Stolen Valor, too many get by with it.

[Mushroom]

You claimed the PAAC only had 6 T6 Texans. You were flat asked wrong. They had 64 aircraft including fighters and bombers. Yes, they were obsolete, but they had them.

Then how many Texans did they have?

Oh, and I only listed the operational aircraft. Actually, they had a total of 8 A-27s, but only 1 was operational. Non-operational aircraft do not count.

OK, great. Now you are saying they had 64 fighters and bombers. That is even lower than my number, but alright. Let's look at this for a moment. You now say they had nearly 400 aircraft (a far cry from the over 400, but whatever), and of those only 64 were fighters and bombers.

What in the hell were 64 obsolete fighters and bombers going to do against over 440 attacking Japanese fighters and bombers? Ones which by the way were not obsolete but among the best in the world in 1941?

I also notice that you have still not admitted that the aircraft had not been doing nothing, as you have claimed over and over.

Sorry, all I see is that you keep spinning over and over, changing your claims and even contradicting your claims.

And no, as I have said I really do not like General MacArthur. However, i do really like facts, and I hate when people simply make stupid shit up and spout it out. That is what I find absolutely disgusting. If you had posted some actual facts, I would not have responded at all. And so far, all of your "claims" are absolutely without merit, and you have yet to provide any proof of anything other than insinuation.

Me, I have actually posted actual facts and numbers. You just spin like a top trying to get me and others to believe your false information without proof, then resort to insults when you can not provide any, and even apparently make them up as the FEAF had well more than the suddenly 64 fighters and bombers.

And let's think about that. Out of almost 400 aircraft, only 64 were fighters and bombers according to you now. What in the hell were around 350 non-combat aircraft exactly going to do against a Japanese onslaught?

 

[westwall]

Then how many Texans did they have?

Oh, and I only listed the operational aircraft. Actually, they had a total of 8 A-27s, but only 1 was operational. Non-operational aircraft do not count.

OK, great. Now you are saying they had 64 fighters and bombers. That is even lower than my number, but alright. Let's look at this for a moment. You now say they had nearly 400 aircraft (a far cry from the over 400, but whatever), and of those only 64 were fighters and bombers.

What in the hell were 64 obsolete fighters and bombers going to do against over 440 attacking Japanese fighters and bombers? Ones which by the way were not obsolete but among the best in the world in 1941?

I also notice that you have still not admitted that the aircraft had not been doing nothing, as you have claimed over and over.

Sorry, all I see is that you keep spinning over and over, changing your claims and even contradicting your claims.

And no, as I have said I really do not like General MacArthur. However, i do really like facts, and I hate when people simply make stupid shit up and spout it out. That is what I find absolutely disgusting. If you had posted some actual facts, I would not have responded at all. And so far, all of your "claims" are absolutely without merit, and you have yet to provide any proof of anything other than insinuation.

Me, I have actually posted actual facts and numbers. You just spin like a top trying to get me and others to believe your false information without proof, then resort to insults when you can not provide any, and even apparently make them up as the FEAF had well more than the suddenly 64 fighters and bombers.

And let's think about that. Out of almost 400 aircraft, only 64 were fighters and bombers according to you now. What in the hell were around 350 non-combat aircraft exactly going to do against a Japanese onslaught?

I think you are getting confused. The Phillipine Air force (called PAAC) an entity completely separate from the FEAF, had 64 aircraft. The FEAF had 400 aircraft. How about you get your facts straight and then come back. You are picking a fight because you seem to think you are the only source of factual information available. You ain't.

 

[Mushroom]

You are picking a fight because you seem to think you are the only source of factual information available. You ain't.

Funny, I use actual references that I have provided. You use your memory which is very faulty.

Still waiting on the reference for all that land that you said General MacArthur owned.

 

[westwall]

Funny, I use actual references that I have provided. You use your memory which is very faulty.

Still waiting on the reference for all that land that you said General MacArthur owned.

And a source that is highly accurate, but that you whined was 13 years old. The age of the post matters not so long as it is accurate.


I was wrong about him having land. He was paid .46% of the annual military budget, and in 1942 he was paid 500,000 by Quezon, I had read long ago that he was the owner of the Hotel, but he was merely a free loader. He lived in the palatial penthouse and because he cost the hotel so much he was made the general manager. The Phillipino's felt it was an honorary title, but good old mac took over the place.

Hence my misbelief.

 

[Mushroom]

And a source that is highly accurate, but that you whined was 13 years old. The age of the post matters not so long as it is accurate.

No, I did not complain about the age.

It is that it is an ancient vanity page that itself uses no references to validate any of their claims.

I often use source documents that are decades or more old, so it is not the age. However, notice I often use source documents themselves, not the spin that somebody else takes on them.

 

[westwall]

No, I did not complain about the age.

It is that it is an ancient vanity page that itself uses no references to validate any of their claims.

I often use source documents that are decades or more old, so it is not the age. However, notice I often use source documents themselves, not the spin that somebody else takes on them.

So do I. To include photos of pages of books. Most of my sources are books, or magazine or Journal articles.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Oh, I would love to see somebody trying that.

Remember, he actually retired back in October 1935. He was only recalled from retirement in late July 1941.

I would defy anybody to say he was "incompetent" in only 4 months of returned service.

But no matter what, the decision made was to retreat to Bataan and then hold out there and wait for the relief forces from the US to arrive. That was the battle plan from even before he was recalled. The only change he made to it was to fight for Luzon as long as possible, and not just retreat as soon as the Japanese attacked. And that was exactly what was done.

So unless somebody can make a valid claim that the defense of Luzon prior to the retreat to Bataan was not well executed, then there was no incompetence there on his part. Or that his decision to hold Luzon as long as possible before retreating to Bataan was a bad decision, there was not incompetence there either. The decision to both do that then send everybody to Bataan was made at the highest levels of the War Department, and they are the ones that also had the plan to send a large relief force to kick the Japanese off of the island.

In fact, on 8 December General Marshall ordered him to start the retreat to Bataan.

So exactly where is this "incompetence"?

And FYI, I actually have a pretty low opinion of General MacArthur. But he was given a shitty command, with shitty troops and shitty equipment. His main coastal defenses were manned by National Guard troops with outdated equipment that was broken most of the time even before he was put in charge. The supplies and reinforcements he was promised never arrived, and he was ordered against his wishes to retreat the day of the initial attack.

Heck, they did even better than the Asiatic Fleet did. And that was another example of the problems in the Philippines. In December 1941, that was composed of 15 ships of the line. 1 Heavy Cruiser, 1 Light Cruiser, and and 13 Destroyers in addition to subs and support craft. Upon news that Japan attacked, almost the entire fleet packed up and sailed for Australia. The only ones that remained behind were the handful of river gunboats, that could not have made the trip to Australia. Those were all captured, scuttled, or destroyed.

I don’t know where to start. He let his Air Force get caught on the ground and destroyed eight full hours after the Pearl Harbor attack. He abandoned all his pre-positioned supplies rather than moving them to Bataan. His forces had the best equipment the US had from M-3 gun motor carriage tank destroyers and M-3 Stuarts to B-17 bombers and P-40 fighters. His infantry had the same equipment that the US Army did and in better quantities. Shall I go on?

 

[AZrailwhale]

Oh wow, not even close to being accurate.

Here is a full accounting of the aircraft of the FEAF.

Fighters:

P-40 Warhawk: 89
P-35: 26
P-26 "Peashooter": 12

That's it, just 127 fighters.

Of course, there is the single operational A-27 that was there, which was the export version of the aforementioned T-6 Texan.

Bombers:

B-17: 32
B-10: 4

Transports: and others

B-18 "Bolo": 15 (even by 1940 it was realized the bomber variant of the DC-2 was inferior so they were all converted to transports)
O-52 "Owl": 11
Stearman 76: 42 (this was a basic flight training biplane)

So that is the total number of aircraft in the FEAF on 8 December 1941. Only 128 of them "fighters" even if the T-6/A-27 is counted.

And against that, Japan threw 288 front line fighters, in addition to 162 bombers.

I am not sure what you expect 128 mostly obsolete fighters could have done against a fighter force that was over twice as strong, with highly experienced pilots. And a bomber fleet over 5 times the size of that of the Americans.

Yes there were indeed around 400 aircraft, but that is not the same as saying "400 fighters". Next to the Warhawks, the largest number were trainers as they were still trying to get the Philippine Air Force up to the capability where they could even send them actual fighters. Hence, around 100 of the aircraft there were unarmed trainers.

Of course, I am ignoring the single bomber of the Philippine Air Force at the time. Literally a B-3, a bi-wing bomber that once again was used for flight training for the bomber pilots for when they actually got real bombers (eventually).

Yes, it may sound impressive when you say "over 400 aircraft", but in reality is was around 365. And as you can see from the breakdown of exactly what the operational aircraft were, only a small handful of those were even fighters.

Oh, and not all of them were "destroyed on the ground", not even close. The P-40s were used by the 17th Pursuit Squadron, and they literally had been flying a CAP and were in the process of refueling when the islands were first attacked. The attack destroyed over half of their fighters as the pilots were eating lunch and they were being serviced before being taken out again. The survivors were mostly the 22 that were still in their revenants on standby. On 12 December the decision was made by the War Department to pull all remaining operational aircraft to Australia.

So no, they were not all "destroyed on the ground, and in fact the Warhawks that were destroyed on the ground had literally just returned from a 6 hour patrol. And were in the process of being refueled and the pilots taking a break when the attack happened.

That is about as far from "inaction" as you can get.

The first Japanese attack on Clarke was escorted by only 34 Zero fighters, the second attack on Iba field was escorted by 51 Zeros. If the American and Philippino fighters had been airborne they could have caused the Japanese serious losses that the Japanese were ill equipped to replace in 1941. The allied forces had radar warning sixty five minutes before the Japanese attacks. If Doug had allowed Bereton to launch his B-17s when he wanted to the American bombers would have caught the Japanese 11th Air Fleet grounded by fog with full fuel tanks and bombloads. Can you spell D I S A S T E R?

 

[Mushroom]

He let his Air Force get caught on the ground and destroyed eight full hours after the Pearl Harbor attack.

Which I already covered. And they were not "just sitting on the ground".

His fighters were involved in almost constant reconnaissance operations, and had just returned from a 6 hour patrol. The aircraft were having maintenance done and the pilots resting before starting another patrol when the attack came.

The bombers were still being prepared for the mission to bomb Formosa.

 

[AZrailwhale]

Which I already covered. And they were not "just sitting on the ground".

His fighters were involved in almost constant reconnaissance operations, and had just returned from a 6 hour patrol. The aircraft were having maintenance done and the pilots resting before starting another patrol when the attack came.

The bombers were still being prepared for the mission to bomb Formosa.

Yeah he surged everything, so all his fighters were out of fuel at the same time. Any commander with any sense at all would have had a few fighters out on BARCAP towards Formosa instead of his entire force. That's totally disregarding the radar that gave US command a sixty-five-minute warning of the actual attacks. What he did was like RAF fighter command launching all of its aircraft at the first raid warning of the BOB and having nothing to oppose later attacks. In reality Fighter Command allocated its squadrons sparingly making sure to keep a reserve.

The bombers were being prepared because Mac refused Brereton permission for a pre-emptive strike after the Pearl Harbor attack. Mac didn't want to take offensive action to antagonize the Japanese because Manual Quezon didn't want to offend the Japanese in the faint hope they would leave the Philippines alone.