Social Security is Not a Ponzi Scheme, Mr. Perry

[flacaltenn]

OPDoo:

Its not the same. The SS Trust fund represents an obligation of the United States Government to the beneficiaries of Social Security. The monies in the fund are owed to the beneficiaries - not the government - the Social Security Administration merely administers the funds. If the Treasury refuses to pay any of those obligations its in default just like any other debt.

When Congress STOLE the SS surplus -- they didnt' give the "trust fund" US treasury notes or bonds. What's there IS essentially a non-transferable intra-governmental transfer IOU.
In order to redeem that IOU -- it would have to come from NEW DEBT ISSUES that will cost US taxpayers $1.30 in principal and interest for every dollar paid to a reciepient.

It's stolen. There is no VALUE in the Trust Fund. Quit pulling this crap.. Truth is -- You beeen both ROBBED and LIED to... And next you want us to accept UNIVERSAL HealthCare??

 

[Intense]

SSI is an insurance policy.
They calculate that enough will die, etc before drawing or drawing too much.
Why the age to qualify needs to be raised since the life expectancy has raised.

Which is what will probably happen in the end.

 

[flacaltenn]

the Hard Right arguements here make no sense at all.

I'll try and help you Jake.. First part of the problem is -- it's not a "Hard Right" argument that Soc Sec has been exploited and neglected by Congress for 40 years. Can you remember a time in your life when folks were NOT WARNING about impending doom?

Not like this crisis just snuck up on poor Obama. Trust me, the NEXT FOOL in WhiteHouse is gonna look even worse solving this one..

Now what argument "doesn't make sense"?? I promise I'm not carrying concealed right now.

 

[saveliberty]

SSI is an insurance policy.
They calculate that enough will die, etc before drawing or drawing too much.
Why the age to qualify needs to be raised since the life expectancy has raised.

Which gives those of us not to retirement age yet, time to make the necessary changes. It also protects those already on Social Security. Still, I would like to see the funds replaced and in a lock box going forward.

 

[saveliberty]

Social Security is a Pyramid scheme. They take from everyone to pay everyone but it only works if you have more workers than retirees.

Any and all forms of retirement only work if their are sufficient workers to retirees. Unless you're literally stockpiling food and other goods that you will need in retirement, whatever your retirement is, be it social security, bonds, stocks, a friggin tree farm - requires that the goods you need be produced by the economy pretty close to the time you'll actually need them.

In other words - you could have, say, half the population living off of stock investments, and the other half working - but even then, still, the working half still has to make the stuff and services the non-working half needs - don't they?

This is why the best retirement investment you can have is a home that you own. Its one of the few real things you can actually purchase years in advance and use in retirement.

That's why it won't work for the baby boomers. We've reached the point of stagnation. No new jobs but lots of new people retiring. They set the retirement age at 65 originally hoping not to pay out. They started borrowing from the fund the minute it was implemented.

You'll be delighted to know that with childhood obesity rates at what they are, the generation of children today will be the first to die younger than their parents. That will definitely lighten the load on SS. If we can just make it through the baby boom we'll be clear!

I don't know any insurance companies that borrow their own money for their own expenses and then put in an IOU. That's what the treasury bonds are, IOUs from America.

An insurance policy represents a financial obligation of the insurance company to you. If you have a policy - its backed by nothing but that companies promise to pay.

False, check up the term reserve in insurance lingo.

 

[Intense]

the Hard Right arguements here make no sense at all.

Like all of that Lock Box Fairy Tale BullShit?

Keep derailing conservatism, ignoring the threat from the Left, and we will not rest until every Country Club is either turned into a Casino or a Tittie Bar.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

If Bill Gates wrote "I Owe Me $1,000,000" on a scrap of paper and stuffed it in a jar, it would still be worthless.

It wouldn't if he sold it to someone.

Who would buy a paper saying the bearer owes Bill Gates $1,000,000?

Bill Gates I'm sure has excellent credit and could get a loan for 1 mil easy if he needed it.

No one would buy a payer saying they owe someone money.

Its done all the time. When you deposit your money in a savings account, for instance. The money is loaned out, all you're left with is a piece of paper from the bank saying they owe you that amount.

That's like trying to sell your mortgage to someone. No one is going to buy your mortgage.

LOL! Do you watch the news at all? People buy and sell mortgages all the time! Mine was sold before our first payment even came due!

Pension funds are required to have marketable assets in them, not company obligations.

Bullshit. Companies have underfunded pensions all the time. A traditional pension is an obligation from the company to the employee to pay X amount of dollars from age Y until that person dies. If the company fails to set aside enough from the beneficiaries salary to meet that obligation, they still have to pay it.

They always do it with stock from other companies or bonds issued by other companies.

Hello? Ever heard of ENRON? They funded their employees retirements with COMPANY STOCK.

 

[bripat9643]

Do you hear what I am saying at all? THE INSURANCE COMPANY PAYS THE CLAIMS OF OTHER CLIENTS WITH YOUR PREMIUMS!.

No it doesn't. The minute an insurance company opens its doors, it's legally required to have enough assets to pay off all potential claims.

They don't take your premiums and stick them in a lockbox for a rainy day ya fool!

They invest your premiums in stocks and bonds. Insurance companies are the biggest institutional investors in the country. Where do you think they get the money to make these investments?

Sure, if they have extra left over after paying claims with your premium, they will sock it away - but to pay the claims of anyone as they are needed, not just yours in particular! They frequently also have insurance themselves - reinsurance - so that if they are hit by lots and lots of claims all at once and don't have the funds to pay - the claims are covered.

You obviously don't know squat about how insurance companies operate.

But no - they don't take your premiums and sock them away for you! The one exception may be SOME life insurance products - but even then, probably not.

They don't do it for you, but they do it so they can pay your claims, if you have any.

Thus - by YOUR definition - insurance is a Ponzi scheme.

No one is swallowing that horseshit.

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

Social Security is a Pyramid scheme. They take from everyone to pay everyone but it only works if you have more workers than retirees.

Any and all forms of retirement only work if their are sufficient workers to retirees. Unless you're literally stockpiling food and other goods that you will need in retirement, whatever your retirement is, be it social security, bonds, stocks, a friggin tree farm - requires that the goods you need be produced by the economy pretty close to the time you'll actually need them.

In other words - you could have, say, half the population living off of stock investments, and the other half working - but even then, still, the working half still has to make the stuff and services the non-working half needs - don't they?

This is why the best retirement investment you can have is a home that you own. Its one of the few real things you can actually purchase years in advance and use in retirement.



You'll be delighted to know that with childhood obesity rates at what they are, the generation of children today will be the first to die younger than their parents. That will definitely lighten the load on SS. If we can just make it through the baby boom we'll be clear!

I don't know any insurance companies that borrow their own money for their own expenses and then put in an IOU. That's what the treasury bonds are, IOUs from America.

An insurance policy represents a financial obligation of the insurance company to you. If you have a policy - its backed by nothing but that companies promise to pay.

False, check up the term reserve in insurance lingo.

They save part of your premiums, I don't dispute that. But if everyone an insurer insurers were to all make a claim at once - they wouldn't have it.

 

[Contumacious]

Hello? Ever heard of ENRON? They funded their employees retirements with COMPANY STOCK.

Yeah, but ENRON couldn't print money.

The federales can. So what if they have to raise the debt ceiling to a quadrillion dollars . Starkey and the parasitic faction love a free luch.

.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

For the SS is not a Ponzi scheme crowd.

One, a Ponzi scheme collects money from new investors and uses it to pay previous investors—minus a fee. But Social Security collects money from new investors, uses some of it to pay previous investors, and spends the surplus on programs for politically favored groups—minus the cost of supporting a massive bureaucracy. Over the years, trillions of dollars have been spent on these groups and bureaucrats. Two, participation in Ponzi schemes is voluntary. Not so with Social Security. The government automatically withholds payroll taxes and “invests” them for you.
Three: When a Ponzi scheme can’t con new investors in sufficient numbers to pay the previous investors, it collapses. But when Social Security runs low on investors—also called poor working stiffs—it raises taxes.

Social Security is Not a Ponzi Scheme, Mr. Perry - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

If Social Security is a Ponzi scheme then so is any insurance product.

Do you have a point?

 

[OohPooPahDoo]

No it doesn't. The minute an insurance company opens its doors, it's legally required to have enough assets to pay off all potential claims.

It is not. They can pass off some of the risk with reinsurance.

They invest your premiums in stocks and bonds. Insurance companies are the biggest institutional investors in the country. Where do you think they get the money to make these investments?

What happens when they have to pay a claim to you before they've socked away enough of your premiums to pay it?


What happens when they invest it in treasuries - $700 billion of them ?

 

[Liability]

For the SS is not a Ponzi scheme crowd.

One, a Ponzi scheme collects money from new investors and uses it to pay previous investors—minus a fee. But Social Security collects money from new investors, uses some of it to pay previous investors, and spends the surplus on programs for politically favored groups—minus the cost of supporting a massive bureaucracy. Over the years, trillions of dollars have been spent on these groups and bureaucrats. Two, participation in Ponzi schemes is voluntary. Not so with Social Security. The government automatically withholds payroll taxes and “invests” them for you.
Three: When a Ponzi scheme can’t con new investors in sufficient numbers to pay the previous investors, it collapses. But when Social Security runs low on investors—also called poor working stiffs—it raises taxes.

Social Security is Not a Ponzi Scheme, Mr. Perry - Hit & Run : Reason Magazine

If Social Security is a Ponzi scheme then so is any insurance product.

So, you don't know diddly dog about the operation of Insurance Companies, eh oompahdufus?

 

[Liability]

No it doesn't. The minute an insurance company opens its doors, it's legally required to have enough assets to pay off all potential claims.

It is not. They can pass off some of the risk with reinsurance.

Which, by definition, MEANS that they DO have the assets to pay of all potential claims, moron.

 

[bripat9643]

Who would buy a paper saying the bearer owes Bill Gates $1,000,000?

Bill Gates I'm sure has excellent credit and could get a loan for 1 mil easy if he needed it.

True, he could get a loan from a bank, not from himself.

Its done all the time. When you deposit your money in a savings account, for instance. The money is loaned out, all you're left with is a piece of paper from the bank saying they owe you that amount.

The bank loans the money to people who have to pay it back. It doesn't loan the money to itself. Your analogies don't compare to what the so-called "trust fund" is.

LOL! Do you watch the news at all? People buy and sell mortgages all the time! Mine was sold before our first payment even came due!

I knew you would say that. Banks sell the right to collect from you. No one sells your obligation to pay the bank. You can't even keep the two ends of the deal straight.

Pension funds are required to have marketable assets in them, not company obligations.

Bullshit. Companies have underfunded pensions all the time. A traditional pension is an obligation from the company to the employee to pay X amount of dollars from age Y until that person dies. If the company fails to set aside enough from the beneficiaries salary to meet that obligation, they still have to pay it.

"Underfunded" means they didn't have enough marketable assets in them. It's against the law. "Setting aside the beneficiary's salary" means investing it in marketable assets, such as stock and bonds. Putting company issued stock in a drawer isn't putting away jack squat. it's fraud, and it's illegal.

They always do it with stock from other companies or bonds issued by other companies.

Hello? Ever heard of ENRON? They funded their employees retirements with COMPANY STOCK.

No they didn't. They offered free stock in their 401K plan, which is not a defined benefit plan. Companies are allowed to give employees company stock, which is all Enron did. Those employees got burned when the company filed for bankruptcy.

 

[clevergirl]

I don't think you know what solvent means.



Social Security is mostly sustained by revenues from FICA taxation - not interest on treasury obligations.


Meaning bla bla bla.... you don't know what the fuck you're even talking about.

LOL...I don't know WTF I am talking about? Get a clue dude!

SS is a tax- TRUE.

SS is funded by FICA taxes- FALSE

SS is collected through FICA taxes- TRUE

FICA taxes are only used to pay SS benefits- FALSE

FICA taxes are used to fund numerous obligations- TRUE

Back to square one. SS is not a fund it is an accounting instrument. Right now SS is insolvent. This claim is valid, IF, nothing is done to increase SS revenues-at this date nothing has been done. Revenues for SS come from current T-bills and younger workers. T-bills purchased with any remaining receipts, are nothing more then notes the Treasury department uses, to fund numerous liabilities, including SS.

SS is currently taking in less receipts then liabilities and wholly dependent on cashing in T-bills to balance the sheets... any economic crisis can harm this very tenuous accounting. What you call a surplus is all smoke and mirrors. The government is obligated to pay back what it has taken...but at what cost?

The idea that we can continue to raise taxes and extend retirement years, is absurd. SS is not a good investment for retirement. It ought to be reformed and be an option for the in-betweener's and a completely different animal for those under 40.

clevergirl and the other sillies truly do not know of what they talk. But SS is insolvent because the money is removed and has been for more than forty years by Congress for other expenses. Leave the money alone, and the fund is solvent.

clevergirl, don't think you come in here and act like a one-trick pony.

<eye-roll> You are naive to think SS can be "left alone". If it was "left alone" other obligations would come due.

For the slower on the up-take- SS is NOT a fund.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If Social Security is a Ponzi scheme then so is any insurance product.

Many overlook the fact that Social Security is insurance.

Actually, it isn't.

Insurance is a pool that people pay into in case they need help. Social Security is a fund people pay in for when they retire. The first is obviously not going to pay out to everyone, the second is actually designed to pay out to everyone.

Calling it insurance just proves you do not know what insurance is, which probably explains why politicians call it insurance.

 

[Big Black Dog]

The only problem today with social security today is the US government. Working people have paid into this program all of their working careers. The government has squandered this money away on everything except for what it was intended for. Now, all of a sudden there is a social security crisis that must be "fixed". The government is slipping away from this crime with little or no finger being pointed at them - the ones who caused the problem. Meanwhile, everybody else will suffer because the politicians in Washington are crooks. Had the government managed these funds the ways the way they were intended to be managed there would never be a problem with social security.

 

[saveliberty]

I some fashion, Social Security is somewhat like an annuity.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If SSI is a Ponzi scheme, so too are all those T-Bills people own.

How is a T-bill, which actually encourages people to buy something knowing they will be paid off by future taxes, if they are high enough, or the sale of future T-bills, not a Ponzi scheme?

I will give you a hint, it is because the government runs it and gets to define terms.