Should tax policy be “fair”?

[bripat9643]

He doesn't get it, he won't ever get it. Apparently it's too tough of a concept.

You're the one who doesn't get it. The fact that you use some criteria to identify people to tax other than identifying them by name doesn't mean you aren't discriminating against them by name.

I already posted you an example that proves my point.

 

[BlindBoo]

You're mad, aren't you?

So, the left wants to redistribute wealth with taxation and that isn't an attempt to legislate some equality in wealth, right?

Not mad at all. You're just wrong. No one wants to make us "all the same". That's just your typical brainwashed bullshit that I hear all the time from the right. You ask ANY progressive on here that same question and I doubt you'd even get a positive response from ONE of them.

No one said the rich can't be so. That's just Rush Beckbaugh talking to your ignorant ass.

And that's always the lefts excuse for denying what they really are. Believe it or night most people on the right don't get weekly marching orders from Beck or Limbaugh. Do you see me accusing you of being a Michael Moore or Paul Krugman parrott?

The left wants equal outcomes. How do I know that? Look at the policies they push for. Giving more and more to the poor and taking more and more from the rich. Are you really trying to deny that? How can such policies result in anything but an equally mediocre society? Freedom and safety are opposites where government is concerned. The more you you gain of one the more you lose of the other and the simple fact is liberals value security more than freedom. We can all strive for risk free lives, but keep in mind that is going to curtail the ability of anyone person to succeed much beyond another and believe it or not there are benefits to members of society defining and achieving measures of success as defined by themselves rather than government.

3% that was cut in the beginning of the Bush Presidency was paid for by loans from China. Asking the Rich to return to that sustainable level is hardly asking for more and more is it?

 

[Steelplate]

You're mad, aren't you?

So, the left wants to redistribute wealth with taxation and that isn't an attempt to legislate some equality in wealth, right?

Not mad at all. You're just wrong. No one wants to make us "all the same". That's just your typical brainwashed bullshit that I hear all the time from the right. You ask ANY progressive on here that same question and I doubt you'd even get a positive response from ONE of them.

No one said the rich can't be so. That's just Rush Beckbaugh talking to your ignorant ass.

And that's always the lefts excuse for denying what they really are. Believe it or night most people on the right don't get weekly marching orders from Beck or Limbaugh. Do you see me accusing you of being a Michael Moore or Paul Krugman parrott?

The left wants equal outcomes. How do I know that? Look at the policies they push for. Giving more and more for the poor and taking more and more from the rich. Are you really trying to deny that? How can such policies result in anything but an equally mediocre society? Freedom and safety are opposites where government is concerned. The more you you gain of one the more you lose of the other and the simple fact is liberals value security more than freedom. We can all strive for risk free lives, but keep in mind that is going to curtail the ability of anyone person to succeed much beyond another and believe it or not there are benefits to members of society defining and achieving measures of success as defined by themselves rather than government.

No... we just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work... adjusted for inflation and cost of living. Simple as that. Unfortunately... the only people that get to decide what that fair day's pay is... is the people who don't want to give a fair day's pay. You even want MORE of the same... you applaud every time everyday workers lose their right to organize. You applaud every time the jobs go overseas.... because it's "their right" to do that. You applaud the gross tax evasion that those same entities are allowed to commit because "they are just trying to keep what is theirs". All hail the Plutocracy! Fuck the country, fuck the shrinking Middle Class, fuck the elderly, fuck the kids and most of all... fuck the poor. The ONLY people you feel are worthy of anything are the rich. Everyone else can go scratch their asses.

I don't give a flying fuck how much other people have... but when a vast number of the people in this country can barely afford to keep a roof over their heads, their families fed and pay their monthly utilities, then you see reports on how the rich keep hauling money in at a record pace... well, if you can't see the fucked up nature of that... then you are too indoctrinated to even debate with.

Finally... the left's excuse for "denying what they are"? What... are you going to throw the "M" word out? I am not a fuckin' Marxist... that's more of your brainwashed propaganda against the vast majority of our population... you know... the people who do the wealthy's dirty work and get shit on at every turn?

 

[RDD_1210]

Not if Boeing opts to make pencil erasers instead....or have a bad year and gross less than 10 billion a year.

I believe THAT is the point RDD is making.

The tax wouldnt be on Boeing...it would be on any company that fits the criteria.

Don't be stupid. Of course it's a tax on Beoing. A federal court ruled exactly that when the state of Washington tried to impose exactly such a tax.

That's like saying I don't have to pay income tax if I want to starve in some cave.

That has to be one of the most idiotic arguments ever posted on this board.

NOT IF BOEING OPTS TO CHANGE THEIR BUSINESS MODEL and no longer be in the aerospace industry.

Regarding the proposed million dollar earner tax
A million dollar earner is taxed as a million dollar earner ONLY when he has an income of a million dollars or more. The following year he makes only 900K? He ios no longer being taxed as one earning a million bucks.

Now...I agree with your senmtiments about a tax on those earning a million bucks or more...

But I cant figure out why you cant see the point RDD and I are making.

Ha! Told you! LOL. He actually can't comprehend this concept. Classic concrete thinker. My brother is one, so I am familiar but he's got a brain injury so I can understand why. Not sure what BriPats excuse is.

 

[RDD_1210]

He doesn't get it, he won't ever get it. Apparently it's too tough of a concept.

You're the one who doesn't get it. The fact that you use some criteria to identify people to tax other than identifying them by name doesn't mean you aren't discriminating against them by name.

I already posted you an example that proves my point.

Not some criteria....Income.

Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[percysunshine]

Tax policy should not be fair. No one can agree on the definition of 'fair'. The government should just tax those who can't do anything about it. That would be anyone with an addiction (booze,gambling,sex, tobacco,reality TV audiences...etc) and all left handed people named 'Doug'.

 

[RDD_1210]

Tax policy should not be fair. No one can agree on the definition of 'fair'. The government should just tax those who can't do anything about it. That would be anyone with an addiction (booze,gambling,sex, tobacco,reality TV audiences...etc) and all left handed people named 'Doug'.

Why do you hate left handed people?! You Righty!

 

[Jarhead]

Not mad at all. You're just wrong. No one wants to make us "all the same". That's just your typical brainwashed bullshit that I hear all the time from the right. You ask ANY progressive on here that same question and I doubt you'd even get a positive response from ONE of them.

No one said the rich can't be so. That's just Rush Beckbaugh talking to your ignorant ass.

And that's always the lefts excuse for denying what they really are. Believe it or night most people on the right don't get weekly marching orders from Beck or Limbaugh. Do you see me accusing you of being a Michael Moore or Paul Krugman parrott?

The left wants equal outcomes. How do I know that? Look at the policies they push for. Giving more and more for the poor and taking more and more from the rich. Are you really trying to deny that? How can such policies result in anything but an equally mediocre society? Freedom and safety are opposites where government is concerned. The more you you gain of one the more you lose of the other and the simple fact is liberals value security more than freedom. We can all strive for risk free lives, but keep in mind that is going to curtail the ability of anyone person to succeed much beyond another and believe it or not there are benefits to members of society defining and achieving measures of success as defined by themselves rather than government.

No... we just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work... adjusted for inflation and cost of living. Simple as that. Unfortunately... the only people that get to decide what that fair day's pay is... is the people who don't want to give a fair day's pay. wrong. Work ethic makes that decisionYou even want MORE of the same... you applaud every time everyday workers lose their right to organize.correct becuase we are seeing how unions protect those with the least acceptable work etyhic at the expense of those with the best possible work ethic You applaud every time the jobs go overseas.... because it's "their right" to do that. wrong...we applaud America as a land of freedom of choices You applaud the gross tax evasion that those same entities are allowed to commit because "they are just trying to keep what is theirs"I never applauyd anyone who breaks the law.. All hail the Plutocracy! Fuck the country, fuck the shrinking Middle Class, fuck the elderly, fuck the kids and most of all... fuck the poor. I dont know man...I look at the poor in the US and I gotta tell ya...let them see what the poor live like in any other country and I bet they wouldnt be complaining.The ONLY people you feel are worthy of anything are the rich. Everyone else can go scratch their asses.

I don't give a flying fuck how much other people haveIt seems quite apparent that is ALL you care about... but when a vast number of the people in this country can barely afford to keep a roof over their heads, really? Where? Sure, things are tight right now.....but you see an ever growing homeless situation happening? How many people do you hear about starving to death????their families fed and pay their monthly utilities, then you see reports on how the rich keep hauling money in at a record pace... well, if you can't see the fucked up nature of that... all talking points..and it is making you sound foolishthen you are too indoctrinated to even debate with.

Finally... the left's excuse for "denying what they are"? What... are you going to throw the "M" word out? I am not a fuckin' Marxist... that's more of your brainwashed propaganda against the vast majority of our population... you know... the people who do the wealthy's dirty work and get shit on at every turn?

wow...an entire post of talking points.

They got ya hooked.

 

[Contumacious]

Tax shelters are a thing of the past.
Tax deductions for children help everyone
Write off of mortgage interest help the less wealthy afford homes....and are invariably offset by the real estate taxes they have to pay
Tax deferred investments are income that are ultimately taxed.

I am curious what loopholes exist that you are referring to.

asterism has explained it very well but I would add ...

People still seem to think this is about INCOME tax. Its not. Never has been.

Ultimate loophole of all time is that WEALTH is taxed at a much lower rate than income. Ultra-wealthy hide wealth and therefore pay no tax on it.

GET IT?

You are aware that "wealth" as opposed to income has already been taxed when it WAS income, correct?

The US can not operate a nice welfare/warfare state state with that attitude!!!!!!!!

.

 

[Foxfyre]

I disagree. Taxes can be entirely fair by assessing the same user fee to everybody who uses a service or product or government program.

If we go the income route, a tax can be entirely fair by assessing the same proportional percentage to ALL income regardless of socioeconomic standing.

The only way taxes will be 'fair' is when they are not used to control, discipline, or manipulate people and/or the economy. Taxes should be collected to run the NECESSARY functions of government and for nothing else.

 

[percysunshine]

The US tax code is 70,000 pages and counting. The only way to be fair, in an unbiased way, is to start randomly deleting pages until it gets under 10,000 pages. If this means that the tax credits for transvestite Llama golf caddies is eliminated...so be it.

 

[Foxfyre]

The US tax code is 70,000 pages and counting. The only way to be fair, in an unbiased way, is to start randomly deleting pages until it gets under 10,000 pages. If this means that the tax credits for transvestite Llama golf caddies is eliminated...so be it.

Certainly the tax codes needs no more words than the U.S. Constitution. It should spell out that all who earn income above say the standard personal exemption for members of the household will pay X percentage of that income in taxes. No distinction should be made for rich, poor, party affiliation, or anything else. You earn above X and you pay X percentage in taxes period.

And it needs to spell out what is income:
Wages/commissions
Profits
Gambling winnings
Gifts above a certain amount
Etc.

And the government should once each quarter post what all the collected taxes were spent on and that should not include anything other than what is necessary to perform the constitutional functions of government.

 

[dblack]

I think one problem is we have two radically different notions about what it means for tax policy to be 'fair'. I think most of us can agree that there should be some attempt to distribute the tax burden equitably. We might disagree on what that means exactly - ranging from an equal 'head tax' on one end to a progressive income tax on the other.

To me, the real problem is when the focus isn't on distributing the tax burden fairly, but instead attempts to address issues of unfairness in society at large. Then we get into the game of picking and choosing favored classes of people and rewarding or punishing them via the tax code.

 

[kwc57]

Not mad at all. You're just wrong. No one wants to make us "all the same". That's just your typical brainwashed bullshit that I hear all the time from the right. You ask ANY progressive on here that same question and I doubt you'd even get a positive response from ONE of them.

No one said the rich can't be so. That's just Rush Beckbaugh talking to your ignorant ass.

And that's always the lefts excuse for denying what they really are. Believe it or night most people on the right don't get weekly marching orders from Beck or Limbaugh. Do you see me accusing you of being a Michael Moore or Paul Krugman parrott?

The left wants equal outcomes. How do I know that? Look at the policies they push for. Giving more and more for the poor and taking more and more from the rich. Are you really trying to deny that? How can such policies result in anything but an equally mediocre society? Freedom and safety are opposites where government is concerned. The more you you gain of one the more you lose of the other and the simple fact is liberals value security more than freedom. We can all strive for risk free lives, but keep in mind that is going to curtail the ability of anyone person to succeed much beyond another and believe it or not there are benefits to members of society defining and achieving measures of success as defined by themselves rather than government.

No... we just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work... adjusted for inflation and cost of living. Simple as that. Unfortunately... the only people that get to decide what that fair day's pay is... is the people who don't want to give a fair day's pay. You even want MORE of the same... you applaud every time everyday workers lose their right to organize. You applaud every time the jobs go overseas.... because it's "their right" to do that. You applaud the gross tax evasion that those same entities are allowed to commit because "they are just trying to keep what is theirs". All hail the Plutocracy! Fuck the country, fuck the shrinking Middle Class, fuck the elderly, fuck the kids and most of all... fuck the poor. The ONLY people you feel are worthy of anything are the rich. Everyone else can go scratch their asses.

I don't give a flying fuck how much other people have... but when a vast number of the people in this country can barely afford to keep a roof over their heads, their families fed and pay their monthly utilities, then you see reports on how the rich keep hauling money in at a record pace... well, if you can't see the fucked up nature of that... then you are too indoctrinated to even debate with.

Finally... the left's excuse for "denying what they are"? What... are you going to throw the "M" word out? I am not a fuckin' Marxist... that's more of your brainwashed propaganda against the vast majority of our population... you know... the people who do the wealthy's dirty work and get shit on at every turn?

Really? Care to back up your "vast number"? From where I sit, the vast number of people aren't holed up in some shanty eating shoe leather. I'm in a city with over a million people in the greater metro area. The Occupy folks are camped out a block from my downtown office. The most I've ever seen at one time is about a dozen people. You'd think that if the "vast number" are as poor off as you would have us believe, they'd be swelling the ranks of the folks championing them, but they aren't. Why? They are at work putting a roof over their family's head and living life.

Look, you want to talk about fucked up, propaganda and indoctrination, you need to can that class warfare bullshit like, "the people who do the wealthy's dirty work and get shit on at every turn" if YOU want to be taken seriously.

 

[kwc57]

He doesn't get it, he won't ever get it. Apparently it's too tough of a concept.

You're the one who doesn't get it. The fact that you use some criteria to identify people to tax other than identifying them by name doesn't mean you aren't discriminating against them by name.

I already posted you an example that proves my point.

Not some criteria....Income.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Does it really matter whether you name them by individual name or simply by demographic?

View attachment 16431

 

[percysunshine]

There just are not enough left handed guys named 'Doug' to cause much of a ruckus. Tax them at 100%.

 

[bripat9643]

NOT IF BOEING OPTS TO CHANGE THEIR BUSINESS MODEL and no longer be in the aerospace industry.

So if a business stops doing exactly what it was created to do, then it's not the target of the tax? That's like saying if I commit suicide, I won't have to pay income taxes, so it's not really mandatory to pay. How idiotic can you get?

Regarding the proposed million dollar earner tax
A million dollar earner is taxed as a million dollar earner ONLY when he has an income of a million dollars or more. The following year he makes only 900K? He ios no longer being taxed as one earning a million bucks.

Irrelevant. What you're saying is that it doesn't matter of the government confiscated his property last year if they don't confiscate the rest of it this year. You can pretty much condone anything on that basis.

Now...I agree with your senmtiments about a tax on those earning a million bucks or more...

But I cant figure out why you cant see the point RDD and I are making.

because it's a non point. All you're saying is that an income tax is not a capitation tax.

 

[bripat9643]

He doesn't get it, he won't ever get it. Apparently it's too tough of a concept.

You're the one who doesn't get it. The fact that you use some criteria to identify people to tax other than identifying them by name doesn't mean you aren't discriminating against them by name.

I already posted you an example that proves my point.

Not some criteria....Income.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It doesn't matter whether it's income or the color of their skin, it's still discrimination.

What if the government placed a tax on people who couldn't speak English? All you leftist turds would be howling about that, wouldn't you? Yet, to avoid it, all you have to do is learn English. How is that any different in nature than a graduated income tax?

 

[Steelplate]

And that's always the lefts excuse for denying what they really are. Believe it or night most people on the right don't get weekly marching orders from Beck or Limbaugh. Do you see me accusing you of being a Michael Moore or Paul Krugman parrott?

The left wants equal outcomes. How do I know that? Look at the policies they push for. Giving more and more for the poor and taking more and more from the rich. Are you really trying to deny that? How can such policies result in anything but an equally mediocre society? Freedom and safety are opposites where government is concerned. The more you you gain of one the more you lose of the other and the simple fact is liberals value security more than freedom. We can all strive for risk free lives, but keep in mind that is going to curtail the ability of anyone person to succeed much beyond another and believe it or not there are benefits to members of society defining and achieving measures of success as defined by themselves rather than government.

No... we just want a fair day's pay for a fair day's work... adjusted for inflation and cost of living. Simple as that. Unfortunately... the only people that get to decide what that fair day's pay is... is the people who don't want to give a fair day's pay. wrong. Work ethic makes that decisionYou even want MORE of the same... you applaud every time everyday workers lose their right to organize.correct becuase we are seeing how unions protect those with the least acceptable work etyhic at the expense of those with the best possible work ethic You applaud every time the jobs go overseas.... because it's "their right" to do that. wrong...we applaud America as a land of freedom of choices You applaud the gross tax evasion that those same entities are allowed to commit because "they are just trying to keep what is theirs"I never applauyd anyone who breaks the law.. All hail the Plutocracy! Fuck the country, fuck the shrinking Middle Class, fuck the elderly, fuck the kids and most of all... fuck the poor. I dont know man...I look at the poor in the US and I gotta tell ya...let them see what the poor live like in any other country and I bet they wouldnt be complaining.The ONLY people you feel are worthy of anything are the rich. Everyone else can go scratch their asses.

I don't give a flying fuck how much other people haveIt seems quite apparent that is ALL you care about... but when a vast number of the people in this country can barely afford to keep a roof over their heads, really? Where? Sure, things are tight right now.....but you see an ever growing homeless situation happening? How many people do you hear about starving to death????their families fed and pay their monthly utilities, then you see reports on how the rich keep hauling money in at a record pace... well, if you can't see the fucked up nature of that... all talking points..and it is making you sound foolishthen you are too indoctrinated to even debate with.

Finally... the left's excuse for "denying what they are"? What... are you going to throw the "M" word out? I am not a fuckin' Marxist... that's more of your brainwashed propaganda against the vast majority of our population... you know... the people who do the wealthy's dirty work and get shit on at every turn?

wow...an entire post of talking points.

They got ya hooked.

Bull fuckin' shit. you know.. we can sit here and call each other names all night long. Work Ethic Means NOTHING when it comes to compensation. You could be the best fuckin' ditchdigger in the world... and guess what? Odds are you still aren't going to be able to raise a family on it. and before you even start... there are a hell of a lot of people out there that will never be anything more than a menial labor kind of worker.

Your problem is... you seem to think that they don't deserve a decent life in this country because they may not have the brains to get educated or the business savvy to run their own.

You are an elitist who only cares about the elite. and the only reason you are so infatuated with such a SMALL number of employees(unionized) is that the idiots on the radio tell you to be. You have not a fucking clue... not one. oh I know... next you'll be telling me how you either worked with, or was a Union member at one time and they were all jackoffs... that's just message board fodder because no one can prove it... so I don't believe it.

 

[RDD_1210]

You're the one who doesn't get it. The fact that you use some criteria to identify people to tax other than identifying them by name doesn't mean you aren't discriminating against them by name.

I already posted you an example that proves my point.

Not some criteria....Income.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It doesn't matter whether it's income or the color of their skin, it's still discrimination.

What if the government placed a tax on people who couldn't speak English? All you leftist turds would be howling about that, wouldn't you? Yet, to avoid it, all you have to do is learn English. How is that any different in nature than a graduated income tax?

Because thats basing a tax on something arbitrary. What I'm talking about is basing tax solely on dollars earned. Holy fuck you're an idiot. Serious question, whats the highest level of education you completed? And what do you do for a living?