Socialism equals less freedom. How?

[Sweet Willy]

Eh...you lost me on this one, Willy Those that work hard are rewarded...as it should be. Those that don't work as hard are not rewarded as much as those that do. Those that don't work at all, aren't and should not be rewarded. This is what makes our country the greatest in the world Willy

That isn't true and you know it. Pay scale is NOT reflected by how hard a person works. You can haul shingles up a ladder all day, everyday, performing one of the most important jobs there is.....keeping people out of the rain.....and never earn what a banker sitting on his ass in a fat leather chair earns.

No....that is true, and this is why you can't understand what I'm saying. I worked hard and did the right investing to where I retired at 57, Willy. I could have easily worked hard and spent my money, and would have to keep working. Your taking a few rich people and stating they don't work hard, where in the real world it's people like me that succeed.

By the way the banker has a hell of a lot of responsiblity to the board for making himself a success. You act like he just sits there doing nothing....bullshit.

So you are living by the sweat of anothers brow. You understand that the money you collect on investments doesn't appear from the air? Someone worked for that. Not you, but someone.

 

[garyd]

Funny most of the roofers I've know are subcontractors which is to say small businessmen in their own right. And most of them do quite well. Back when I was working in the homebuilding business the roofers got 5 dollars a square for composition and $7.50 for a shake roof. The good ones were making about 200 dollars a day either way.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Your stating that those that do hard manuel work should be the ones rewarded, while those that had enough brains to save, and invest his money wisely should not be rewarded as much as the brawn? I think it's harder to save and invest wisely, than to lay asphalt, Willy. But, that just might be me....

I'm sure there is an asphalt job available in your area. Let us know how that works out for you.

I'm being civil to you Willy, You really want to go down this road with me on the insults?

An insult? I am suggesting you try a job where you have to work hard. That's all.

 

[goldcatt]

But isn't that true with any form of government...go along or be arrested?

The only way to have complete free-will is to abandon society. Any association with others requires compromise and any compromise is a loss of freedom. The question is whether what you gain thru compromise increases or decreases your quality of life. And again, when you look at developed socialized regions you find quality of life that is equal to or better than ours and when you look at our life expectancies we are closer to the third world.

If freedom is not our total quality of life then what is it and why is it of any value?

Organized government always implies a social contract, giving up some rights in return for the security provided by the State. There's no question about that. The question is what rights are the people willing to give up and in what quantity. IMO, true socialism is bad for the US because of the value we place on the individual in general and in individual property rights specifically. We the People are not willing to cede that much to the State, pure and simple. That doesn't mean it can't work elsewhere where people attach different values to those rights. Government has to be tailored to the people who give it legitimacy.

I think more that We need to be Tailored to Conscience, and Tailor Government from there. Conscience should not be sacrificed to convenience.

So you don't believe different peoples should have the right to determine their own conscience, their own values and their own government?

 

[Sweet Willy]

Gotta ask yourself, How did the millionaire make that much money in 5 years?
Did the roofer have too many kids? Was the roofer a carouser and spent all his extra money? Maybe the roofer shouldn't have bought that 750,000 house on his income, and drive that Hummer. Come on Willy, you just can't make up a scenario to prove your point.

Which is exactly why the socialist experiment that I responded to is bunk. It doesn't prove the point. Not all human endeavor is measured by a singular reward. Grades or money being set as the only motivation for human endeavor is a false analogy. There are those that will only work towards money or grades but they are not the most valuable people around.

What is a greater motivator than money Willy. Would you work for minimum wage, or do you go for the 20 dollar an hour job? You don't need to answer that one Willy, I already know.

And there is the fundamental divide.

There are greater motivators than money.

 

[Intense]

Sweet Willy: I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Willy, He is paying You by agreement, to do a job. You get paid regardless of what happens to that business. He is taking a Risk, which may or may not pay off. He is not inhibiting you. Income is hard to generate out of thin air. Join the club. Generating Income out of thin air can be a very fragile process, that sometimes needs to be nurtured, not strong armed.

 

[garyd]

Pleasaure for one. but it will always leave you poor in the end.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Funny most of the roofers I've know are subcontractors which is to say small businessmen in their own right. And most of them do quite well. Back when I was working in the homebuilding business the roofers got 5 dollars a square for composition and $7.50 for a shake roof. The good ones were making about 200 dollars a day either way.

What is that? $60,000 a year? Minus overhead maybe $40K?

Tell us again how hard work = millions.

 

[JakeStarkey]

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Supplying money so that you can have a paycheck. He is also, going out on a limb that that store is profitable. If it is his investment is rewarded. If it's not, you still got your paycheck from him, and he loses his investment. see how the risks of reward work Willy?

Well yes, I see how it works.

let's just be honest here and get off the premise that we reward HARD WORK the most. Completely untrue.

You are so wrong. Look at all the hard work that Ted Kennedy did. Corporatists (as opposed to capitalists) are simple bunco artists. Screwem. They will screw the working man or women over every time. Yeah, Mr. and Mrs. Bunco can pay their fair share on the health tab.

 

[Meister]

I'm sure there is an asphalt job available in your area. Let us know how that works out for you.

I'm being civil to you Willy, You really want to go down this road with me on the insults?

An insult? I am suggesting you try a job where you have to work hard. That's all.

I did work hard...and I saved. so I didn't have to work hard anymore. That's what the American dream is all about. Not working hard and having people like you take it. Willy...your a stupid fuck that will be working until the day you die because of it.
I'm done trying to explain it to your sorry ass.
The money I invested helped companys to hire employees so they could get a paycheck. So go fuck yourself.

You are so dense that you don't understand economics, or the job market. I bet you do have a minimum wage job.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Sweet Willy: I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Willy, He is paying You by agreement, to do a job. You get paid regardless of what happens to that business. He is taking a Risk, which may or may not pay off. He is not inhibiting you. Income is hard to generate out of thin air. Join the club. Generating Income out of thin air can be a very fragile process, that sometimes needs to be nurtured, not strong armed.

I'm not arguing the agreement, just the facts of how it is. Having the money to lose is an advantage. Win or lose, he will not WORK. That's the point. He didn't work for the money he is investing in the venture. It came from another venture. I'm sure he actually worked at some point in his life, long ago, but now he doesn't.

THose that work the hardest are not always rewarded the most. That is a fallacy.

 

[garyd]

Willy if you keep biting the hand that feeds you eventually he will quit feeding you and you will as you so richly deserve effing starve.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I'm being civil to you Willy, You really want to go down this road with me on the insults?

An insult? I am suggesting you try a job where you have to work hard. That's all.

I did work hard...and I saved. so I didn't have to work hard anymore. That's what the American dream is all about. Not working hard and having people like you take it. Willy...your a stupid fuck that will be working until the day you die because of it.
I'm done trying to explain it to your sorry ass.
The money I invested helped companys to hire employees so they could get a paycheck. So go fuck yourself.

You are so dense that you don't understand economics, or the job market. I bet you do have a minimum wage job.

Yeah, the money you invest pays you a portion of the fruit of other people's labor. Simply because you were in a position to bargain against people's need to eat.

 

[garyd]

And yet if doesn't you don't eat. The man is gambling on your ability to do the job he contracted with you to do. He almost certainly didn't pick your name out of the phone book.

 

[Intense]

Sweet Willy: I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Willy, He is paying You by agreement, to do a job. You get paid regardless of what happens to that business. He is taking a Risk, which may or may not pay off. He is not inhibiting you. Income is hard to generate out of thin air. Join the club. Generating Income out of thin air can be a very fragile process, that sometimes needs to be nurtured, not strong armed.

I'm not arguing the agreement, just the facts of how it is. Having the money to lose is an advantage. Win or lose, he will not WORK. That's the point. He didn't work for the money he is investing in the venture. It came from another venture. I'm sure he actually worked at some point in his life, long ago, but now he doesn't.

THose that work the hardest are not always rewarded the most. That is a fallacy.

When you are out there selling a product Willie, there is a term, "What The Market Will Bear". The Market sets the price Willie. Yes it gets corrupted by Government and Corporate Interest. Subsidies corrupt, Monopolies corrupt, Illegal Immigrant Labor corrupts the Value of Your Skills and mine. How do You compete with the Black Market, when you pay taxes and they don't. Bureaucrats have amplified the value of what they do, at our expense.

 

[Intense]

An insult? I am suggesting you try a job where you have to work hard. That's all.

I did work hard...and I saved. so I didn't have to work hard anymore. That's what the American dream is all about. Not working hard and having people like you take it. Willy...your a stupid fuck that will be working until the day you die because of it.
I'm done trying to explain it to your sorry ass.
The money I invested helped companys to hire employees so they could get a paycheck. So go fuck yourself.

You are so dense that you don't understand economics, or the job market. I bet you do have a minimum wage job.

Yeah, the money you invest pays you a portion of the fruit of other people's labor. Simply because you were in a position to bargain against people's need to eat.

Willy, When you have a big job that you have to put up for before you get paid, to whom do you turn for credit?

Your anger is in part misplaced Willie.

 

[Sweet Willy]

Willy if you keep biting the hand that feeds you eventually he will quit feeding you and you will as you so richly deserve effing starve.

The hand that feeds me? That's rich.

My hands will feed him. If not mine, the hands of another. And he will continue to use that threat of starvation as a means to take a portion of other peoples labor.

You getting the idea of power now? You getting the idea that it's a two way street? I'll stop whining about the powerful wealthy taking part of the fruits of my labor when you stop whining about my powerful government taking part of the fruits of your investment. And we won't even take it all. We'll just take part of what you leveraged out of us under threat of starvation.

 

[Sweet Willy]

And yet if doesn't you don't eat. The man is gambling on your ability to do the job he contracted with you to do. He almost certainly didn't pick your name out of the phone book.

No, he picked me because he knows I won't steal from him even though I know he will steal every dime he can from me.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I did work hard...and I saved. so I didn't have to work hard anymore. That's what the American dream is all about. Not working hard and having people like you take it. Willy...your a stupid fuck that will be working until the day you die because of it.
I'm done trying to explain it to your sorry ass.
The money I invested helped companys to hire employees so they could get a paycheck. So go fuck yourself.

You are so dense that you don't understand economics, or the job market. I bet you do have a minimum wage job.

Yeah, the money you invest pays you a portion of the fruit of other people's labor. Simply because you were in a position to bargain against people's need to eat.

Willy, When you have a big job that you have to put up for before you get paid, to whom do you turn for credit?

Your anger is in part misplaced Willie.

Don't use credit. The issuance of cedit and collection of interest has been recognized as a scourge, a crime, the lowest form of business in human history.

 

[Intense]

I would suggest Willy that You have an issue with "Cause and Effect", You are taking out these frustrations on others. Private Money did not devalue your labor, Government did. Your mass competitors keep your wages down. Being bitter to your clients, or anyone that does better than you or I, just complicates it.