Slavery/Racism: Some Questions

[PoliticalChic]

Based on some recent posts, racism and the battle against same, is the central thesis for many of our progressive colleagues. Some, it seems, found the actions of Chris Rock acceptable based on his race....and some imagined racism, and/or legacy of slavery....



1. Liberals love the idea of the “apology,” that the government should apologize for slavery, Japanese internment, you name it.

2. The Rabbis teach that no apology is legitimate unless the offender:

a. Expresses remorse stating specifically what he has done
b. Makes restitution
c. Refrains, in similar circumstances, from committing the offense again.

3. Based on the first of these, a governmental apology founders, without specifics as to who the “we” is, and who the “they” of the apology are.

4. Take the question of slavery vis-à-vis the American Government of today. Is it guilty of slavery?

a. If so, are those African American members of government equally guilty?

b. Are the American people alive today guilty?

c. If so, which ones? The black as well as the white?

d. Is the guilt heritable…for if it is, then would not those (the great majority of) Americans whose ancestors did not arrive until after slavery be exempt from apology?

e. How about the ancestors of the 300,000 white males who died to defeat slavery? Exempt as well? And the whites who voted for the 14th amendment and the Civil Rights Act?

f. And if not, on what basis are the descendants of slaves entitled to it?

5. Is it not absurd that six or seven decades after the West defeated Nazi Racism we are still considering making government decisions based on genetics?

6. To indulge in any racial preferences is not to award to a race, but, rather, to the state, the power to created different classes of citizens, and to rule on who shall belong to each class. This does not serve any desire for justice.

From chapter 12 of “The Secret Knowledge,” David Mamet.

Nice source, an iconoclast and curmudgeon offers that which you and others on the right want to hear. Having the the ability to write an "ain't it awful" book isn't very difficult; very few are capable of putting rational solutions to problems in print - it's so much easier to emote. Isn't it PC?

1. David Mamet... offers that which you and others on the Left don't want to hear.

And the reason....if he were not correct, and his questions pointedly dispositive, you wouldn't be as upset.

True?

2. "Having the the ability to write an "ain't it awful" book isn't very difficult;..."
So...which ones have you written?

I know you are a reader: pick up the book; as is true of so many on the Right (Coulter) it is insightful, well written, humorous, ....and veracious.

Double dog dare ya.'

 

[MuadDib]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. The biggest mistake this country has ever made was bring slaves into the country. The second biggest mistake was to not load them all up on a ship and return them to Africa once they were freed.

That was Lincoln's plan for Reconsctruction. He belonged to the American Colonization Society.

 

[regent]

When a nation apologizes it is not the people of the day apologizing for their actions, it is the government apologizing for a nation's past action. Perhaps the biggest lesson, not usually thought of, is are we doing something today that will be seen as a bad act in the future, and the nation, of the future, will have to apologize for us? One of the problems of a democracy is that people's attitudes change slowly. Many of the founding period believed slavery was wrong but it took time for enough people to come to that same conclusion. What are we doing today that we may have to apologize for tomorrow, perhaps nothing, perhaps plenty?

 

[rightwinger]

Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.

A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors

 

[Foxfyre]

Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.

A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors

Yeah they are. It hasn't been that long ago that restitution was seen in monetary terms. But regardless, every debate re race, especially when the 'disadvantaged' or 'victim' motifs start showing up, always returns to the issue of slavery. Because many black people descend from slaves, despite slavery ending almost 150 years ago, and/or experienced or descended from people who experienced segregation and other prejudicial issues, the drumbeat of victimization continues. And we owe them for that.

In short most black people are portrayed as too damaged to be expected to take full advantage of the American dream without help. Unfortunately, that translates into most black people being 'inferior' and incapable of making it without "Whitey's" help.

And I see again and again that this may be the most cruel phenomena we have imposed on black people yet.

 

[Artevelde]

Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.

A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors

Few things are so a-historical and misguided as all these apologies for so-called historical crimes.

 

[rightwinger]

Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.

A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors

Yeah they are. It hasn't been that long ago that restitution was seen in monetary terms. But regardless, every debate re race, especially when the 'disadvantaged' or 'victim' motifs start showing up, always returns to the issue of slavery. Because many black people descend from slaves, despite slavery ending almost 150 years ago, and/or experienced or descended from people who experienced segregation and other prejudicial issues, the drumbeat of victimization continues. And we owe them for that.

In short most black people are portrayed as too damaged to be expected to take full advantage of the American dream without help. Unfortunately, that translates into most black people being 'inferior' and incapable of making it without "Whitey's" help.

And I see again and again that this may be the most cruel phenomena we have imposed on black people yet.

Who specifically is asking for restitution?

Which bills have been presented in Congress addressing restitution? Can you show where debates about race today have brought up slavery?

Rightwing urban legends

 

[Foxfyre]

Nobody is seriously asking for restitution. It gets bigger play in the rightwing media (Look at what those liberals are doing!) than there are people seriously trying gain restitution.

A nation examining its past and acknowledging past mistakes is healthy for a nation and helps prevent repeating past errors

Yeah they are. It hasn't been that long ago that restitution was seen in monetary terms. But regardless, every debate re race, especially when the 'disadvantaged' or 'victim' motifs start showing up, always returns to the issue of slavery. Because many black people descend from slaves, despite slavery ending almost 150 years ago, and/or experienced or descended from people who experienced segregation and other prejudicial issues, the drumbeat of victimization continues. And we owe them for that.

In short most black people are portrayed as too damaged to be expected to take full advantage of the American dream without help. Unfortunately, that translates into most black people being 'inferior' and incapable of making it without "Whitey's" help.

And I see again and again that this may be the most cruel phenomena we have imposed on black people yet.

Who specifically is asking for restitution?

Which bills have been presented in Congress addressing restitution? Can you show where debates about race today have brought up slavery?

Rightwing urban legends

It doesn't have to be broken down into personalities. And you can look at this thread alone--plus any others dealing with racism--to see the issue of slavery inserted into it frequently. Try to think outside the box here instead of through ideologically colored glasses or with blinders on to the larger issues.

The point is, that to assume that black people are still disadvantaged and/or damaged because of slavery and discrimination is to relegate black people to second class status and inferior to everybody else. To assume that a black person cannot be expected to make it without help from the rest of society, in very material ways, is to assume that such black person is less capable than other people in society.

Can you focus on that concept? Dispute it if you can.

 

[Katzndogz]

Arguments against historical slavery are silly nonsense. As if the Brits can demand that Italy pay for the dominion of Rome over Londinium. As if it would make sense that Paul McCartney paint himself blue and protest the enslavement of the Britons.

 

[rightwinger]

Yeah they are. It hasn't been that long ago that restitution was seen in monetary terms. But regardless, every debate re race, especially when the 'disadvantaged' or 'victim' motifs start showing up, always returns to the issue of slavery. Because many black people descend from slaves, despite slavery ending almost 150 years ago, and/or experienced or descended from people who experienced segregation and other prejudicial issues, the drumbeat of victimization continues. And we owe them for that.

In short most black people are portrayed as too damaged to be expected to take full advantage of the American dream without help. Unfortunately, that translates into most black people being 'inferior' and incapable of making it without "Whitey's" help.

And I see again and again that this may be the most cruel phenomena we have imposed on black people yet.

Who specifically is asking for restitution?

Which bills have been presented in Congress addressing restitution? Can you show where debates about race today have brought up slavery?

Rightwing urban legends

It doesn't have to be broken down into personalities. And you can look at this thread alone--plus any others dealing with racism--to see the issue of slavery inserted into it frequently. Try to think outside the box here instead of through ideologically colored glasses or with blinders on to the larger issues.

The point is, that to assume that black people are still disadvantaged and/or damaged because of slavery and discrimination is to relegate black people to second class status and inferior to everybody else. To assume that a black person cannot be expected to make it without help from the rest of society, in very material ways, is to assume that such black person is less capable than other people in society.

Can you focus on that concept? Dispute it if you can.

If you look at our social programs, very few are targeted to blacks and none are provided as a restitution for slavery. Social programs are targeted towards lower economic classes. Blacks may make up a large percentage of these classes but whites, hispanics and even asians benefit from these programs

Society does not help someone because they are black....they help them because they need help

 

[Foxfyre]

Who specifically is asking for restitution?

Which bills have been presented in Congress addressing restitution? Can you show where debates about race today have brought up slavery?

Rightwing urban legends

It doesn't have to be broken down into personalities. And you can look at this thread alone--plus any others dealing with racism--to see the issue of slavery inserted into it frequently. Try to think outside the box here instead of through ideologically colored glasses or with blinders on to the larger issues.

The point is, that to assume that black people are still disadvantaged and/or damaged because of slavery and discrimination is to relegate black people to second class status and inferior to everybody else. To assume that a black person cannot be expected to make it without help from the rest of society, in very material ways, is to assume that such black person is less capable than other people in society.

Can you focus on that concept? Dispute it if you can.

If you look at our social programs, very few are targeted to blacks and none are provided as a restitution for slavery. Social programs are targeted towards lower economic classes. Blacks may make up a large percentage of these classes but whites, hispanics and even asians benefit from these programs

Society does not help someone because they are black....they help them because they need help

And yet how many times have you on the left accused the GOP or conservatives of racism because we do NOT want to target black people for help any more than any other group? What is the purpose of pushing Affirmative Action if not specifically for the benefit of black people with a weak side emphasis on woman? Do you see anybody getting excited about Hispanics or Italians or Irishmen or Asians being out of work? But the media focuses on black unemployment. Black poverty. Black attrition in the schools. And the necessity for sufficient slots in all areas of commerce and industry to be served for black people.

But let anybody focus in any comprehensive way on the breakdown of the black family, the unconscionable high levels of black on black crime, black teen pregnancy, or attitudes deemed contrary to black success among black people, or protests against black activism, or even criticism of a President who happens to be black, and the cries of racism are immediate and loud. We are told that black people can't be held accountable for such things. They are handicapped. They descended from slaves.

The phenomenon is one of the cruelest and most insidious forms of racism that exists and does immeasurable harm to black people.

 

[rightwinger]

It doesn't have to be broken down into personalities. And you can look at this thread alone--plus any others dealing with racism--to see the issue of slavery inserted into it frequently. Try to think outside the box here instead of through ideologically colored glasses or with blinders on to the larger issues.

The point is, that to assume that black people are still disadvantaged and/or damaged because of slavery and discrimination is to relegate black people to second class status and inferior to everybody else. To assume that a black person cannot be expected to make it without help from the rest of society, in very material ways, is to assume that such black person is less capable than other people in society.

Can you focus on that concept? Dispute it if you can.

If you look at our social programs, very few are targeted to blacks and none are provided as a restitution for slavery. Social programs are targeted towards lower economic classes. Blacks may make up a large percentage of these classes but whites, hispanics and even asians benefit from these programs

Society does not help someone because they are black....they help them because they need help

And yet how many times have you on the left accused the GOP or conservatives of racism because we do NOT want to target black people for help any more than any other group? What is the purpose of pushing Affirmative Action if not specifically for the benefit of black people with a weak side emphasis on woman? Do you see anybody getting excited about Hispanics or Italians or Irishmen or Asians being out of work? But the media focuses on black unemployment. Black poverty. Black attrition in the schools. And the necessity for sufficient slots in all areas of commerce and industry to be served for black people.

But let anybody focus in any comprehensive way on the breakdown of the black family, the unconscionable high levels of black on black crime, black teen pregnancy, or attitudes deemed contrary to black success among black people, or protests against black activism, or even criticism of a President who happens to be black, and the cries of racism are immediate and loud. We are told that black people can't be held accountable for such things. They are handicapped. They descended from slaves.

The phenomenon is one of the cruelest and most insidious forms of racism that exists and does immeasurable harm to black people.

Nobody is targeting blacks for help. What happens is that programs that cut aid to education, childcare, jobs programs.....all hurt blacks disproportionately.

Affirmative action was a necessary follow up to civil rights legislation. Guess what? It worked. We have a much higher representation of blacks, women, hispanics and other groups than we would have gotten if the system were left alone

 

[Foxfyre]

If you look at our social programs, very few are targeted to blacks and none are provided as a restitution for slavery. Social programs are targeted towards lower economic classes. Blacks may make up a large percentage of these classes but whites, hispanics and even asians benefit from these programs

Society does not help someone because they are black....they help them because they need help

And yet how many times have you on the left accused the GOP or conservatives of racism because we do NOT want to target black people for help any more than any other group? What is the purpose of pushing Affirmative Action if not specifically for the benefit of black people with a weak side emphasis on woman? Do you see anybody getting excited about Hispanics or Italians or Irishmen or Asians being out of work? But the media focuses on black unemployment. Black poverty. Black attrition in the schools. And the necessity for sufficient slots in all areas of commerce and industry to be served for black people.

But let anybody focus in any comprehensive way on the breakdown of the black family, the unconscionable high levels of black on black crime, black teen pregnancy, or attitudes deemed contrary to black success among black people, or protests against black activism, or even criticism of a President who happens to be black, and the cries of racism are immediate and loud. We are told that black people can't be held accountable for such things. They are handicapped. They descended from slaves.

The phenomenon is one of the cruelest and most insidious forms of racism that exists and does immeasurable harm to black people.

Nobody is targeting blacks for help. What happens is that programs that cut aid to education, childcare, jobs programs.....all hurt blacks disproportionately.

Affirmative action was a necessary follow up to civil rights legislation. Guess what? It worked. We have a much higher representation of blacks, women, hispanics and other groups than we would have gotten if the system were left alone

So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately? Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

I agree, and have long said, that Affirmative Action was necessary to bring down barriors in the wake of desegregation. Culturally ingrained prejudices were strong and doors were closed to black people purely because they were black or whatever. That war was won within a decade, however, and those who promote true racial equality, such as myself, know that it was then time to stop fighting it. To continue fighting it promotes racial consciousness rather than help eliminate it. We now have an Equal Rights Amendment that provides remedy for those who are illegally discriminated against. Affirmative Action should be put on the high shelf and removed from the American scene so that people can be seen as capable people who merited their position instead of achieving it artificially through legislation.

 

[rightwinger]

And yet how many times have you on the left accused the GOP or conservatives of racism because we do NOT want to target black people for help any more than any other group? What is the purpose of pushing Affirmative Action if not specifically for the benefit of black people with a weak side emphasis on woman? Do you see anybody getting excited about Hispanics or Italians or Irishmen or Asians being out of work? But the media focuses on black unemployment. Black poverty. Black attrition in the schools. And the necessity for sufficient slots in all areas of commerce and industry to be served for black people.

But let anybody focus in any comprehensive way on the breakdown of the black family, the unconscionable high levels of black on black crime, black teen pregnancy, or attitudes deemed contrary to black success among black people, or protests against black activism, or even criticism of a President who happens to be black, and the cries of racism are immediate and loud. We are told that black people can't be held accountable for such things. They are handicapped. They descended from slaves.

The phenomenon is one of the cruelest and most insidious forms of racism that exists and does immeasurable harm to black people.

Nobody is targeting blacks for help. What happens is that programs that cut aid to education, childcare, jobs programs.....all hurt blacks disproportionately.

Affirmative action was a necessary follow up to civil rights legislation. Guess what? It worked. We have a much higher representation of blacks, women, hispanics and other groups than we would have gotten if the system were left alone

So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately? Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

.

Because blacks are disproportionately poor

 

[PoliticalChic]

Nobody is targeting blacks for help. What happens is that programs that cut aid to education, childcare, jobs programs.....all hurt blacks disproportionately.

Affirmative action was a necessary follow up to civil rights legislation. Guess what? It worked. We have a much higher representation of blacks, women, hispanics and other groups than we would have gotten if the system were left alone

So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately? Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

.

Because blacks are disproportionately poor

1. Every Leftist is, essentially, a Marxist…even though most eschew the title since the fall of the Soviet Union. Even so, Left-wing ideas are predicated on Marx’s materialist view. Philosophically, the term implies that only material things are real.

a. While the Judeo-Christian society labels actions as ‘good’ or ‘evil,’ due to morality and/or self-control, the Left sees the results as due to material inequality, i.e., violent crime due to poverty.

b. The Left has been far more interested in fighting material inequality than tyranny, which is why Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc., tend to have the support of Leftists around the world.

c. The Left is less interested in creating wealth than in distributing it.


2. So, for the Left, assuaging the ills of slavery is about economic equality, and the fact that they subscribe to an America made up of classes based on skin color is hardly a problem.

 

[rightwinger]

So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately? Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

.

Because blacks are disproportionately poor

1. Every Leftist is, essentially, a Marxist…even though most eschew the title since the fall of the Soviet Union. Even so, Left-wing ideas are predicated on Marx’s materialist view. Philosophically, the term implies that only material things are real.

a. While the Judeo-Christian society labels actions as ‘good’ or ‘evil,’ due to morality and/or self-control, the Left sees the results as due to material inequality, i.e., violent crime due to poverty.

b. The Left has been far more interested in fighting material inequality than tyranny, which is why Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc., tend to have the support of Leftists around the world.

c. The Left is less interested in creating wealth than in distributing it.


2. So, for the Left, assuaging the ills of slavery is about economic equality, and the fact that they subscribe to an America made up of classes based on skin color is hardly a problem.

Sorry

Has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

But at least you didn't cut and paste

 

[Foxfyre]

Nobody is targeting blacks for help. What happens is that programs that cut aid to education, childcare, jobs programs.....all hurt blacks disproportionately.

Affirmative action was a necessary follow up to civil rights legislation. Guess what? It worked. We have a much higher representation of blacks, women, hispanics and other groups than we would have gotten if the system were left alone

So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately? Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

.

Because blacks are disproportionately poor

And I go back to a previous post recounting how Thomas Sowell, Starr Parker, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele, and many others have done exhaustive research on the dynamics of the black community and have exhaustively written their results. Despite rampant racism and segregation, black people were the most rapidly advancing demographic economically UNTIL the Great Society and the resulting "nanny state'.

So isn't it at least worth taking a look at that the 'nanny state', its own form of racism, as having been a significant factor in creating a black demographic that is disproportionately poor? And wouldn't the compassionate thing be to condemn that form of racism that encourages people to be disproportionately poor?

 

[PoliticalChic]

Because blacks are disproportionately poor

1. Every Leftist is, essentially, a Marxist…even though most eschew the title since the fall of the Soviet Union. Even so, Left-wing ideas are predicated on Marx’s materialist view. Philosophically, the term implies that only material things are real.

a. While the Judeo-Christian society labels actions as ‘good’ or ‘evil,’ due to morality and/or self-control, the Left sees the results as due to material inequality, i.e., violent crime due to poverty.

b. The Left has been far more interested in fighting material inequality than tyranny, which is why Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc., tend to have the support of Leftists around the world.

c. The Left is less interested in creating wealth than in distributing it.


2. So, for the Left, assuaging the ills of slavery is about economic equality, and the fact that they subscribe to an America made up of classes based on skin color is hardly a problem.

Sorry

Has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

But at least you didn't cut and paste

Of course it does...but I understand both your pretense and your sensitivity to the analysis.

 

[rightwinger]

So WHY does cutting federal spending for various programs hurt blacks disproportionately? Don't you think that is a question worth exploring?

.

Because blacks are disproportionately poor

And I go back to a previous post recounting how Thomas Sowell, Starr Parker, Walter Williams, Shelby Steele, and many others have done exhaustive research on the dynamics of the black community and have exhaustively written their results. Despite rampant racism and segregation, black people were the most rapidly advancing demographic economically UNTIL the Great Society and the resulting "nanny state'.

So isn't it at least worth taking a look at that the 'nanny state', its own form of racism, as having been a significant factor in creating a black demographic that is disproportionately poor? And wouldn't the compassionate thing be to condemn that form of racism that encourages people to be disproportionately poor?

I fail to see the establishment of cause and effect on social programs and the current state of the black community. I think the works of Sowell, Parker et al are intended to satisfy the Conservative think tanks that feed them

Essentially, how do Great Society programs like Jobs programs, healthcare and educational support make things worse for poor people?

I grow tired of the Conservative meme of you have to force people to suffer in order for them to "pick themselves up by their bootstraps" and get a job.

Right now our problem is the lack of well paying jobs to allow people to rise from poverty. Cutting the social safety net will not help that happen any sooner

 

[rightwinger]

1. Every Leftist is, essentially, a Marxist…even though most eschew the title since the fall of the Soviet Union. Even so, Left-wing ideas are predicated on Marx’s materialist view. Philosophically, the term implies that only material things are real.

a. While the Judeo-Christian society labels actions as ‘good’ or ‘evil,’ due to morality and/or self-control, the Left sees the results as due to material inequality, i.e., violent crime due to poverty.

b. The Left has been far more interested in fighting material inequality than tyranny, which is why Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, Ho Chi Minh, Castro, etc., tend to have the support of Leftists around the world.

c. The Left is less interested in creating wealth than in distributing it.


2. So, for the Left, assuaging the ills of slavery is about economic equality, and the fact that they subscribe to an America made up of classes based on skin color is hardly a problem.

Sorry

Has nothing to do with the topic of discussion.

But at least you didn't cut and paste

Of course it does...but I understand both your pretense and your sensitivity to the analysis.

I get better analysis out of Stephanie, Willow and Mr. Nick

Your attempts at baiting are pathetic. I have however, found your button of insecurity about how your educational prowness is perceived. Not too impressive