Should tax policy be “fair”?

[Jarhead]

Everyone is treated the same under a progressive system. We both get taxed the same on our 10,000th dollar earned, we get taxed the same amount of our 100,000 dollar earned and we get taxed the same on our 1,000,000 dollar earned. Seems equal to me.

Actually, that's not true. The tax code is full of deliberate carve outs and byzantine rules which lead to unintended results. We do not get taxed the same based on income. Even the rules of what constitutes income are complicated.

Our current tax code is the product of some social engineering, some legitimate means to fund the government, and a whole bunch of corruption in the process.

True. Our system is not as simple and ideal as I may have made it sound. There are plenty of loopholes, breaks and ways around the system that make it unfair. We need to clean up those loopholes and correct the system so the richest in our country can't continue to get richer and richer while the middle class get poorer and poorer.

Tax shelters are a thing of the past.
Tax deductions for children help everyone
Write off of mortgage interest help the less wealthy afford homes....and are invariably offset by the real estate taxes they have to pay
Tax deferred investments are income that are ultimately taxed.

I am curious what loopholes exist that you are referring to.

 

[RDD_1210]

Actually, that's not true. The tax code is full of deliberate carve outs and byzantine rules which lead to unintended results. We do not get taxed the same based on income. Even the rules of what constitutes income are complicated.

Our current tax code is the product of some social engineering, some legitimate means to fund the government, and a whole bunch of corruption in the process.

True. Our system is not as simple and ideal as I may have made it sound. There are plenty of loopholes, breaks and ways around the system that make it unfair. We need to clean up those loopholes and correct the system so the richest in our country can't continue to get richer and richer while the middle class get poorer and poorer.

Tax shelters are a thing of the past.
Tax deductions for children help everyone
Write off of mortgage interest help the less wealthy afford homes....and are invariably offset by the real estate taxes they have to pay
Tax deferred investments are income that are ultimately taxed.

I am curious what loopholes exist that you are referring to.

The major one I was referring to is capital gains and the fact that its taxed at a lower rate than income.

 

[kwc57]

Yes. IMHO, the progressive tax scale is fair.

The problem isn't taxes, it spending. We need to force Congress to balance the budget.

So you think people should be treated differently based on the money they make rather than being treated equal before the law...

How is that at all consistant with the idea that all men are created equal?

Yep I think people should be taxed based on their income level.

Who ever says taxes need to conform with the ideals of equality?

I think men should be paid more based on having a dick. See how that works?

 

[bripat9643]

Here comes the concrete thinker. I would be surprised that someone can't grasp what I meant, but it's you, so........

I grasp exactly what you meant, that's why I said it was idiotic. There are no taxes that people don't pay. They all come out of someone's pocket. You said our system "taxes dollars, not people." What part didn't I understand?

 

[Jarhead]

True. Our system is not as simple and ideal as I may have made it sound. There are plenty of loopholes, breaks and ways around the system that make it unfair. We need to clean up those loopholes and correct the system so the richest in our country can't continue to get richer and richer while the middle class get poorer and poorer.

Tax shelters are a thing of the past.
Tax deductions for children help everyone
Write off of mortgage interest help the less wealthy afford homes....and are invariably offset by the real estate taxes they have to pay
Tax deferred investments are income that are ultimately taxed.

I am curious what loopholes exist that you are referring to.

The major one I was referring to is capital gains and the fact that its taxed at a lower rate than income.

But that is not a loophole...it is a separate tax altogether and is really a tax on "unearned" income in theory..........and it is available to anyone...whether they are incested in one share of IBM or a million shares of Microsoft.

 

[bripat9643]

Yep I think people should be taxed based on their income level.

Who ever says taxes need to conform with the ideals of equality?

I think men should be paid more based on having a dick. See how that works?

Your plan makes more sense than his.

 

[RDD_1210]

Here comes the concrete thinker. I would be surprised that someone can't grasp what I meant, but it's you, so........

I grasp exactly what you meant, that's why I said it was idiotic. There are no taxes that people don't pay. They all come out of someone's pocket. You said our system "taxes dollars, not people." What part didn't I understand?

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

[RDD_1210]

Tax shelters are a thing of the past.
Tax deductions for children help everyone
Write off of mortgage interest help the less wealthy afford homes....and are invariably offset by the real estate taxes they have to pay
Tax deferred investments are income that are ultimately taxed.

I am curious what loopholes exist that you are referring to.

The major one I was referring to is capital gains and the fact that its taxed at a lower rate than income.

But that is not a loophole...it is a separate tax altogether and is really a tax on "unearned" income in theory..........and it is available to anyone...whether they are incested in one share of IBM or a million shares of Microsoft.

It's a loophole in that many of the wealthy derive their income in this manner, it's why Warren Buffet is able to have a lower overall tax rate than his secretary.

 

[kwc57]

Here comes the concrete thinker. I would be surprised that someone can't grasp what I meant, but it's you, so........

I grasp exactly what you meant, that's why I said it was idiotic. There are no taxes that people don't pay. They all come out of someone's pocket. You said our system "taxes dollars, not people." What part didn't I understand?

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

Yet the left doesn't talk about taxing the dollar. They talk about taxing those evil, greedy, rich, 1% bastards who are stealing wealth from the average American paying their "fair share". You know, the 1% who pay 43% of federal taxes while 47% of the remaining 99% pay nothing.

 

[Jarhead]

The major one I was referring to is capital gains and the fact that its taxed at a lower rate than income.

But that is not a loophole...it is a separate tax altogether and is really a tax on "unearned" income in theory..........and it is available to anyone...whether they are incested in one share of IBM or a million shares of Microsoft.

It's a loophole in that many of the wealthy derive their income in this manner, it's why Warren Buffet is able to have a lower overall tax rate than his secretary.

They can only do that if they are business owners and do not take a "distribution" from the company....but if they take a distribution, that is taxed at the normal income tax rate.

It is really not a loophole. If the owner opts NOT to take a distribution, then he/she is reinvesting his/her profits into the company...and not taking it out as cash.

 

[bripat9643]

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

All you're saying is that an income tax is not a capitation tax. No duh? Thanks for providing no useful information to the discussion.

You still haven't explained why it's just for one person to pay a higher rate on his income than another.

I could conceive of a tax that was graduated according to the amount of melanin in your skin. You might claim it discriminates against black people, but using your logic I would just say that it doesn't tax black people, but the melanin in your skin.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

It only makes sense to people who have had a lobotomy.

 

[RDD_1210]

I grasp exactly what you meant, that's why I said it was idiotic. There are no taxes that people don't pay. They all come out of someone's pocket. You said our system "taxes dollars, not people." What part didn't I understand?

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

Yet the left doesn't talk about taxing the dollar. They talk about taxing those evil, greedy, rich, 1% bastards who are stealing wealth from the average American paying their "fair share". You know, the 1% who pay 43% of federal taxes while 47% of the remaining 99% pay nothing.

Actually they do...the plans call for taxing incomes of over 1 million dollars, not specific people. The legislation never says we want to tax, Bill Gates or Ruport Murdoch, etc, specifically.

 

[RDD_1210]

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

All you're saying is that an income tax is not a capitation tax. No duh? Thanks for providing no useful information to the discussion.

You still haven't explained why it's just for one person to pay a higher rate on his income than another.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

It only makes sense to people who have had a lobotomy.

I'm glad you understand now. I expected you to insult me once you finally understood what I mean, so thanks for that.

I tried to discuss with you before about why a flat tax would hurt the lowest earners but you ignored my question. Did you not understand that one either? I really can't hold your hand through every post here. At some point, you're going to have to figure these things out on your own.

 

[asterism]

Everyone is treated the same under a progressive system. We both get taxed the same on our 10,000th dollar earned, we get taxed the same amount of our 100,000 dollar earned and we get taxed the same on our 1,000,000 dollar earned. Seems equal to me.

Actually, that's not true. The tax code is full of deliberate carve outs and byzantine rules which lead to unintended results. We do not get taxed the same based on income. Even the rules of what constitutes income are complicated.

Our current tax code is the product of some social engineering, some legitimate means to fund the government, and a whole bunch of corruption in the process.

True. Our system is not as simple and ideal as I may have made it sound. There are plenty of loopholes, breaks and ways around the system that make it unfair. We need to clean up those loopholes and correct the system so the richest in our country can't continue to get richer and richer while the middle class get poorer and poorer.

I agree on the clean up but I disagree on your reason. The tax code ought to be used to properly fund government operations as determined by the voters in this country, not to regulate income.

 

[bripat9643]

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

All you're saying is that an income tax is not a capitation tax. No duh? Thanks for providing no useful information to the discussion.

You still haven't explained why it's just for one person to pay a higher rate on his income than another.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

It only makes sense to people who have had a lobotomy.

I'm glad you understand now. I expected you to insult me once you finally understood what I mean, so thanks for that.

I tried to discuss with you before about why a flat tax would hurt the lowest earners but you ignored my question. Did you not understand that one either? I really can't hold your hand through every post here. At some point, you're going to have to figure these things out on your own.

You don't like being insulted, but you never fail to use that condescending tone whenever you disagree with someone. That's why I seldom treat leftists with respect: they are all such colossal hypocrites.

WE were discussing how it's just for one person to pay a higher rate on his income than another, not whether a flat tax hurts low wage earners. However, one consideration you continually ignore is that every flat tax proposal exempts income up to a certain point. Normally that point is well above the poverty line, so none of that actual flat tax proposals would hurt low wage earners. That would still not be paying any additional tax.

 

[asterism]

True. Our system is not as simple and ideal as I may have made it sound. There are plenty of loopholes, breaks and ways around the system that make it unfair. We need to clean up those loopholes and correct the system so the richest in our country can't continue to get richer and richer while the middle class get poorer and poorer.

Tax shelters are a thing of the past.
Tax deductions for children help everyone
Write off of mortgage interest help the less wealthy afford homes....and are invariably offset by the real estate taxes they have to pay
Tax deferred investments are income that are ultimately taxed.

I am curious what loopholes exist that you are referring to.

The major one I was referring to is capital gains and the fact that its taxed at a lower rate than income.

Only at the personal level, not the corporate level. Capital gains plus corporate income tax is actually quite high.

 

[asterism]

Here comes the concrete thinker. I would be surprised that someone can't grasp what I meant, but it's you, so........

I grasp exactly what you meant, that's why I said it was idiotic. There are no taxes that people don't pay. They all come out of someone's pocket. You said our system "taxes dollars, not people." What part didn't I understand?

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

That's not true. The rate is attached to the activity, not the dollar. Hence GE paid zero in corporate taxes but I paid taxes in years where I lost money.

That's the problem with using the tax code to execute social engineering. It underfunds the government and does nothing to help those worst off.

 

[asterism]

The major one I was referring to is capital gains and the fact that its taxed at a lower rate than income.

But that is not a loophole...it is a separate tax altogether and is really a tax on "unearned" income in theory..........and it is available to anyone...whether they are incested in one share of IBM or a million shares of Microsoft.

It's a loophole in that many of the wealthy derive their income in this manner, it's why Warren Buffet is able to have a lower overall tax rate than his secretary.

Buffett pays a lower rate than his secretary because he can afford to manipulate his income. If you removed the "loophole" as you call it he would just use some other means to accomplish the same end. Also, it's not necessarily bad that he pays a 17% rate on his personal income. If that rate doubled would he continue the same economic activity? Would the government receive more funding as a result?

 

[asterism]

LOL. It went completely over your head. I'll give this one more try....

Our system taxes dollars in that...it doesn't care who earns the money, but if anyone earns x dollars, they are paying a certain percentage. If you earn more one year, and less the next year, the amount you pay will change because the rate is attached to the dollars, not the person.

If the rate was attached to the person, you could earn a million dollars this year, pay X percentage of taxes and next year lets say you lose your job, go broke and make nothing, you would still be paying the same amount because the rate is attached to you, not the dollars. That's not how our system is, thankfully.

Of course taxes come out of someones pocket, that's not at all what I was referring to. Whether you agree with this or not, I hope this makes sense now, but I'm not holding my breath.

Yet the left doesn't talk about taxing the dollar. They talk about taxing those evil, greedy, rich, 1% bastards who are stealing wealth from the average American paying their "fair share". You know, the 1% who pay 43% of federal taxes while 47% of the remaining 99% pay nothing.

Actually they do...the plans call for taxing incomes of over 1 million dollars, not specific people. The legislation never says we want to tax, Bill Gates or Ruport Murdoch, etc, specifically.

The Alternative Minimum Tax started out as a "millionaires tax." How has that worked out?

 

[RDD_1210]

All you're saying is that an income tax is not a capitation tax. No duh? Thanks for providing no useful information to the discussion.

You still haven't explained why it's just for one person to pay a higher rate on his income than another.



It only makes sense to people who have had a lobotomy.

I'm glad you understand now. I expected you to insult me once you finally understood what I mean, so thanks for that.

I tried to discuss with you before about why a flat tax would hurt the lowest earners but you ignored my question. Did you not understand that one either? I really can't hold your hand through every post here. At some point, you're going to have to figure these things out on your own.

You don't like being insulted, but you never fail to use that condescending tone whenever you disagree with someone. That's why I seldom treat leftists with respect: they are all such colossal hypocrites.

WE were discussing how it's just for one person to pay a higher rate on his income than another, not whether a flat tax hurts low wage earners. However, one consideration you continually ignore is that every flat tax proposal exempts income up to a certain point. Normally that point is well above the poverty line, so none of that actual flat tax proposals would hurt low wage earners. That would still not be paying any additional tax.

Your buddy DiamondDave wouldn't have any exemption at all, even for people at or below poverty. It was he who I was talking to originally, when you decided to butt in.