shouldnt health care be free to all of us

[_dmp_]

see...you want to HAVE your cake...and you want to EAT it...but once you EAT it, you'll no longer HAVE it.

:-/

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Moi
The simple solution to the high cost of health care is not to have it paid for by the federal government. That's not free, it costs money- money taken from those who work to support those who don't.

Bingo Moi, the premiss of this thread is completely wrong. There is no such thing as free health care! But it does say alot when people presume that such a thing is "free".

 

[Big D]

Health care is free:

Senators John McCain and John Kyl have proposed a solution for this dilemma: lighten the tax burden on their own state while shifting it to U.S. taxpayers nationwide. How parochial! They introduced a bill to hit the U.S. taxpayers for $200 million for medical treatment of illegal aliens.

http://www.eagleforum.org/psr/2003/feb03/psrfeb03.shtml

 

[MtnBiker]

Originally posted by Big D
Health care is free:

Senators John McCain and John Kyl have proposed a solution for this dilemma: lighten the tax burden on their own state while shifting it to U.S. taxpayers nationwide.

I wished paying taxes, state, local or federal was free!

 

[Quad]

Since the entire country benefits from the business and market advantages of illegal immigration, and since both parties profit from allowing it to continue, and since illegal immigration continues because of a lack of federal regulatory action, and since states are not legally allowed to take action it is only logical that the costs of illegal immigration be felt on the federal level.

 

[eric]

This must change if we do not want this country to spiral into the ground. Uncontrolled immigration of an unskilled labor force is a sure recipie for disaster !

 

[Quad]

Right.

Basically the level headed arguments on both sides acknowledge a couple of basic things.

#1. We need a large amount of immigrants from central/south america.

#2. We need to regulate the flow (atleast know how many are coming in) so our infrastructure doesn't collapse.

Personally I think the most ethical and realistic solution is to hand out easily attainable work permits and identification (to address economic and infrastructure issues where illegal immigration is a drain and protect civil rights of human beings), make citizenship relatively easily attainable for tax paying permitted workers after X amount of years or X amount of taxes, define our national language as english and provide citizenship training to potential citizens, and create real penalties for business and individuals who work without a permit.

The reason illegal immigration continues is because it is extremely profitable and because we have a market-based electoral system. Politicians aren't going to hurt business, they're going to make divisive arguments to win votes and not really do anything.

 

[winston churchi]

Be carefull what you wish for.

Free healthcare would be followed by abuse of healthcare.
Take England for example....in fact...take a trip to an emergency room of a top hospital in London...I went to visit a friend and the emergency room was a zoo to put it mildly. There were people there from severe falls, broken bones to overcut fingernails who had taken a free ride in the ambulance.

You have a health issue that requires immediet attention? Are you prepared to wait six mos? Well plan on it. You and about a million others are on a 'waiting' list for emergency services...in fact...most people have turned to privite healthcare so the pay for it anyway.

Need to have oral surgery? Having serious pain in your mouth? How about up to a year wait for that....or have a student fix it now or go privite.

So free isn't always free.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

See, liberals view government as their own personal jobs program, so they want government to do everything. More power for them. See, it's simple.

 

[insein]

Originally posted by winston churchi
Be carefull what you wish for.

Free healthcare would be followed by abuse of healthcare.
Take England for example....in fact...take a trip to an emergency room of a top hospital in London...I went to visit a friend and the emergency room was a zoo to put it mildly. There were people there from severe falls, broken bones to overcut fingernails who had taken a free ride in the ambulance.

You have a health issue that requires immediet attention? Are you prepared to wait six mos? Well plan on it. You and about a million others are on a 'waiting' list for emergency services...in fact...most people have turned to privite healthcare so the pay for it anyway.

Need to have oral surgery? Having serious pain in your mouth? How about up to a year wait for that....or have a student fix it now or go privite.

So free isn't always free.

And England has about 1/6 the population of the US. Imagine the hysteria if the US tried "Free Health Care". People would die on the waiting list for a Freaking Flu vaccination.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Coming from Canada, where we have a free healthcare system I can say first hand that it's not the demon it's made out to be down south.

First thing it's not communism, public healthcare is a choice. Why should a government provide security for its people? It's not a inherint right, but perceived right as a choice of the people, or rulers in many cases. One could say the same with food regulation, national science boards and education. When the people want universal access to health care it is no different.

Socialized health care is not without it faults. Government is never as effecient as the private sector when it comes to spending. However, I can cite probably as many sources saying that public health care is as expensive or cheaper per capita as prviate that i could in reverse.

That being said, it works. Often the quality is not as high as some high end HMO's, but in the end we do receive care when we need it. So very rarely is someone ever turned away.

I believe there is room for a two-tiered health-care system in Canada and other places, where a minimum health care net is in place, while the privatization could take some of the financial burden off the system.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Coming from Canada, where we have a free healthcare system I can say first hand that it's not the demon it's made out to be down south.

First thing it's not communism, public healthcare is a choice. Why should a government provide security for its people? It's not a inherint right, but perceived right as a choice of the people, or rulers in many cases. One could say the same with food regulation, national science boards and education. When the people want universal access to health care it is no different.

Socialized health care is not without it faults. Government is never as effecient as the private sector when it comes to spending. However, I can cite probably as many sources saying that public health care is as expensive or cheaper per capita as prviate that i could in reverse.

That being said, it works. Often the quality is not as high as some high end HMO's, but in the end we do receive care when we need it. So very rarely is someone ever turned away.

I believe there is room for a two-tiered health-care system in Canada and other places, where a minimum health care net is in place, while the privatization could take some of the financial burden off the system.

Perceived rights, actual rights, who really cares as long as there's a population of successful producers to exploit. Right, Isaac The Moderate?

If people think they deserve something who is anyone to tell them differently?

No wonder Canada sucks so much ass.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Perceived rights, actual rights, who really cares as long as there's a population of successful producers to exploit. Right, Isaac The Moderate?

If people think they deserve something who is anyone to tell them differently?

No wonder Canada sucks so much ass.

Yup that's why Canadian healthcare will stay a sovereign institution. Canadians want to keep it and so we shall. Go democracy!

 

[alan1234567890]

issack thankyou for you input. in the u.s 4 million people have no insurance. and so many more have sub rate insurance. What canada has would be much better then what we have now. i wish i could be canadian, i like your gun laws to. i dont think the us is the greatest as we like to say heres to canada.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by alan1234567890
issack thankyou for you input. in the u.s 4 million people have no insurance. and so many more have sub rate insurance. What canada has would be much better then what we have now. i wish i could be canadian, i like your gun laws to. i dont think the us is the greatest as we like to say heres to canada.

I'm not sure how the public health care would work in the US. Compared to Canada, there is a much larger descrepency between rich and poor creating a with gap between view on towards universal health care. Since the standard of living of many americans is much higher than Canadians, there isn't the same call for universal health care. To be honest, although I like our system, I don't know how it would work, both politcally and practically in the US.

Oh by the way, on an unrelated topic, I'm not a huge fan of Canadian gun laws. More specifically, gun registration since it is a cash cow and the fact that I've lived in the far north. I can, however, accept the ban on concealed weapons.

 

[alan1234567890]

most people think people are rich in the us i think average americans are living paycheck to pay check.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Yup that's why Canadian healthcare will stay a sovereign institution. Canadians want to keep it and so we shall. Go democracy!

Yes but your system relies on the security we're providing. Do you think canada would be anything without it's proximity to the U.S? If Canada had to do it's own global stabilization for it's internationalized economy, it'd be a different place. When you can fob off the dirty work to someone else and then deny it goes on, it's easy to feel pure. Isn't it Isaac?

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
Yes but your system relies on the security we're providing. Do you think canada would be anything without it's proximity to the U.S? If Canada had to do it's own global stabilization for it's internationalized economy, it'd be a different place. When you can fob off the dirty work to someone else and then deny it goes on, it's easy to feel pure. Isn't it Isaac?

Yup we exploit your security. Though I wouldn't feel too bad, our economic sovreignty is almost nil with american corporations owning vast amounts of Canadian wealth. Plus, we don't bitch too much about it either and we're not blowing ourselves up at your doorsteps. I'd say we're pretty good neightbours all and all.

 

[Isaac Brock]

Originally posted by alan1234567890
most people think people are rich in the us i think average americans are living paycheck to pay check.

But in comparison to other countries, you still are rich. The standard of living for the working poor is much higher than most other nations. Being poor isn't great, but it could be worse someplace else.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Originally posted by Isaac Brock
Yup we exploit your security. Though I wouldn't feel too bad, our economic sovreignty is almost nil with american corporations owning vast amounts of Canadian wealth. Plus, we don't bitch too much about it either and we're not blowing ourselves up at your doorsteps. I'd say we're pretty good neightbours all and all.

True. True. :clap1: