rightwinger]

Are there any teachers out there on this board, teaching 5th grade or higher ? If so, please answer this question for me. How much time have you spent in the classroom, teaching kids about THE LAW ? When I was in school (a long time ago), I went through 17 years of schooling (to a year of graduate school), and other than one business law course in high school (an elective), I don't recall a single minute of education about the law, and ZERO regarding criminal law. My kids tell me the same about their educational years.

So now, fast foward to the past couple of years of social events in America. A 17 year old kid (Trayvon Martin) gets blown away after throwing punches at a neighborhood watch guy who was observing him. An 18 year old kid, Michael Brown, roughs up a convenience store clerk, and then attacks a cop. And then, thousands of young blacks fight with cops in the street, and throw rocks at them in during what could have been peaceful protests.

Are these kids oblivious to the fact that 1) they stand a good chance of being shot to death and 2) being arrested for a violent CRIME ? Do these kids have any idea that what they're doing is illegal ? Strange as it may seem, I don't think they do. And my guess is one of the reasons is the lack of education on the law.

Even many adults my own age (69) are still unaware that a minor, physical attack on them (or anyone over 65 in Florida) can result in 5 years of imprisonment in a state prison. (1 yr county jail on people under 65). And what is the law on the charge of battery ? Exactly what constitutes the commission of this crime ? Technically, any unrequested touching is a battery (called "assault" in some states)

So what's up, teachers ? Are the kids learning what they need to know to be law-abiding citizens, or are they being allowed to roam the streets like wild dogs, with no idea of what they are going to be held responsible for ? What is going on in those classrooms, or NOT going on, pertaining to criminal law ?

Not clear what you want taught

That murder is a crime? Do you want to teach the drug laws and how much you are allowed to carry? How about the traffic laws or business laws? Rape laws?

How about their Constitutional right to free speech or protection from unreasonable search and seizure?

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Apparently you are just ignorant and assume every one else is a bad as you?

Students also have a code of conduct that they must follow. There is no basis in law contained in those rules, is there?

You're talking pretty stupid. I gave no indication that I was bad in any way, so shut up, moron. I'm not talking about a code of conduct. I'm talking about students knowing what is the law, or being ignorant of it.

And since you want to come in here and shoot your mouth off, I'll challenge YOU also, to answer the question I just gave to Jillian. Lets see if you have the foggiest idea of this subject matter.

At least I have pegged you as a troll and will not waste any more time trying to answer stupid questions. Why don't you show me where leaving the scene of an accident is in my state curriculum? I must have missed it.

 

[jillian]

most people don't know anything about "the law" and shouldn't teach it. you know that you can't attack someone. you know you can't steal. most kids are pretty good at finding out what drug laws are.

it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things. people are either law-abiding or they aren't.

And it is precisely the fact that "it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things", which is why I wrote this OP. Because it badly NEEDS TO BE the responsibility of teachers to teach those things, and if it were, there would be less violent attacks. You have just the wrong idea I'm talking about.

NO, kids do NOT know that (BY LAW) you can't attack someone. You overestimate the knowledge of kids. Some kids do know this, and they tend to be the better-behaved kids. It is the dum dums who don't know it and walk around thinking of attacking other kids as about the equivalent of chewing gum.

if they want or need advice on the law, they should speak to an attorney. I don't know what kids you've been around, but my son made it to college without ever having to day "I didn't know it was against the law to drive a car without a license".

 

[jillian]

most people know they can't leave the scene of an accident. if you don't, i'd suggest your problem is not that you don't have someone spoon-feeding those things to you.

I know the answer to the question. You don't. You just answered it WRONG.

Oh you can't leave the scene of the accident, Jillian ? So this means you remain at that spot for the rest of your life ? At some point in time, you ARE entitled to leave the scene. I'll give you a second chance. WHEN (under what circumstance) are you allowed to leave ?

Why can't you see that this is NOT a topic for discussion in a social studies classroom?

i'm going to guess he just found out that ignorance of the law is not a defense to a criminal act of some type.

 

[protectionist]

I didn't teach driver's ed.

That wasn't the question. You said you taught "criminal law, and the whole kit and kaboodle" Now you're changing that. I'm not. I'm sticking with your original statement, and my original question, which you have no answer for. And every driver in Florida is required to know the answer to the question I asked. EVERY Florida driver, which I take it that would be you, now or in the past, and if you don't know the answer, you could be in big jeopardy of being arrested, and doing some jail time. So again > 2 cars crash. Neither driver is hurt, but damage has been done to the cars. What, under Florida law, are these drivers required to do ? What would you do ?

So you are either in that hazardous category, or you know the answer to the question. Which is it ?

So again > 2 cars crash. Neither driver is hurt, but damage has been done to the cars. What, under Florida law, are these drivers required to do ? What would you do ?

 

[protectionist]

Children should be taught basic ethical behavior at home, including teaching them to obey the law. The curriculum is full with math, science, language, social studies, and specific electives focused on getting into college or university or directed toward a vocation. Criminal law is not something most people need on order to pursue a college education and/or a career. It is taught in college and university programs where students are looking to work in law enforcement, law or the criminal justice system.

It is simply unrealistic to teach such a complex subject to high school students who
already have a full curriculum.

As a culture, we know what the basic laws are. What you have seen in the protests when young black men were killed by whites is that the black community has seen a lot of this kind of thing and they get fed up with it.

Your rendition of what happened in both circumstances is biased: what we really need to include in the curriculum is a strong focus on critical thinking skills, teaching students to look at all perspectives of a situation and make an assessment of it based on considered circumspection--not judge it from a obviously biased point of view.

Preposterous post. I can;t believe I'm getting an ounce of resistance here. A complex subject ? Here, does this sound complex to you ? >> Just touching another person against their will, is technically a crime. You can get one year in the county jail for it. If you do it to someone over 65, you can get 3 years in a state prison. Obviously, hitting someone, punching, slapping, grabbing, shoving, are all included in this.

I timed myself reading that (part in red print). It took me 18 seconds to say it. Obviously, it is not complex. And I'm sure that teachers can some up with that 18 seconds to say that. And no, not all people know what the basic laws are. Many, if not most, are oblivious to even basic laws that they NEED to know which could land them in jail if they don't, and which could cause them (et al) to get hurt or even killed. I suspect that neither Trayvon Martin or Michael Brown knew they were breaking a law with George Zimmerman or the clerk in the convenience store.

I'll ask you also about a very basic law, just like I asked 2 other people in this thread who flunked the question with flying colors. 2 cars crash. Neither driver is hurt, but damage has been done to the cars. What, under Florida law or the laws of the state you reside in, are these drivers required to do ? What would you do ?

My "rendition" ? Rendition of what ? And no, we are NOT looking at "perspectives of a situation" That is totally wrong. I'm not talking about something SUBjective. I'm talking about something 100% OBjective (ie, xcriminal law, which documented and you other know what it says, or you don't)

And no, "Criminal law is not something most people need on order to pursue a college education and/or a career." It is something people need to know in order to go about everyday life without getting themselves in trouble and/or in jail.

 

[protectionist]

Not clear what you want taught

That murder is a crime? Do you want to teach the drug laws and how much you are allowed to carry? How about the traffic laws or business laws? Rape laws?

How about their Constitutional right to free speech or protection from unreasonable search and seizure?

Yes it's clear. It couldn't be more clear. Teach kids that any unrequested touching of another person is a crime, and you could go to jail for a year for it (obviously includes punching, slapping, shoving, etc) That's not clear ? don't talk stupid. And yes, the traffic laws - the basic ones (do YOU know them - what you NEED to know, to stay out of jail ?) Basic drug law - yes. Rape - yes. All these are far more important than who sailed around the world in the 1500s. Get it ?

As for their Constitutional right to free speech or protection from unreasonable search and seizure, sure they should be taught that. But that's ALREADY being taught. The basic criminal law usually isn't. Get it ?

 

[protectionist]

At least I have pegged you as a troll and will not waste any more time trying to answer stupid questions. Why don't you show me where leaving the scene of an accident is in my state curriculum? I must have missed it.

No, you DON'T have me pegged as a troll. That is just a deflect defense for your embarassment at being shown to be ignorant of basic law, that by your ignorance of it, could land you in jail. And the questions aren't stupid. You could do jail time because of not knowing the answers (as you obviously don't) That means it is a very important question, that YOU (and every driver NEEDS TO KNOW)

As for whether leaving the scene of an accident is in your state education curriculum, I would guess it isn't, since few people here in Florida (one of the states you cited) know what to do if/whenever they get in an accident.

 

[protectionist]

if they want or need advice on the law, they should speak to an attorney. I don't know what kids you've been around, but my son made it to college without ever having to day "I didn't know it was against the law to drive a car without a license".

But does your son (OR YOU) know what to do if/whenever you get in an accident ? You and him better. If you don't, you or he could be heading to jail. And these are simple, elementary things that we all should know, need to know, and shouldn't have to talk to an attorney for, and are things that could be taught in the classroom in less than ONE MINUTE

 

[protectionist]

xxxxxxxx

 

[protectionist]

i'm going to guess he just found out that ignorance of the law is not a defense to a criminal act of some type.

No, you don't guess that. You're just scrounging that up as something to say, to pretend that you're not just as lost on this critically important piece of simple, fundamental law as is Admiral whatever his name is. So, I guess since both of you have floundered about with this long enough, and clearly shown you could have used some education in school about it, I will explain it to you. And I'll use Florida law, since that's where I live, and also a state which the Admiral cited in the thread.

Under Florida law, there is Section 316.061 - briefly it states that when involved in a car crash, in addition to making a reasonable effort to get your car out of the flow of traffic, you may not leave the scene of the accident until you have met the requirements of Section 316.062. So 061 is dependent upon 062. So what does 062 say ?

062 states that you must render aid to an injured driver, and you must give the driver of the other car involved in the crash, 4 things >>

1. Your name

2. Your address

3'.. Your driver;s license number

4. Your car registration number

In addition, there is Section 316.065, which requires you to call the police if you are in a car crash, in which there is an apparent damage of $500 or more.

If you know these few simple regulations, you can keep yourself out of trouble. If you don't, you could land in jail.

No charge for the tutoring

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

At least I have pegged you as a troll and will not waste any more time trying to answer stupid questions. Why don't you show me where leaving the scene of an accident is in my state curriculum? I must have missed it.

No, you DON'T have me pegged as a troll. That is just a deflect defense for your embarassment at being shown to be ignorant of basic law, that by your ignorance of it, could land you in jail. And the questions aren't stupid. You could do jail time because of not knowing the answers (as you obviously don't) That means it is a very important question, that YOU (and every driver NEEDS TO KNOW)

As for whether leaving the scene of an accident is in your state education curriculum, I would guess it isn't, since few people here in Florida (one of the states you cited) know what to do if/whenever they get in an accident.

Please point out where I said I did not know. I said it is not what I teach. When you get appointed to my state school board, then you can set the curriculum.

In my state, you never leave the scene of an accident that has resulted in injury, death or any property damage Have a nice day, troll!.