Socialism equals less freedom. How?

[Sweet Willy]

This was from another poster on this forum, from another thread.

A short story in applied socialism; a big learning experience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

someone posted this interesting story at my blog. How true! Read and weep libs!

A short story in applied socialism; a big learning experience.

Last semester Texas Tech had an economics professor who said he had never failed a single student before, but had, on one occasion, failed an entire class. That class had insisted socialism could be successful wherein no one would be poor and no one would be rich, socialism was the great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism.

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade; no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the mid-term test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little. The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When finals rolled around the average was an F.

The scores NEVER increased and the bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and NO ONE would study for anyone else. To the students’ great surprise, ALL failed and the professor told them that socialism ultimately ALWAYS fails. It is the natural human condition for those who work harder to be the ones expecting to receive the greater reward, but when a socialist government takes that reward away; NO ONE will endeavor to succeed.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...lied-socialism-a-big-learning-experience.html

Let's look at another experiment.

Let's say that a professor has 20 students. He gives 20 grades per semester. There are 400 possible A grades to be given. Starting from all things being equal, the top 5 students get an A on the first two test. In true capitalist form, these 5 students are allowed to invest their A grades towards the remaining 390 A's left. Now, they don't have to work as hard as anyone else. They only have to get a B on the next test and apply their interest from their investment to make it an A. Now they have 3 A's each......more to invest. On the next test, they only have to study hard enough to get a C and the interest from their 3 A investment covers the rest. And so on and so on until the former A students don't have to do anything at all but show up and collect the remaining A grades. Meanwhile, the B students who have worked really hard the whole time get robbed of the possible A grades for them not because the A students worked harder or studied more but because the system was set up to reward A students with more A's, regardless of how hard they studied.

So, when you meet some incredible asshole and wonder "how did this guy get so wealthy?" there is your answer. He got his hands on a couple of A's and we gave him an entitlement to more without having to work for them.

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

 

[Meister]

This was from another poster on this forum, from another thread.

A short story in applied socialism; a big learning experience.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

someone posted this interesting story at my blog. How true! Read and weep libs!

A short story in applied socialism; a big learning experience.

Last semester Texas Tech had an economics professor who said he had never failed a single student before, but had, on one occasion, failed an entire class. That class had insisted socialism could be successful wherein no one would be poor and no one would be rich, socialism was the great equalizer. The professor then said ok, we will have an experiment in this class on socialism.

All grades would be averaged and everyone would receive the same grade; no one would fail and no one would receive an A. After the first test the grades were averaged and everyone got a B. The students who studied hard were upset and the students who studied little were happy. But, as the mid-term test rolled around, the students who studied little had studied even less and the ones who studied hard decided they wanted a free ride too; so they studied little. The second Test average was a D! No one was happy. When finals rolled around the average was an F.

The scores NEVER increased and the bickering, blame, name calling all resulted in hard feelings and NO ONE would study for anyone else. To the students’ great surprise, ALL failed and the professor told them that socialism ultimately ALWAYS fails. It is the natural human condition for those who work harder to be the ones expecting to receive the greater reward, but when a socialist government takes that reward away; NO ONE will endeavor to succeed.
http://www.usmessageboard.com/polit...lied-socialism-a-big-learning-experience.html

Let's look at another experiment.

Let's say that a professor has 20 students. He gives 20 grades per semester. There are 400 possible A grades to be given. Starting from all things being equal, the top 5 students get an A on the first two test. In true capitalist form, these 5 students are allowed to invest their A grades towards the remaining 390 A's left. Now, they don't have to work as hard as anyone else. They only have to get a B on the next test and apply their interest from their investment to make it an A. Now they have 3 A's each......more to invest. On the next test, they only have to study hard enough to get a C and the interest from their 3 A investment covers the rest. And so on and so on until the former A students don't have to do anything at all but show up and collect the remaining A grades. Meanwhile, the B students who have worked really hard the whole time get robbed of the possible A grades for them not because the A students worked harder or studied more but because the system was set up to reward A students with more A's, regardless of how hard they studied.

So, when you meet some incredible asshole and wonder "how did this guy get so wealthy?" there is your answer. He got his hands on a couple of A's and we gave him an entitlement to more without having to work for them.

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

Jeez us...I will second that KK. Where did that one come from Willy?

 

[garyd]

Good job willy parrot nonsense like you actually know something. The average guy on this country whgo makes his first million does it buy working 16 hour days six or seven days a week 52 weeks a year for about 5 years. If Obama gets his way it will be more like seven to ten if it is still possible at all.

 

[Meister]

Let's look at another experiment.

Let's say that a professor has 20 students. He gives 20 grades per semester. There are 400 possible A grades to be given. Starting from all things being equal, the top 5 students get an A on the first two test. In true capitalist form, these 5 students are allowed to invest their A grades towards the remaining 390 A's left. Now, they don't have to work as hard as anyone else. They only have to get a B on the next test and apply their interest from their investment to make it an A. Now they have 3 A's each......more to invest. On the next test, they only have to study hard enough to get a C and the interest from their 3 A investment covers the rest. And so on and so on until the former A students don't have to do anything at all but show up and collect the remaining A grades. Meanwhile, the B students who have worked really hard the whole time get robbed of the possible A grades for them not because the A students worked harder or studied more but because the system was set up to reward A students with more A's, regardless of how hard they studied.

So, when you meet some incredible asshole and wonder "how did this guy get so wealthy?" there is your answer. He got his hands on a couple of A's and we gave him an entitlement to more without having to work for them.

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Supplying money so that you can have a paycheck. He is also, going out on a limb that that store is profitable. If it is his investment is rewarded. If it's not, you still got your paycheck from him, and he loses his investment. see how the risks of reward work Willy?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Let's look at another experiment.

Let's say that a professor has 20 students. He gives 20 grades per semester. There are 400 possible A grades to be given. Starting from all things being equal, the top 5 students get an A on the first two test. In true capitalist form, these 5 students are allowed to invest their A grades towards the remaining 390 A's left. Now, they don't have to work as hard as anyone else. They only have to get a B on the next test and apply their interest from their investment to make it an A. Now they have 3 A's each......more to invest. On the next test, they only have to study hard enough to get a C and the interest from their 3 A investment covers the rest. And so on and so on until the former A students don't have to do anything at all but show up and collect the remaining A grades. Meanwhile, the B students who have worked really hard the whole time get robbed of the possible A grades for them not because the A students worked harder or studied more but because the system was set up to reward A students with more A's, regardless of how hard they studied.

So, when you meet some incredible asshole and wonder "how did this guy get so wealthy?" there is your answer. He got his hands on a couple of A's and we gave him an entitlement to more without having to work for them.

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

Jeez us...I will second that KK. Where did that one come from Willy?

The analogy was meant to equate grades with money. It would maybe have worked better if we used actual number grades instead of letters. The students making a 100 grade could loan out some of those points, at interest, to other students. So a kid that wanted a 95 but only scored 82 could borrow 13 points. But he'd have to score high enough at some point to repay the 13 points plus interest.

And we could allow the kids scoring 100 to loan out 900 points, like we do banks with money. Let him loan more points than he actually has and depend on the other students to score well enough to repay him, plus interest on points he never had to begin with. And if the other kids fail and can't repay him, the professor will bail him out and give him an A anyway.

 

[Intense]

How can you have more 'freedom' when a government can force you to do things with your own money you don't agree with?

The problem many people have with socialism is it never knows when to stop, while everyone agrees it would be good to help old and poor people, socialism tends to blur the lines of who needs help and where the money is to come from.

The main problem is, people don't have free will, they HAVE to go along or be arrested.

That is why the question was treated with derision, it should have been obvious.

But isn't that true with any form of government...go along or be arrested?

The only way to have complete free-will is to abandon society. Any association with others requires compromise and any compromise is a loss of freedom. The question is whether what you gain thru compromise increases or decreases your quality of life. And again, when you look at developed socialized regions you find quality of life that is equal to or better than ours and when you look at our life expectancies we are closer to the third world.

If freedom is not our total quality of life then what is it and why is it of any value?

Organized government always implies a social contract, giving up some rights in return for the security provided by the State. There's no question about that. The question is what rights are the people willing to give up and in what quantity. IMO, true socialism is bad for the US because of the value we place on the individual in general and in individual property rights specifically. We the People are not willing to cede that much to the State, pure and simple. That doesn't mean it can't work elsewhere where people attach different values to those rights. Government has to be tailored to the people who give it legitimacy.

I think more that We need to be Tailored to Conscience, and Tailor Government from there. Conscience should not be sacrificed to convenience.

 

[Sweet Willy]

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Supplying money so that you can have a paycheck. He is also, going out on a limb that that store is profitable. If it is his investment is rewarded. If it's not, you still got your paycheck from him, and he loses his investment. see how the risks of reward work Willy?

Well yes, I see how it works.

let's just be honest here and get off the premise that we reward HARD WORK the most. Completely untrue.

 

[garyd]

If he wants ot keep his money he is spending a lot of time and effort trying to ascertain where he will get the most bang for his buck. The investment game is a hell of a lot more complicated if you are going to make any real money at it than just throwing darts at a dart board and hoping you get lucky.

 

[Meister]

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

Jeez us...I will second that KK. Where did that one come from Willy?

The analogy was meant to equate grades with money. It would maybe have worked better if we used actual number grades instead of letters. The students making a 100 grade could loan out some of those points, at interest, to other students. So a kid that wanted a 95 but only scored 82 could borrow 13 points. But he'd have to score high enough at some point to repay the 13 points plus interest.

And we could allow the kids scoring 100 to loan out 900 points, like we do banks with money. Let him loan more points than he actually has and depend on the other students to score well enough to repay him, plus interest on points he never had to begin with. And if the other kids fail and can't repay him, the professor will bail him out and give him an A anyway.

Eh...you lost me on this one, Willy Those that work hard are rewarded...as it should be. Those that don't work as hard are not rewarded as much as those that do. Those that don't work at all, aren't and should not be rewarded. This is what makes our country the greatest in the world Willy

 

[Sweet Willy]

Good job willy parrot nonsense like you actually know something. The average guy on this country whgo makes his first million does it buy working 16 hour days six or seven days a week 52 weeks a year for about 5 years. If Obama gets his way it will be more like seven to ten if it is still possible at all.

And the average roofer with 3 kids works the same. All his life. And dies in the hole. To the millionaire that worked 5 years.

 

[Meister]

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Supplying money so that you can have a paycheck. He is also, going out on a limb that that store is profitable. If it is his investment is rewarded. If it's not, you still got your paycheck from him, and he loses his investment. see how the risks of reward work Willy?

Well yes, I see how it works.

let's just be honest here and get off the premise that we reward HARD WORK the most. Completely untrue.

Your stating that those that do hard manuel work should be the ones rewarded, while those that had enough brains to save, and invest his money wisely should not be rewarded as much as the brawn? I think it's harder to save and invest wisely, than to lay asphalt, Willy. But, that just might be me....

 

[Sweet Willy]

Jeez us...I will second that KK. Where did that one come from Willy?

The analogy was meant to equate grades with money. It would maybe have worked better if we used actual number grades instead of letters. The students making a 100 grade could loan out some of those points, at interest, to other students. So a kid that wanted a 95 but only scored 82 could borrow 13 points. But he'd have to score high enough at some point to repay the 13 points plus interest.

And we could allow the kids scoring 100 to loan out 900 points, like we do banks with money. Let him loan more points than he actually has and depend on the other students to score well enough to repay him, plus interest on points he never had to begin with. And if the other kids fail and can't repay him, the professor will bail him out and give him an A anyway.

Eh...you lost me on this one, Willy Those that work hard are rewarded...as it should be. Those that don't work as hard are not rewarded as much as those that do. Those that don't work at all, aren't and should not be rewarded. This is what makes our country the greatest in the world Willy

That isn't true and you know it. Pay scale is NOT reflected by how hard a person works. You can haul shingles up a ladder all day, everyday, performing one of the most important jobs there is.....keeping people out of the rain.....and never earn what a banker sitting on his ass in a fat leather chair earns.

 

[Meister]

Good job willy parrot nonsense like you actually know something. The average guy on this country whgo makes his first million does it buy working 16 hour days six or seven days a week 52 weeks a year for about 5 years. If Obama gets his way it will be more like seven to ten if it is still possible at all.

And the average roofer with 3 kids works the same. All his life. And dies in the hole. To the millionaire that worked 5 years.

Gotta ask yourself, How did the millionaire make that much money in 5 years?
Did the roofer have too many kids? Was the roofer a carouser and spent all his extra money? Maybe the roofer shouldn't have bought that 750,000 house on his income, and drive that Hummer. Come on Willy, you just can't make up a scenario to prove your point.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Supplying money so that you can have a paycheck. He is also, going out on a limb that that store is profitable. If it is his investment is rewarded. If it's not, you still got your paycheck from him, and he loses his investment. see how the risks of reward work Willy?

Well yes, I see how it works.

let's just be honest here and get off the premise that we reward HARD WORK the most. Completely untrue.

Your stating that those that do hard manuel work should be the ones rewarded, while those that had enough brains to save, and invest his money wisely should not be rewarded as much as the brawn? I think it's harder to save and invest wisely, than to lay asphalt, Willy. But, that just might be me....

I'm sure there is an asphalt job available in your area. Let us know how that works out for you.

 

[Intense]

In a nut shell the more money the government strips from any one individual the less economic freedom that individual has and the larger the bureaucracy will become. At some point the Welfare state will invariably over reach and you will get an economic collapse. And then everyone will have the freedom to starve.

I think that you missed the exit. Who's manning the printing presses?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Good job willy parrot nonsense like you actually know something. The average guy on this country whgo makes his first million does it buy working 16 hour days six or seven days a week 52 weeks a year for about 5 years. If Obama gets his way it will be more like seven to ten if it is still possible at all.

And the average roofer with 3 kids works the same. All his life. And dies in the hole. To the millionaire that worked 5 years.

Gotta ask yourself, How did the millionaire make that much money in 5 years?
Did the roofer have too many kids? Was the roofer a carouser and spent all his extra money? Maybe the roofer shouldn't have bought that 750,000 house on his income, and drive that Hummer. Come on Willy, you just can't make up a scenario to prove your point.

Which is exactly why the socialist experiment that I responded to is bunk. It doesn't prove the point. Not all human endeavor is measured by a singular reward. Grades or money being set as the only motivation for human endeavor is a false analogy. There are those that will only work towards money or grades but they are not the most valuable people around.

 

[Meister]

The analogy was meant to equate grades with money. It would maybe have worked better if we used actual number grades instead of letters. The students making a 100 grade could loan out some of those points, at interest, to other students. So a kid that wanted a 95 but only scored 82 could borrow 13 points. But he'd have to score high enough at some point to repay the 13 points plus interest.

And we could allow the kids scoring 100 to loan out 900 points, like we do banks with money. Let him loan more points than he actually has and depend on the other students to score well enough to repay him, plus interest on points he never had to begin with. And if the other kids fail and can't repay him, the professor will bail him out and give him an A anyway.

Eh...you lost me on this one, Willy Those that work hard are rewarded...as it should be. Those that don't work as hard are not rewarded as much as those that do. Those that don't work at all, aren't and should not be rewarded. This is what makes our country the greatest in the world Willy

That isn't true and you know it. Pay scale is NOT reflected by how hard a person works. You can haul shingles up a ladder all day, everyday, performing one of the most important jobs there is.....keeping people out of the rain.....and never earn what a banker sitting on his ass in a fat leather chair earns.

No....that is true, and this is why you can't understand what I'm saying. I worked hard and did the right investing to where I retired at 57, Willy. I could have easily worked hard and spent my money, and would have to keep working. Your taking a few rich people and stating they don't work hard, where in the real world it's people like me that succeed.

By the way the banker has a hell of a lot of responsiblity to the board for making himself a success. You act like he just sits there doing nothing....bullshit.

 

[garyd]

Doesn't matter. Print enough money and a sheet of toilet paper will be worth more than the paper in your hip pocket.

 

[Meister]

And the average roofer with 3 kids works the same. All his life. And dies in the hole. To the millionaire that worked 5 years.

Gotta ask yourself, How did the millionaire make that much money in 5 years?
Did the roofer have too many kids? Was the roofer a carouser and spent all his extra money? Maybe the roofer shouldn't have bought that 750,000 house on his income, and drive that Hummer. Come on Willy, you just can't make up a scenario to prove your point.

Which is exactly why the socialist experiment that I responded to is bunk. It doesn't prove the point. Not all human endeavor is measured by a singular reward. Grades or money being set as the only motivation for human endeavor is a false analogy. There are those that will only work towards money or grades but they are not the most valuable people around.

What is a greater motivator than money Willy. Would you work for minimum wage, or do you go for the 20 dollar an hour job? You don't need to answer that one Willy, I already know.

 

[Meister]

Well yes, I see how it works.

let's just be honest here and get off the premise that we reward HARD WORK the most. Completely untrue.

Your stating that those that do hard manuel work should be the ones rewarded, while those that had enough brains to save, and invest his money wisely should not be rewarded as much as the brawn? I think it's harder to save and invest wisely, than to lay asphalt, Willy. But, that just might be me....

I'm sure there is an asphalt job available in your area. Let us know how that works out for you.

I'm being civil to you Willy, You really want to go down this road with me on the insults?