TEACHERS: This Important Question Is For You

[protectionist]

Are there any teachers out there on this board, teaching 5th grade or higher ? If so, please answer this question for me. How much time have you spent in the classroom, teaching kids about THE LAW ? When I was in school (a long time ago), I went through 17 years of schooling (to a year of graduate school), and other than one business law course in high school (an elective), I don't recall a single minute of education about the law, and ZERO regarding criminal law. My kids tell me the same about their educational years.

So now, fast foward to the past couple of years of social events in America. A 17 year old kid (Trayvon Martin) gets blown away after throwing punches at a neighborhood watch guy who was observing him. An 18 year old kid, Michael Brown, roughs up a convenience store clerk, and then attacks a cop. And then, thousands of young blacks fight with cops in the street, and throw rocks at them in during what could have been peaceful protests.

Are these kids oblivious to the fact that 1) they stand a good chance of being shot to death and 2) being arrested for a violent CRIME ? Do these kids have any idea that what they're doing is illegal ? Strange as it may seem, I don't think they do. And my guess is one of the reasons is the lack of education on the law.

Even many adults my own age (69) are still unaware that a minor, physical attack on them (or anyone over 65 in Florida) can result in 5 years of imprisonment in a state prison. (1 yr county jail on people under 65). And what is the law on the charge of battery ? Exactly what constitutes the commission of this crime ? Technically, any unrequested touching is a battery (called "assault" in some states)

So what's up, teachers ? Are the kids learning what they need to know to be law-abiding citizens, or are they being allowed to roam the streets like wild dogs, with no idea of what they are going to be held responsible for ? What is going on in those classrooms, or NOT going on, pertaining to criminal law ?

 

[protectionist]

I'm just wondering if even ONE single teacher, in the whole United States, will tell me that he/she taught criminal law to kids.

 

[The Great Goose]

Until recently I taught at a predominantly black high school in a south eastern state.



The mainstream press gives a hint of what conditions are like in black schools, but only a hint. Expressions journalists use like “chaotic” or “poor learning environment” or “lack of discipline” do not capture what really happens. There is nothing like the day-to-day experience of teaching black children and that is what I will try to convey.

Most whites simply do not know what black people are like in large numbers, and the first encounter can be a shock.

One of the most immediately striking things about my students was that they were loud. They had little conception of ordinary decorum. It was not unusual for five blacks to be screaming at me at once. Instead of calming down and waiting for a lull in the din to make their point — something that occurs to even the dimmest white students — blacks just tried to yell over each other.

It did no good to try to quiet them, and white women were particularly inept at trying. I sat in on one woman’s class as she begged the children to pipe down. They just yelled louder so their voices would carry over hers.

Many of my black students would repeat themselves over and over again — just louder. It was as if they suffered from Tourette syndrome. They seemed to have no conception of waiting for an appropriate time to say something. They would get ideas in their heads and simply had to shout them out. I might be leading a discussion on government and suddenly be interrupted: “We gotta get more Democrats! Clinton, she good!” The student may seem content with that outburst but two minutes later, he would suddenly start yelling again: “Clinton good!”

Anyone who is around young blacks will probably get a constant diet of rap music. Blacks often make up their own jingles, and it was not uncommon for 15 black boys to swagger into a classroom, bouncing their shoulders and jiving back.

They were yelling back and forth, rapping 15 different sets of words in the same harsh, rasping dialect. The words were almost invariably a childish form of boasting: “Who got dem shine rim, who got dem shine shoe, who got dem shine grill (gold and silver dental caps)?” The amateur rapper usually ends with a claim–in the crudest terms imaginable — that all womankind is sexually devoted to him. For whatever reason, my students would often groan instead of saying a particular word, as in, “She suck dat aaahhhh (think of a long grinding groan), she f**k dat aaaahhhh, she lick dat ahhhhhhhh.

 

[DGS49]

I think it's a bit much to expect public school teachers to instruct students on the details of the criminal law. OTOH, students should be taught the basic concepts contained in the Constitution and bill of rights, and the basics of federal and state governments (three branches, how they work together, and so forth).

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I have taught middle and high school social studies. In the 9th grade in Florida and Kentucky, law is covered in courses called American Government and American Studies. It is covered, so what is the root question?

 

[protectionist]

Until recently I taught at a predominantly black high school in a south eastern state.

The mainstream press gives a hint of what conditions are like in black schools, but only a hint. Expressions journalists use like “chaotic” or “poor learning environment” or “lack of discipline” do not capture what really happens. There is nothing like the day-to-day experience of teaching black children and that is what I will try to convey.

Most whites simply do not know what black people are like in large numbers, and the first encounter can be a shock.

One of the most immediately striking things about my students was that they were loud. They had little conception of ordinary decorum. It was not unusual for five blacks to be screaming at me at once. Instead of calming down and waiting for a lull in the din to make their point — something that occurs to even the dimmest white students — blacks just tried to yell over each other.

It did no good to try to quiet them, and white women were particularly inept at trying. I sat in on one woman’s class as she begged the children to pipe down. They just yelled louder so their voices would carry over hers.

Many of my black students would repeat themselves over and over again — just louder. It was as if they suffered from Tourette syndrome. They seemed to have no conception of waiting for an appropriate time to say something. They would get ideas in their heads and simply had to shout them out. I might be leading a discussion on government and suddenly be interrupted: “We gotta get more Democrats! Clinton, she good!” The student may seem content with that outburst but two minutes later, he would suddenly start yelling again: “Clinton good!”

Anyone who is around young blacks will probably get a constant diet of rap music. Blacks often make up their own jingles, and it was not uncommon for 15 black boys to swagger into a classroom, bouncing their shoulders and jiving back.

They were yelling back and forth, rapping 15 different sets of words in the same harsh, rasping dialect. The words were almost invariably a childish form of boasting: “Who got dem shine rim, who got dem shine shoe, who got dem shine grill (gold and silver dental caps)?” The amateur rapper usually ends with a claim–in the crudest terms imaginable — that all womankind is sexually devoted to him. For whatever reason, my students would often groan instead of saying a particular word, as in, “She suck dat aaahhhh (think of a long grinding groan), she f**k dat aaaahhhh, she lick dat ahhhhhhhh.

The solution to this is to call the police and have the offenders removed from the class, and arrested for Disturbing a classroom, as in the case of Spring Valley High School. And is everyone in the class is doing this stuff, then bring in enough officers to arrest the WHOLE CLASS, and haul them off in a paddy wagon - 2 or 3 paddy wagons if necessary. The worst thing to do , is to do nothing, and allow this crap to go on, because then, you're telling the kids it's OK (exactly the wrong message to send).

 

[protectionist]

I have taught middle and high school social studies. In the 9th grade in Florida and Kentucky, law is covered in courses called American Government and American Studies. It is covered, so what is the root question?

What kind of "law" ?

 

[TheOldSchool]

Until recently I taught at a predominantly black high school in a south eastern state.



The mainstream press gives a hint of what conditions are like in black schools, but only a hint. Expressions journalists use like “chaotic” or “poor learning environment” or “lack of discipline” do not capture what really happens. There is nothing like the day-to-day experience of teaching black children and that is what I will try to convey.

Most whites simply do not know what black people are like in large numbers, and the first encounter can be a shock.

One of the most immediately striking things about my students was that they were loud. They had little conception of ordinary decorum. It was not unusual for five blacks to be screaming at me at once. Instead of calming down and waiting for a lull in the din to make their point — something that occurs to even the dimmest white students — blacks just tried to yell over each other.

It did no good to try to quiet them, and white women were particularly inept at trying. I sat in on one woman’s class as she begged the children to pipe down. They just yelled louder so their voices would carry over hers.

Many of my black students would repeat themselves over and over again — just louder. It was as if they suffered from Tourette syndrome. They seemed to have no conception of waiting for an appropriate time to say something. They would get ideas in their heads and simply had to shout them out. I might be leading a discussion on government and suddenly be interrupted: “We gotta get more Democrats! Clinton, she good!” The student may seem content with that outburst but two minutes later, he would suddenly start yelling again: “Clinton good!”

Anyone who is around young blacks will probably get a constant diet of rap music. Blacks often make up their own jingles, and it was not uncommon for 15 black boys to swagger into a classroom, bouncing their shoulders and jiving back.

They were yelling back and forth, rapping 15 different sets of words in the same harsh, rasping dialect. The words were almost invariably a childish form of boasting: “Who got dem shine rim, who got dem shine shoe, who got dem shine grill (gold and silver dental caps)?” The amateur rapper usually ends with a claim–in the crudest terms imaginable — that all womankind is sexually devoted to him. For whatever reason, my students would often groan instead of saying a particular word, as in, “She suck dat aaahhhh (think of a long grinding groan), she f**k dat aaaahhhh, she lick dat ahhhhhhhh.

Well that sucks that you were bad at your job and did a disservice to those children who were unlucky enough to have you as a teacher.

 

[protectionist]

I think it's a bit much to expect public school teachers to instruct students on the details of the criminal law. OTOH, students should be taught the basic concepts contained in the Constitution and bill of rights, and the basics of federal and state governments (three branches, how they work together, and so forth).

Please give ONE REASON why it would be "too much to expect public school teachers to instruct students on the details of the criminal law." I consider this to be one of the most absolutely PREPOSTEROUS statements I have ever heard. It's too much to tell kids that hitting somebody is a crime ? Or even threatening someone in their presence ? It took me a few seconds to type that. It takes even less seconds to say it.

Good grief! What strange mentalities are floating around nowadays.

it would not be too much to tell kids many things about criminal law, including some of those things that are required of motorists when you get in an accident, Not knowing a few simple things like this can land you in jail. These are things people NEED TO KNOW, for everyday living, much more necessary than knowing about how branches of govt interact.

 

[mgh80]

I teach high school (English) and we've studied the Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) in class. As for criminal justice--that's an elective.

 

[protectionist]

I teach high school (English) and we've studied the Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) in class. As for criminal justice--that's an elective.

It should be required . Not knowing it, can cause kids to wind up in jail, or be dead (and/or cause other people to be dead).

 

[TheOldSchool]

I teach high school (English) and we've studied the Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) in class. As for criminal justice--that's an elective.

It should be required . Not knowing it, can cause kids to wind up in jail, or be dead.

It is. You will fail to find a single school that doesn't teach the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

 

[mgh80]

I teach high school (English) and we've studied the Constitution (specifically the Bill of Rights) in class. As for criminal justice--that's an elective.

It should be required . Not knowing it, can cause kids to wind up in jail, or be dead (and/or cause other people to be dead).

English is a core class which means that every student must take (and receive a credit) for it. The Bill of Rights is in the curriculum. I can lose my job if I don't teach it.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

I have taught middle and high school social studies. In the 9th grade in Florida and Kentucky, law is covered in courses called American Government and American Studies. It is covered, so what is the root question?

What kind of "law" ?

Constitutional law, criminal law, and the whole kit and kaboodle.

 

[protectionist]

It is. You will fail to find a single school that doesn't teach the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

I'm not talking about the Constitution & Bill of Rights. They won't help you if you don't know the law, and you hit somebody thinking it is legal. Or if you're in a car accident, and you don't give the other car's driver the required information. You'll go to jail, because of your ignorance of the law, caused by insufficient school teaching.

 

[protectionist]

English is a core class which means that every student must take (and receive a credit) for it. The Bill of Rights is in the curriculum. I can lose my job if I don't teach it.

OFF TOPIC. We are talking about specific criminal law that you are prohibited from breaking, not fundamentallegal rights that you have.

 

[protectionist]

Constitutional law, criminal law, and the whole kit and kaboodle.

So you taught criminal law in Florida, then how about the law commonly called "Leaving the scene of an accident" ? If so, can you explain it here ? You're the teacher right ? And here's a hypthothetical case., 2 crash. Neither driver is hurt but damage has been done to the cars. What, under Florida law, are these drivers required to do /

 

[jillian]

Are there any teachers out there on this board, teaching 5th grade or higher ? If so, please answer this question for me. How much time have you spent in the classroom, teaching kids about THE LAW ? When I was in school (a long time ago), I went through 17 years of schooling (to a year of graduate school), and other than one business law course in high school (an elective), I don't recall a single minute of education about the law, and ZERO regarding criminal law. My kids tell me the same about their educational years.

So now, fast foward to the past couple of years of social events in America. A 17 year old kid (Trayvon Martin) gets blown away after throwing punches at a neighborhood watch guy who was observing him. An 18 year old kid, Michael Brown, roughs up a convenience store clerk, and then attacks a cop. And then, thousands of young blacks fight with cops in the street, and throw rocks at them in during what could have been peaceful protests.

Are these kids oblivious to the fact that 1) they stand a good chance of being shot to death and 2) being arrested for a violent CRIME ? Do these kids have any idea that what they're doing is illegal ? Strange as it may seem, I don't think they do. And my guess is one of the reasons is the lack of education on the law.

Even many adults my own age (69) are still unaware that a minor, physical attack on them (or anyone over 65 in Florida) can result in 5 years of imprisonment in a state prison. (1 yr county jail on people under 65). And what is the law on the charge of battery ? Exactly what constitutes the commission of this crime ? Technically, any unrequested touching is a battery (called "assault" in some states)

So what's up, teachers ? Are the kids learning what they need to know to be law-abiding citizens, or are they being allowed to roam the streets like wild dogs, with no idea of what they are going to be held responsible for ? What is going on in those classrooms, or NOT going on, pertaining to criminal law ?

most people don't know anything about "the law" and shouldn't teach it. you know that you can't attack someone. you know you can't steal. most kids are pretty good at finding out what drug laws are.

it is not the responsibility of teachers to teach those things. people are either law-abiding or they aren't.

 

[jillian]

Constitutional law, criminal law, and the whole kit and kaboodle.

So you taught criminal law in Florida, then how about the law commonly called "Leaving the scene of an accident" ? If so, can you explain it here ? You're the teacher right ? And here's a hypthothetical case., 2 crash. Neither driver is hurt but damage has been done to the cars. What, under Florida law, are these drivers required to do /

most people know they can't leave the scene of an accident. if you don't, i'd suggest your problem is not that you don't have someone spoon-feeding those things to you.

 

[CremeBrulee]

Your car crash hypothetical is usually covered in Drivers Ed. Teachers only have so much time to cover their given subjects. Which one should lose classroom time so the penal code can be taught? Geometry? English? Chemistry? Given the high amount of contact black people in the United States have with the criminal justice system, I think it would be fair to say, these kids have a better grasp of what is or is not a crime than many adults. We certainly shouldn't be blaming educators for students engaging in criminal activity outside the classroom.