Socialism equals less freedom. How?

[Sweet Willy]

I would suggest Willy that You have an issue with "Cause and Effect", You are taking out these frustrations on others. Private Money did not devalue your labor, Government did. Your mass competitors keep your wages down. Being bitter to your clients, or anyone that does better than you or I, just complicates it.

It is a systemic problem, not a personal one. No problem with someone having more or better, just HOW that happened. Did they steal it? Are you Ok with people that have more or better if you know they stole it?

 

[Intense]

Yeah, the money you invest pays you a portion of the fruit of other people's labor. Simply because you were in a position to bargain against people's need to eat.

Willy, When you have a big job that you have to put up for before you get paid, to whom do you turn for credit?

Your anger is in part misplaced Willie.

Don't use credit. The issuance of cedit and collection of interest has been recognized as a scourge, a crime, the lowest form of business in human history.

I use CC and pay them off every month, for convenience. They are there as a contingency back up. Thanks for the concern though. You know Gov't recently tried to enact interest from the date of purchase, after they took control over some banks. Any account that incorporates that policy I will close Instantly. That brings to mind the Federal Governments attempts to automatically withdraw from our bank accounts, on this health care bill. Do you realize the implications of that. Returned Checks, Fines, Fee's Penalties. Bad Medicine Willie. They are incompetent and know not what they do.

You just brought something to mind. .... Dave Ramsey, You have got to check out his show, if you haven't yet. He will make a difference in your life.

 

[Intense]

I would suggest Willy that You have an issue with "Cause and Effect", You are taking out these frustrations on others. Private Money did not devalue your labor, Government did. Your mass competitors keep your wages down. Being bitter to your clients, or anyone that does better than you or I, just complicates it.

It is a systemic problem, not a personal one. No problem with someone having more or better, just HOW that happened. Did they steal it? Are you Ok with people that have more or better if you know they stole it?

Willie, I am not okay with stealing regardless of how poor or rich they are. So is True Justice.

 

[Xenophon]

How can you have more 'freedom' when a government can force you to do things with your own money you don't agree with?

The problem many people have with socialism is it never knows when to stop, while everyone agrees it would be good to help old and poor people, socialism tends to blur the lines of who needs help and where the money is to come from.

The main problem is, people don't have free will, they HAVE to go along or be arrested.

That is why the question was treated with derision, it should have been obvious.

But isn't that true with any form of government...go along or be arrested?

The only way to have complete free-will is to abandon society. Any association with others requires compromise and any compromise is a loss of freedom. The question is whether what you gain thru compromise increases or decreases your quality of life. And again, when you look at developed socialized regions you find quality of life that is equal to or better than ours and when you look at our life expectancies we are closer to the third world.

If freedom is not our total quality of life then what is it and why is it of any value?

The system is supposed to have checks and balences, socialism knows no boundries and redraws the lines as it sees fit.

The easiet way to explain it is this:

It seems fine to take a few billion off of Bill gates, he surely won't miss it.

Well, that is fine, but suppose that isn't enough to cover some new entitlement, say healthcare. Since socialism gives the government carte blanche 'for the greater good' (as THE GOVERNMENT defines it) so they annouce they will be taking more money from 'millionaires.' (this is the Obama-Pelosi mantra)

Well, they still don't have enough money, so they lower the bar and then say 'well, anyone making 250,000 will be the target.' The money still isn't enough, and the bar goes down to 100,000, then 50,000 and eventually it becomes everyone over the poverty level (Which is where the European version is).

Now let's say you wanted to buy a nice plasma TV, or a new air conditioner, or an xbox 360 for your kids, because you allowed the government to take whenever it sees fit, even though on paper you may make enough for these things, you still can't buy them as you lack ready cash.

As the bar sinks it becomes harder to buy needed things, new clothing, food and pay for power and gas, but you have no way to stop this, because you told the government that they set the standards, you've handed them your freedom and allowed them to now run all aspects of your life.

Let's say the government is not totally corrupt (a huge strech, but let's do it anyway) and they want you to be happy and have your xbox. You no longer make enough to afford it, if you were in a postion of power or greater earnings you could over pay for one, but you are not, so the government says 'we will make cheap Xboxs available to all, but there will be a waiting list.' Now we are in the zone of Soviet style communism.

Since you have allowed it to go this far, you decide 'well, i want a better job that pays more' but you can't get this, because the government has set quotas you must meet for production, and no better job is available. They would be willing to put you on a 'waiting list' for a better job, but since you have no money or power, they can't say when you will ever get that job.

What ends up happening is you work just enough to meet the quota, since their are no advancements and no bonus money, there is zero incentive to do better. (This is essentially the eastern european economies under communism) Since nobody is working hard, the government is forced to ration good and services since there is no longer incentive to have this done better, so you end up waiting in line three hours for a roll of toilet paper, hoping they don't 'run out' before your turn comes.

All of this is the erosion of your free will, since socialism can only provide if someone else has a vibrant market economy to trade with, that is the main reasons goods and services steadily decine.

United States has been the center of the free market economy for a long time, if you change this it will not be for the betterment of all, most people that tell you 'they know better' do not.

So tell the socialists you aern't 5 years old and don't need their mommy state.

 

[Sweet Willy]

I would suggest Willy that You have an issue with "Cause and Effect", You are taking out these frustrations on others. Private Money did not devalue your labor, Government did. Your mass competitors keep your wages down. Being bitter to your clients, or anyone that does better than you or I, just complicates it.

It is a systemic problem, not a personal one. No problem with someone having more or better, just HOW that happened. Did they steal it? Are you Ok with people that have more or better if you know they stole it?

Willie, I am not okay with stealing regardless of how poor or rich they are. So is True Justice.

And how do you define stealing? Do you recognize it on your own or do you go by what the dreaded government tells you is stealing?

 

[Diuretic]

True socialism infringes on the individual's right to private property, which is a right we in the US generally value (see the 5th Amendment).

But we are talking about socialism in Canada, England and Europe. All have the same access to private property as we do plus have greater personal savings and discretionary income to buy it. If 'property' is your argument then it is one you loose...

Yet ... all of those countries are behind in every advance, they are even behind the US.

Sorry KK, that's too much of a generalisation to be useful.

 

[Diuretic]

It created, in a historically short period of time, the most powerful and free nation on earth.

You saying there's something wrong with that?

I asked, "is the US still locked into an 18th Century mindset because of a written constitution?"

Is it?

That's debatable, although I wish it was more than it is.

Now I asked, "is there something wrong with that?"

If a nation has an 18th Century mindset then it's ignoring a couple of hundred years of human advancement, that's all.

 

[Diuretic]

Let's look at another experiment.

Let's say that a professor has 20 students. He gives 20 grades per semester. There are 400 possible A grades to be given. Starting from all things being equal, the top 5 students get an A on the first two test. In true capitalist form, these 5 students are allowed to invest their A grades towards the remaining 390 A's left. Now, they don't have to work as hard as anyone else. They only have to get a B on the next test and apply their interest from their investment to make it an A. Now they have 3 A's each......more to invest. On the next test, they only have to study hard enough to get a C and the interest from their 3 A investment covers the rest. And so on and so on until the former A students don't have to do anything at all but show up and collect the remaining A grades. Meanwhile, the B students who have worked really hard the whole time get robbed of the possible A grades for them not because the A students worked harder or studied more but because the system was set up to reward A students with more A's, regardless of how hard they studied.

So, when you meet some incredible asshole and wonder "how did this guy get so wealthy?" there is your answer. He got his hands on a couple of A's and we gave him an entitlement to more without having to work for them.

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Which neatly explains the point that capitalism has nothing to do with morality.

 

[Diuretic]

Good job willy parrot nonsense like you actually know something. The average guy on this country whgo makes his first million does it buy working 16 hour days six or seven days a week 52 weeks a year for about 5 years. If Obama gets his way it will be more like seven to ten if it is still possible at all.

Then he's an idiot, he should have been born to wealthy parents.

 

[Diuretic]

Good job willy parrot nonsense like you actually know something. The average guy on this country whgo makes his first million does it buy working 16 hour days six or seven days a week 52 weeks a year for about 5 years. If Obama gets his way it will be more like seven to ten if it is still possible at all.

And the average roofer with 3 kids works the same. All his life. And dies in the hole. To the millionaire that worked 5 years.

Gotta ask yourself, How did the millionaire make that much money in 5 years?
Did the roofer have too many kids? Was the roofer a carouser and spent all his extra money? Maybe the roofer shouldn't have bought that 750,000 house on his income, and drive that Hummer. Come on Willy, you just can't make up a scenario to prove your point.

Why not? You did!

 

[Xenophon]

I asked, "is the US still locked into an 18th Century mindset because of a written constitution?"

Is it?

That's debatable, although I wish it was more than it is.

Now I asked, "is there something wrong with that?"

If a nation has an 18th Century mindset then it's ignoring a couple of hundred years of human advancement, that's all.

the 19th, 20th and 21st century have not been enlightened times.

The first (19) featured small groups ruling the world for their own benifit.

The next (20) featured massive world wars, failed attamepts at implementing 19th century political ideals and the rise of totalitarian states as well as weapons which could end life on earth.

The final (21) has been as been one of extreme disharmony and polarization so far.

Hardly claims to trump the founders.

 

[Diuretic]

That's debatable, although I wish it was more than it is.

Now I asked, "is there something wrong with that?"

If a nation has an 18th Century mindset then it's ignoring a couple of hundred years of human advancement, that's all.

the 19th, 20th and 21st century have not been enlightened times.

The first (19) featured small groups ruling the world for their own benifit.

The next (20) featured massive world wars, failed attamepts at implementing 19th century political ideals and the rise of totalitarian states as well as weapons which could end life on earth.

The final (21) has been as been one of extreme disharmony and polarization so far.

Hardly claims to trump the founders.

X - I made the point about human advancement, not time serving.

 

[Xenophon]

Science has advanced, humans remain the same.

 

[Sweet Willy]

You really suck at analogies. I mean really suck at it.

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Which neatly explains the point that capitalism has nothing to do with morality.

Yes. That's the point. These self satisfied fuckers that collect money from interest and dividends have an awful lot of nerve to talk about hard work and the rewards. They well may have worked hard to get into that position but we even had a poster admit that he used his money to invest so he wouldn't have to work for his money anymore. Fucking amazing that kind of thing is admired by some. The ability to earn by not working. The American dream. No wonder we're fucked.

 

[Diuretic]

The critics of socialism distort it as part of their critique. That could be out of ignorance or malice, I don't know which, but it's pointless in the end.

The defenders of capitalism seem to be indulging in a sort of appeal to nature.

A bit of accuracy would go a long way.

 

[Diuretic]

Science has advanced, humans remain the same.

Heck we're still the same as we were thousands and thousands of years ago, so what? Science has advanced, so has every other human endeavour. Philosophy, politics, social theory, all have advanced since the 18th Century. There are forms of economy that were never envisaged back in the 18th Century. A country that's stuck in an 18th Century mindset in terms of those aspects of humanity is going to have to deal with many anomalies.

 

[Sweet Willy]

The critics of socialism distort it as part of their critique. That could be out of ignorance or malice, I don't know which, but it's pointless in the end.

The defenders of capitalism seem to be indulging in a sort of appeal to nature.

A bit of accuracy would go a long way.

THe appeal to nature is always amusing to me. They like to say that the smartest and hardest workers are naturally entitles to more.

I'm guessing that if we allowed nature to actually rule, there would a whole different set of people in charge and bunch of dead weaklings with empty wallets.

 

[Meister]

And the average roofer with 3 kids works the same. All his life. And dies in the hole. To the millionaire that worked 5 years.

Gotta ask yourself, How did the millionaire make that much money in 5 years?
Did the roofer have too many kids? Was the roofer a carouser and spent all his extra money? Maybe the roofer shouldn't have bought that 750,000 house on his income, and drive that Hummer. Come on Willy, you just can't make up a scenario to prove your point.

Why not? You did!

Di....I was mocking him, and his anology.

 

[Meister]

It wasn't a very good one, I guess.

But the idea gets across. The idea that the hardest workers or the smartest people are rewarded in our system is far from the truth. We allow people with the money (grades) to use that money to make more. Has nothing to do with hard work. The entire analogy about hard work being rewarded is way off base. If it were true, asphalt pavers would be among the wealthiest people around. But they aren't. If they were, then you might convince me that we shouldn't tax the hell out of that asphalt worker because he worked for his money. But the fact is, the wealthy have the inside track to EASY MONEY in our system. They aren't paving highways or shoveling shit to get it. They aren't working harder. The myth that the hardest workers get the most reward is exactly that: a myth.

I am heading out next week to get a new store front off the ground for a guy. A gold buying operation. He is a very wealthy man. He is not working AT ALL. He is simply supplying money, my partner and I will do all of the actual work, open the store, buy the gold and then turn it all over to him. The greatest reward will go not to the people who work the hardest but to the person with the most money.

Which neatly explains the point that capitalism has nothing to do with morality.

Yes. That's the point. These self satisfied fuckers that collect money from interest and dividends have an awful lot of nerve to talk about hard work and the rewards. They well may have worked hard to get into that position but we even had a poster admit that he used his money to invest so he wouldn't have to work for his money anymore. Fucking amazing that kind of thing is admired by some. The ability to earn by not working. The American dream. No wonder we're fucked.

Spoken like a true communist.

 

[Diuretic]

Which neatly explains the point that capitalism has nothing to do with morality.

Yes. That's the point. These self satisfied fuckers that collect money from interest and dividends have an awful lot of nerve to talk about hard work and the rewards. They well may have worked hard to get into that position but we even had a poster admit that he used his money to invest so he wouldn't have to work for his money anymore. Fucking amazing that kind of thing is admired by some. The ability to earn by not working. The American dream. No wonder we're fucked.

Spoken like a true communist.

Stop with the praise Meister, let's get back to insults!