Taxing those who make money

[SpidermanTuba]

So you support the idea of someone innocently asking a question about something he admits he knows little about getting berated by the one who answers the question?

Sorry, I'm just honestly amazed at this. You're having a conservation about income tax and you don't even know how income tax works. Its just funny, I can't help but laugh. Please tell me you don't vote.

 

[Oldandtired]

How did you get to be a business owner and old without understanding how the income tax system brackets worked?

I am amazed.

I can recite all I need to recite as it pertains to corp taxes...and payroll taxes....

And at least I own companies that employ....not some loser "worker" all my life complaining about the business owners.....you know....like you.

Go to hell USC.....

You are an asshole....I see you were all along.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

How did you get to be a business owner and old without understanding how the income tax system brackets worked?

I am amazed.

That's what's the most amazing thing.

 

[Oldandtired]

So you support the idea of someone innocently asking a question about something he admits he knows little about getting berated by the one who answers the question?

Sorry, I'm just honestly amazed at this. You're having a conservation about income tax and you don't even know how income tax works. Its just funny, I can't help but laugh. Please tell me you don't vote.

Now wait a minute...I know how tax brackets work....

I am referring to the 3% thing....I was told that was levied on all 250K....as something different than normal tax brackets......

I am not referring to the typical tax charts...I was referring to the added 3%.

 

[Oldandtired]

If you are not too lazy...read my posts...I was referring to the 250K threshold.......
I was told the 3% increase is on all 250K and above....

Reading back, I made that clear.

So you dare to debate without knowing how to comprehend what you read?

Asshole.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Now wait a minute...I know how tax brackets work....

OK. I believe you. Much easier to believe you understand how they work than how they don't (but not nearly as funny).

I am referring to the 3% thing....I was told that was levied on all 250K....as something different than normal tax brackets......

I have no idea what you are talking about. The marginal rate for 250k will increase from 33% to 36%, maybe that's what you're thinking of.

 

[CMike]

How did you get to be a business owner and old without understanding how the income tax system brackets worked?

I am amazed.

That's what's the most amazing thing.

 

[uscitizen]

How did you get to be a business owner and old without understanding how the income tax system brackets worked?

I am amazed.

I can recite all I need to recite as it pertains to corp taxes...and payroll taxes....

And at least I own companies that employ....not some loser "worker" all my life complaining about the business owners.....you know....like you.

Go to hell USC.....

You are an asshole....I see you were all along.

I had a nice little business auto climate control and electronics repair. Helped out the local vo tech by taking interns from their program, etc.
I paid my employees very well for this area even provided health ins and then sold the business to them when I got to decrepit to fool with it.

I grew my business over 100% in less than 2 years.

Sorry you got pissed off/on, but you got yourself into it.

 

[Oldandtired]

Now wait a minute...I know how tax brackets work....

OK. I believe you. Much easier to believe you understand how they work than how they don't (but not nearly as funny).

I am referring to the 3% thing....I was told that was levied on all 250K....as something different than normal tax brackets......

I have no idea what you are talking about. The marginal rate for 250k will increase from 33% to 36%, maybe that's what you're thinking of.

Yes...I was informed that the additonal 3% ios on the entire income.

I simpoly asked if I was wrong.

Obviously, I am.

Sorry I did not pan out to be the moron you would like me to be.

Maybe you should take a reading comprehension course.

 

[CMike]

The rate charts don't include state taxes

 

[Oldandtired]

How did you get to be a business owner and old without understanding how the income tax system brackets worked?

I am amazed.

I can recite all I need to recite as it pertains to corp taxes...and payroll taxes....

And at least I own companies that employ....not some loser "worker" all my life complaining about the business owners.....you know....like you.

Go to hell USC.....

You are an asshole....I see you were all along.

I had a nice little business auto climate control and electronics repair. Helped out the local vo tech by taking interns from their program, etc.
I paid my employees very well for this area even provided health ins and then sold the business to them when I got to decrepit to fool with it.

I grew my business over 100% in less than 2 years.

Sorry you got pissed off/on, but you got yourself into it.

Nope...you and tuba decided to take what I wrote and turn it into something it wasnt...and run with it.

I suggest you read back. I was quite clear as to what my question was.....and what I knew...I even said at the beginning that as the tax brackets WERE, I agreed with tuba...but that I was told that the new 3% for those over 250K was on ALL 250K..

Mis-informed...maybe....a rediculous thought? Why? It moist certainly copuld have been that.

Go back to your sarcasm.......tired of you twisting my woirds for your personal pleasure.

 

[CMike]

So you support the idea of someone innocently asking a question about something he admits he knows little about getting berated by the one who answers the question?

Sorry, I'm just honestly amazed at this. You're having a conservation about income tax and you don't even know how income tax works. Its just funny, I can't help but laugh. Please tell me you don't vote.

 

[Soggy in NOLA]

Spiderman is a douche.. ignore him. He doesn't have a fucking clue as to what he is talking about.

 

[Oldandtired]

So you support the idea of someone innocently asking a question about something he admits he knows little about getting berated by the one who answers the question?

Sorry, I'm just honestly amazed at this. You're having a conservation about income tax and you don't even know how income tax works. Its just funny, I can't help but laugh. Please tell me you don't vote.

Tuba twisted what I asked.
But if you wish to believe what he claims and call me an asshole....go for it.
It is your right.

 

[CMike]

Sorry, I'm just honestly amazed at this. You're having a conservation about income tax and you don't even know how income tax works. Its just funny, I can't help but laugh. Please tell me you don't vote.

Tuba twisted what I asked.
But if you wish to believe what he claims and call me an asshole....go for it.
It is your right.

I was calling Spider an asshole for being so disrespectful to you.

 

[drsmith1072]

99% of the 93 foot thick Tax Code is to allow those that have money to avoid paying taxes.
Do away with the IRS and go to the fair tax.
When I buy a case of suds I pay the same as the next guy.
Should be the same with taxes. Taxing high achievers more is unproductive to wealth expansion.
Folks claim they want a bigger slice of the pie. What morons.
If the pie gets bigger more get a slice.

I kind of agree with the first part of your statement but the problem is that the same thing that has happened recently will continue to happen. Those who make more will get the tax cuts and the loopholes they use to avoid paying their fair share based on what they actually earn (including investments and income) will still exist and will still be exploited.

Bush gave taxcuts and the loop holes still existed. Those who were on top began trying to rake in more and more, hide their true wealth and income, while pushing stagnating wages onto a working class that has no other option but to work in an environment where the working class is constantly pushed down as those on top whine about being taxed BECAUSE (IMO) they refuse to follow through with trickle down economics while they horde everything for themselves.

Republicans preached trickle down economics for years and years and still do. However, the REALITY of it is, that it doesn't work because those at the top stopped the flow of anything trickling down.
Those on the bottom working at the same company for years with no pay increases as those at the top lay people off to cover for their own pay increases and bonuses they received for laying people off and making the numbers look good.

The pie got bigger and those who helped make it bigger through their hard work (the employees) still get the same size slice (or smaller or maybe none at all if they got laid off) and the slices for those at the top keeps getting bigger and bigger.

I mean it's a nice idea IF it actually worked. However, it's been tried and it DOESN'T work. Even at lower taxes wealth expansion occured but then those with expanded individual wealth didn't trickle that down to those who worked day in and day out to help them expand their individual wealth.

The problem is that at the end of the day greed won out and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

 

[American Horse]

99% of the 93 foot thick Tax Code is to allow those that have money to avoid paying taxes.
Do away with the IRS and go to the fair tax.
When I buy a case of suds I pay the same as the next guy.
Should be the same with taxes. Taxing high achievers more is unproductive to wealth expansion.
Folks claim they want a bigger slice of the pie. What morons.
If the pie gets bigger more get a slice.

I kind of agree with the first part of your statement but the problem is that the same thing that has happened recently will continue to happen. Those who make more will get the tax cuts and the loopholes they use to avoid paying their fair share based on what they actually earn (including investments and income) will still exist and will still be exploited.

Bush gave taxcuts and the loop holes still existed. Those who were on top began trying to rake in more and more, hide their true wealth and income, while pushing stagnating wages onto a working class that has no other option but to work in an environment where the working class is constantly pushed down as those on top whine about being taxed BECAUSE (IMO) they refuse to follow through with trickle down economics while they horde everything for themselves.

Republicans preached trickle down economics for years and years and still do. However, the REALITY of it is, that it doesn't work because those at the top stopped the flow of anything trickling down.
Those on the bottom working at the same company for years with no pay increases as those at the top lay people off to cover for their own pay increases and bonuses they received for laying people off and making the numbers look good.

The pie got bigger and those who helped make it bigger through their hard work (the employees) still get the same size slice (or smaller or maybe none at all if they got laid off) and the slices for those at the top keeps getting bigger and bigger.

I mean it's a nice idea IF it actually worked. However, it's been tried and it DOESN'T work. Even at lower taxes wealth expansion occured but then those with expanded individual wealth didn't trickle that down to those who worked day in and day out to help them expand their individual wealth.

The problem is that at the end of the day greed won out and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

New Jersey Governor Freezes Spending - WSJ.com
[A] "study by Boston College's Center on Wealth and Philanthropy looked at 1999 to 2008 economy in New Jersey. It found that in the decade's first half New Jersey experienced a "substantial increase in both household wealth and charitable capacity," otherwise known as "expected giving." During those five years the Garden State had a $98 billion net influx of capital due to wealthy households moving into the state, and it enjoyed a corresponding $881 MILLION increase in "charitable capacity."

New Jersey’s economy was growing. Then the trend reversed. From 2004-2008, saw a large decline in the number of wealthy households entering New Jersey" as well as "a moderate increase in the outflow of wealthy households leaving." The result: a net decline of $70 billion in household wealth while the "expected giving" became a net outflow of $1.132 BILLION.

So what happened in 2004? The study doesn't purport to explain what caused the wealth movements. But the state's most notable economic policy event that year was an increase in its top income tax rate to 8.97% from 6.37%, on incomes starting at $500,000. That's a 40% increase. ....

The study found that the state's out-migration from 2004-2008 went primarily to New York and Pennsylvania, both of which have lower top tax rates. But the third most popular destination was Florida, which has no income tax and no estate tax. The Sunshine State received 17% of the households, 20% of the capital flight and 37% of the charitable capacity that left New Jersey. ....

The number of wealthy households coming from New York, for example, "declined by half, their average wealth declined by half, their aggregate wealth declined by 75% and their expected giving declined by 70%." In other words, by soaking "the rich" with high taxes, liberals end up harming the charities that benefit from rich donors. ...."

Wealth does not necessarily “trickle” down in the way you seem to hope for. Wealthy people do not put their money under the mattress nor store it in off-shore accounts. But they might if tax laws become so onerous that doing that becomes the best way to hang on to it. They put their money in banks or invest it in stocks, among other places. Your local bank finances projects in your local area. If a young person wants to start-up a new small business, and in a year or two, once established, can show that he could profitably expand that business, then the “wealth being stored" in the local bank will be made available for the business’s expansion. The expansion often means he will need additional employees, vehicles, tools and equipment manufactured elsewhere.

Wealthy people also spend their money on their favorite thing, themselves. They will build a larger home in a neighborhood near you. When they do that their old house will allow someone else move up to better quarters, and on down the line, allowing some people to leave apartments. The wealthy individual may purchase a “toy”, a boat, or a classic car. The servicing of those desires employs people in specialties in the local economy. They may just begin a program of improvement in their own residence, or help each of their children build a new house. All these things make for a strong local economy. Without them, instead, you have a weak local economy.

And a sure-fire way to alienate wealth from the local economy and from meritorious people is to punish the wealthy with higher taxes and/or more regulation. An attempt to punish the luxury yacht industry in New England led to fewer yachts and boats being sold, thus not being built. That led to lost jobs and closed shops, before the legislators recognized their folly. The effort to punish CEO’s for large annual salaries in the early 90’s led to the flourish of stock options and the Enron debacle. This scheme flowed out of little more than a law to limit’s publicly held business’s expensing of salaries exceeding a $1-million per annum, as a part of the cost of doing business. Stock options, however, qualified for the corporate tax deduction without limitation.
See this link - Yale Law School

When I was coming up, it was normal to look around for possibilities to engage in a self owned business. During and after the depression my father went out every single day working for people in whatever they wanted done, and lined up work to be scheduled for later. He supported, himself included, a family of 8. As an independent contractor I serviced the needs of people with more money than I had, or money that flowed out of their resources such as the local bank, for more than 4-decades, and made a good living at it. You can do that by developing a marketable skill and selling that skill to satisfy the needs of others, preferably their luxury needs.

 

[drsmith1072]

99% of the 93 foot thick Tax Code is to allow those that have money to avoid paying taxes.
Do away with the IRS and go to the fair tax.
When I buy a case of suds I pay the same as the next guy.
Should be the same with taxes. Taxing high achievers more is unproductive to wealth expansion.
Folks claim they want a bigger slice of the pie. What morons.
If the pie gets bigger more get a slice.

I kind of agree with the first part of your statement but the problem is that the same thing that has happened recently will continue to happen. Those who make more will get the tax cuts and the loopholes they use to avoid paying their fair share based on what they actually earn (including investments and income) will still exist and will still be exploited.

Bush gave taxcuts and the loop holes still existed. Those who were on top began trying to rake in more and more, hide their true wealth and income, while pushing stagnating wages onto a working class that has no other option but to work in an environment where the working class is constantly pushed down as those on top whine about being taxed BECAUSE (IMO) they refuse to follow through with trickle down economics while they horde everything for themselves.

Republicans preached trickle down economics for years and years and still do. However, the REALITY of it is, that it doesn't work because those at the top stopped the flow of anything trickling down.
Those on the bottom working at the same company for years with no pay increases as those at the top lay people off to cover for their own pay increases and bonuses they received for laying people off and making the numbers look good.

The pie got bigger and those who helped make it bigger through their hard work (the employees) still get the same size slice (or smaller or maybe none at all if they got laid off) and the slices for those at the top keeps getting bigger and bigger.

I mean it's a nice idea IF it actually worked. However, it's been tried and it DOESN'T work. Even at lower taxes wealth expansion occured but then those with expanded individual wealth didn't trickle that down to those who worked day in and day out to help them expand their individual wealth.

The problem is that at the end of the day greed won out and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

New Jersey Governor Freezes Spending - WSJ.com
[A] "study by Boston College's Center on Wealth and Philanthropy looked at 1999 to 2008 economy in New Jersey. It found that in the decade's first half New Jersey experienced a "substantial increase in both household wealth and charitable capacity," otherwise known as "expected giving." During those five years the Garden State had a $98 billion net influx of capital due to wealthy households moving into the state, and it enjoyed a corresponding $881 MILLION increase in "charitable capacity."

New Jersey’s economy was growing. Then the trend reversed. From 2004-2008, saw a large decline in the number of wealthy households entering New Jersey" as well as "a moderate increase in the outflow of wealthy households leaving." The result: a net decline of $70 billion in household wealth while the "expected giving" became a net outflow of $1.132 BILLION.

So what happened in 2004? The study doesn't purport to explain what caused the wealth movements. But the state's most notable economic policy event that year was an increase in its top income tax rate to 8.97% from 6.37%, on incomes starting at $500,000. That's a 40% increase. ....

The study found that the state's out-migration from 2004-2008 went primarily to New York and Pennsylvania, both of which have lower top tax rates. But the third most popular destination was Florida, which has no income tax and no estate tax. The Sunshine State received 17% of the households, 20% of the capital flight and 37% of the charitable capacity that left New Jersey. ....

The number of wealthy households coming from New York, for example, "declined by half, their average wealth declined by half, their aggregate wealth declined by 75% and their expected giving declined by 70%." In other words, by soaking "the rich" with high taxes, liberals end up harming the charities that benefit from rich donors. ....

The number of wealthy households coming from New York, for example, "declined by half, their average wealth declined by half, their aggregate wealth declined by 75% and their expected giving declined by 70%." In other words, by soaking "the rich" with high taxes, liberals end up harming the charities that benefit from rich donors. ...."

Wealth does not necessarily “trickle” down in the way you seem to hope for. Wealthy people do not put their money under the mattress nor store it in off-shore accounts. But they might if tax laws become so onerous that doing that becomes the best way to hang on to it. They put their money in banks or invest it in stocks, among other places. Your local bank finances projects in your local area. If a young person wants to start-up a new small business, and in a year or two, once established, can show that he could profitably expand that business, then the “wealth being stored" in the local bank will be made available for the business’s expansion. The expansion often means he will need additional employees, vehicles, tools and equipment manufactured elsewhere.

Wealthy people also spend their money on their favorite thing, themselves. They will build a larger home in a neighborhood near you. When they do that their old house will allow someone else move up to better quarters, and on down the line, allowing some people to leave apartments. The wealthy individual may purchase a “toy”, a boat, or a classic car. The servicing of those desires employs people in specialties in the local economy. They may just begin a program of improvement in their own residence, or help each of their children build a new house. All these things make for a strong local economy. Without them, instead, you have a weak local economy.

And a sure-fire way to alienate wealth from the local economy and from meritorious people is to punish the wealthy with higher taxes and/or more regulation. An attempt to punish the luxury yacht industry in New England led to fewer yachts and boats being sold, thus not being built. That led to lost jobs and closed shops, before the legislators recognized their folly. The effort to punish CEO’s for large annual salaries in the early 90’s led to the flourish of stock options and the Enron debacle. This scheme flowed out of little more than a law to limit’s publicly held business’s expensing of salaries exceeding a $1-million per annum, as a part of the cost of doing business. Stock options, however, qualified for the corporate tax deduction without limitation.
See this link - Yale Law School

When I was coming up, it was normal to look around for possibilities to engage in a self owned business. During and after the depression my father went out every single day working for people in whatever they wanted done, and lined up work to be scheduled for later. He supported, himself included, a family of 8. As an independent contractor I serviced the needs of people with more money than I had, or money that flowed out of their resources such as the local bank, for more than 4-decades, and made a good living at it. You can do that by developing a marketable skill and selling that skill to satisfy the needs of others, preferably their luxury needs.

That's nice and all but what does the fact that states can impose whatever tax rate they want to actually have to do with the federal income tax??

The theory behind trickle down economics was that you give companies and wealthy executives at these companies tax breaks and they will take that extra money and create jobs which will increase the amount of money flowing back into the system as these new employees buy goods and services and contrinue this process.

The only problem is that in REALITY it hasn't worked. Pure and simple.

"allow someone else to move up to better quarters"?? Do they get the house for free?? Or how about at a discounted rate?? The fact is that these people "moving on up" still need to be able to AFFORD to buy that new house.

First off you tried to switch the argument from federal taxes to state taxes. Not exactly an honest way to debate.

Then you seem to be ignoring the reality as you focus on the delusions that everything with just miraculously fall into place when reality doesn't work that way.

 

[American Horse]

That's nice and all but what does the fact that states can impose whatever tax rate they want to actually have to do with the federal income tax??

The theory behind trickle down economics was that you give companies and wealthy executives at these companies tax breaks and they will take that extra money and create jobs which will increase the amount of money flowing back into the system as these new employees buy goods and services and contrinue this process.

The only problem is that in REALITY it hasn't worked. Pure and simple.

"allow someone else to move up to better quarters"?? Do they get the house for free?? Or how about at a discounted rate?? The fact is that these people "moving on up" still need to be able to AFFORD to buy that new house.

First off you tried to switch the argument from federal taxes to state taxes. Not exactly an honest way to debate.

Then you seem to be ignoring the reality as you focus on the delusions that everything with just miraculously fall into place when reality doesn't work that way.

Taxes are taxes. If an increase in taxes of less than 5% for upper earners in a state can cause them to leave and take their money with them, or find another place for their money, the same can happen in a country, and has for a long time. Wealth can, and does leave this country, both as capital and as jobs. The good thing is that we can look at states and see our country in microcosm.

The theory was about what I described. Your theory is too narrow. Try to look at what I outlined and see how it might work for you. You may have to change jobs, and I might also recommend you change to a brighter group of friends. My example showed you how it does work, and how when wealth is taken away from a population they leave and take jobs and a sound economy with them.

No things don’t just miraculously fall into place, you have to make them fall into place through education, planning, responsibility, focus, etc.

I have never been jealous of people with money. Instead I admired them and wanted to be among their numbers. I never really succeeded in that way, but I have lived a really comfortable life, worked very hard, and enjoyed every day of it.

More than you know, it really is up to you.

 

[SpidermanTuba]

Taxes are taxes. If an increase in taxes of less than 5% for upper earners in a state can cause them to leave and take their money with them, or find another place for their money, the same can happen in a country, and has for a long time. Wealth can, and does leave this country, both as capital and as jobs. The good thing is that we can look at states and see our country in microcosm.

You talk about leaving the U.S.A. as if it were an equivalent decision as moving from one state to another within the U.S.A.