Should Muller's investigation include Trump's financial history?

[usmbguest5318]

No. Trump says it is off limits and his 5th amendment rights should be observed.

That's an interesting notion; however, in Fisher v. United States, the SCOTUS established that government generally has a right to every citizen's testimony. One's tax returns are among that testimony because it consists of attestations taxpayers make to governments. The reason, with regard to federal matters, is that by submitting one's tax return to the IRS, the U.S. Government already has possession of that information. As long as the U.S. Government is the accuser, it is free to use any and all information already in its possession.

(There may be some administrative procedures the DoJ just go through to get returns from the DoT, but that's not an obstacle. It's little but a tee that needs crossing.)

It's also possible that Mueller may demand that Trump provide the returns himself and then compare what Trump provides with what the IRS provides. Any discrepancies, depending on their nature, could then be used to indicate a deliberate effort to obstruct justice. That would, in turn, strengthen the government's mens rea argument(s).

One's efforts to learn about and research the precedents and legal theory pertaining to the abrogation of the 5th Amendment would begin well reading either of the two following documents:

• The Fifth Amendment Does Not Protect Taxpayers From Being Forced to Produce Certain Required Records Even If The Records Are Incriminating.
• Simplifying the Subpoena Law: Taking the Firth Amendment Seriously

 

[Defiant1]

Trump's financial transactions prior to him becoming President should be off limits.

There are no allegations of anything illegal.
If there were issues that could have been brought up during the campaign, that's fine. Voters then can take the info and make their own choice.

The demoncraps are making Mueller dig up stuff so they can use it politically.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Should Muller's investigation include Trump's financial history?

Not necessarily, but possibly. It depends on what information Mueller uncovers. If his team discovers behavior that indicates there is actus rea on Trump's part, then the question will become one of whether the statute involved requires he and his team also establish mens rea and the reason for its existence. If mens rea is required, leads to it and its cause(s) may be found in Trump's tax return, in which case, the investigation should, indeed must, at the very least retrieve his tax returns along with other financial documentation that is either sworn or objectively verifiable. It's worth noting that mens rea isn't generally established by attestation (barring the Moirai's favor), but rather by a preponderance of information that immutably, or nearly so, would lead any sage, sane and reasonable person to agree it exists.

Partially agree.....However, Mueller's directive is to investigate what LEVERAGE Russia may have in both that country's meddling in our electorate affairs AND what LEVERAGE Russia may have in the obvious support found for Russia by the Trump team (such as wanting to remove the sanctions on Russia in the GOP platform at their convention.)

That possible LEVERAGE may indeed be loans and other financial dealings with Trump and his family....

Well, with what part don't you agree? There's no substantive difference between what you wrote and what I wrote aside from your remarks being specific to Trump and mine are general and written from the standpoint of how the law deals with such matters, regardless of whom may be the object of the investigation. That is the whole point of the mens rea remarks in my post.

Are you suggesting Mueller already has the reason to pursue obtaining Trump's federal tax returns? I haven't suggested that because I don't know. Mueller hasn't disclosed anything about what he's found.

 

[bendog]

I'm including on this thread the letter that appointed Muller as special counsel and the scope of Mueller directives stated in that letter.....mindful that Rosenstein IS a Trump appointee.....

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

I can't get the link to work, but it's sort of a foregone conclusion that Mueller will go after them, isn't it? I really think we will learn that there was more than just the one meeting during the campaign where the Ruskies offered help, and I suspect Team Trump really did get something out of this meeting. Putin had reasons to not want Hillary president that had nothing to do with Trump. She was going to support Ukraine, and Mantafort was a bag man for Putin's pet stooge in Ukraine going back a decade or so. So Putin's desire to not see Hillary as potus was obvious.

What was not obvious was that Team Trump was stupid enough to agree to meet with Russians when they offered their help against Hillary DURING the campaign. Once that happened, the obvious question becomes WHY DOES PUTIN WANT TRUMP PRESIDENT. It's no longer why does Putin not want Hillary.

I still can't believe they were so stupid. I mean Clinton could at least say "I was thinking with my dick, but at least I was thinking." LOL

 

[bendog]

Trump's financial transactions prior to him becoming President should be off limits.

There are no allegations of anything illegal.
If there were issues that could have been brought up during the campaign, that's fine. Voters then can take the info and make their own choice.

The demoncraps are making Mueller dig up stuff so they can use it politically.

The dems aren't making Mueller do jack shit. The gop controls the senate and the doj.

 

[easyt65]

Trump using illegally obtained material in his campaign, Trump officials meeting with the Russians to obtain secrets on Hillary, Trump offering policy concessionsThat is just what has bee reported

You are such a blatant liar.

Provide the link to evidence Trump USED any information provided to him by Russians. If toy are referring to the visit with the Russian lawyer Obama let into the country and used for his attempted sting operation, no evidence was used.

You might want to get that hypocritical LOG out of your damn eye, though, and read up on how the Clinton team reached out to the Ukraine to get dirt on Trump...and used it.


Provide me with a link to prove Trump offered concessions to Russia for help...and I am not talking about your worthless OPNION and SPECULATION, your INTERPRETATION of things. I want evidence of what really happened....evidence snowflakes like you have been unable to come up with yet.

The shit you throw up time and again would NEVER survive the 1st 5 minutes it was brought up in court, which is why you peddle your BS over and over in the court of public opinion.

I am all for Impeaching Trump...IF YOU LYING, DECEITFUL, BRAINWASHED, IGNORANT MFers CAN ACTUALLY PRODUCE ANY SOLID, LEGAL, HONEST EVIDENCE OF CRIMINAL ACTION AND WRONG DOING....AND SO FAR YOU CAN'T DO IT.

 

[easyt65]

Here's a shocker for you rabid partisan snowflakes who think I am a Republican and / or a Trump supporter, which I am neither:

I do believe Mueller's Team WILL find something now on Donald Trump.

IMO, what Mueller's team will probably eventually find will have NOTHING to do with the Russians or Obstructing. What they will find is crooked, illegal business dealings in regards t his businesses. The moment he was given permission (by WHO?) to expand his investigation into Trump's finances I knew Trump was going down, but not for collusion or Obstruction.

IMO millionaire international business moguls - especially in real estate like him - do not get to where he is by engaging in illegal activity....with the Unions, foreign nations' agents, etc... In Japan, for example, bribery is a normal way of life in doing business there. In the US, try to get past red tape without 'greasing palms'. Mueller and his lawyers will find crimes / criminal activity...but it probably will have NOTHING to do with Russia.

 

[MarkClaude]

'Should Muller's investigation include Trump's financial history?'

No, this would be the definition and perfect example of 'Fishing Expedition'.

Mueller was not originally tasked to find evidence of any wrong-doing during the course of his life. He was hired to look into Obstruction. By expanding the scope of his investigation to just about anything he wants to look at, the Democrats have just admitted they have NOTHING - they have found NO EVIDENCE of collusion or Obstruction of Justice. Having found nothing for which he was hired, they expand the scope of the investigation, to dig through anything and everything in order to find SOMETHING...ANYTHING.

Absolutely partisan and wrong. Mueller's remit is to search if there is collusion and other reasons why Russia would be able to swing Trump to do what they want.

 

[MarkClaude]

Mueller knows nothing. And this is the man you want to lead an investigation into the Presidents taxes? The man who protected the people who targeted tea party with IRS audits by doing nothing is now going to investigate a Republican President about his taxes? Mueller cannot be trusted. Listen to this and you'll see what I mean!

Robert Mueller is as crooked as a dog's hind leg. Just listen to him in this inquiry. He knows nothing. He's a bold faced liar and cannot be trusted.

This man is a trustworthy Republican. You expressed fears signal a deeper worry. What is it?

 

[MarkClaude]

Here's a shocker for you rabid partisan snowflakes who think I am a Republican and / or a Trump supporter, which I am neither:

I do believe Mueller's Team WILL find something now on Donald Trump.

IMO, what Mueller's team will probably eventually find will have NOTHING to do with the Russians or Obstructing. What they will find is crooked, illegal business dealings in regards t his businesses. The moment he was given permission (by WHO?) to expand his investigation into Trump's finances I knew Trump was going down, but not for collusion or Obstruction.

IMO millionaire international business moguls - especially in real estate like him - do not get to where he is by engaging in illegal activity....with the Unions, foreign nations' agents, etc... In Japan, for example, bribery is a normal way of life in doing business there. In the US, try to get past red tape without 'greasing palms'. Mueller and his lawyers will find crimes / criminal activity...but it probably will have NOTHING to do with Russia.

If you are right about dirty deals that could compromise him with foreign powers, then he should be forced out of office.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Mueller knows nothing. And this is the man you want to lead an investigation into the Presidents taxes? The man who protected the people who targeted tea party with IRS audits by doing nothing is now going to investigate a Republican President about his taxes? Mueller cannot be trusted. Listen to this and you'll see what I mean!

Robert Mueller is as crooked as a dog's hind leg. Just listen to him in this inquiry. He knows nothing. He's a bold faced liar and cannot be trusted.

This man is a trustworthy Republican. You expressed fears signal a deeper worry. What is it?

Trustworthy is the antithesis of what Mueller is. Call him anything you want. He's a man with a personal vendetta against our President and the sooner he is fired the better.

 

[easyt65]

Easy said:
Mueller was not originally tasked to find evidence of any wrong-doing during the course of his life.

Absolutely partisan and wrong.

So you think Mueller should be allowed to expand his investigation to find criminal activity as far back as he wants? I disagree.

I see no problem, though, with looking at finances that had anything to do with Russian transactions, though.

 

[nat4900]

Body language expert examines Mueller's body language during this questioning and proves he is a liar. Watch this:

Why should the American people trust a man who has already been exposed as a bold faced liar? A man who worked with his good friend Comey to protect the Clinton Administration tooth and nail? Answer: We shouldn't.

What does the Book of Jeremiah state about walking around "grabbing pussies" because you're a TV star??? Just asking.

 

[westwall]

I'm including on this thread the letter that appointed Muller as special counsel and the scope of Mueller directives stated in that letter.....mindful that Rosenstein IS a Trump appointee.....

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

Nope. That is a gross expansion of his original order, and leads me to believe he truly has nothing so is now willing to break laws himself in an effort to find something. Now we are entering into coup territory and that bodes ill for this Republic.

 

[nat4900]

Should Muller's investigation include Trump's financial history?

Not necessarily, but possibly. It depends on what information Mueller uncovers. If his team discovers behavior that indicates there is actus rea on Trump's part, then the question will become one of whether the statute involved requires he and his team also establish mens rea and the reason for its existence. If mens rea is required, leads to it and its cause(s) may be found in Trump's tax return, in which case, the investigation should, indeed must, at the very least retrieve his tax returns along with other financial documentation that is either sworn or objectively verifiable. It's worth noting that mens rea isn't generally established by attestation (barring the Moirai's favor), but rather by a preponderance of information that immutably, or nearly so, would lead any sage, sane and reasonable person to agree it exists.

Partially agree.....However, Mueller's directive is to investigate what LEVERAGE Russia may have in both that country's meddling in our electorate affairs AND what LEVERAGE Russia may have in the obvious support found for Russia by the Trump team (such as wanting to remove the sanctions on Russia in the GOP platform at their convention.)

That possible LEVERAGE may indeed be loans and other financial dealings with Trump and his family....

Well, with what part don't you agree? There's no substantive difference between what you wrote and what I wrote aside from your remarks being specific to Trump and mine are general and written from the standpoint of how the law deals with such matters, regardless of whom may be the object of the investigation. That is the whole point of the mens rea remarks in my post.

Are you suggesting Mueller already has the reason to pursue obtaining Trump's federal tax returns? I haven't suggested that because I don't know. Mueller hasn't disclosed anything about what he's found.

Although I am fully aware of my own limitations, I DID predict that Mueller's investigation could NOT have ever neglected a review of Trump's finance records (not just tax returns)......
Only a complete fool would deny the strange affinity that Trump and his acolytes have vis-a-vis Russia, and such an affinity MUST have a financial root.

My mistake, BTW, in stating that I partially agreed with your post...I do agree with it.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Body language expert examines Mueller's body language during this questioning and proves he is a liar. Watch this:

Why should the American people trust a man who has already been exposed as a bold faced liar? A man who worked with his good friend Comey to protect the Clinton Administration tooth and nail? Answer: We shouldn't.

What does the Book of Jeremiah state about walking around "grabbing pussies" because you're a TV star??? Just asking.

His statement was inexcusable and he confessed and apologized for it a long time ago. When can we expect a full confession from Bill and Hillary Clinton who have more blood on their hands than Jack the Ripper and never apologized to their rape victims or their families? You'll strain a gnat and swallow a camel. It's become your party signature.

 

[Reasonable]

I'm including on this thread the letter that appointed Muller as special counsel and the scope of Mueller directives stated in that letter.....mindful that Rosenstein IS a Trump appointee.....

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

Mueller just reeks professionism, character and integrity.
Everything Trump is not. No wonder he's scared shitless of Mueller.

 

[nat4900]

I'm including on this thread the letter that appointed Muller as special counsel and the scope of Mueller directives stated in that letter.....mindful that Rosenstein IS a Trump appointee.....

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

I can't get the link to work, but it's sort of a foregone conclusion that Mueller will go after them, isn't it? I really think we will learn that there was more than just the one meeting during the campaign where the Ruskies offered help, and I suspect Team Trump really did get something out of this meeting. Putin had reasons to not want Hillary president that had nothing to do with Trump. She was going to support Ukraine, and Mantafort was a bag man for Putin's pet stooge in Ukraine going back a decade or so. So Putin's desire to not see Hillary as potus was obvious.

What was not obvious was that Team Trump was stupid enough to agree to meet with Russians when they offered their help against Hillary DURING the campaign. Once that happened, the obvious question becomes WHY DOES PUTIN WANT TRUMP PRESIDENT. It's no longer why does Putin not want Hillary.

I still can't believe they were so stupid. I mean Clinton could at least say "I was thinking with my dick, but at least I was thinking." LOL

Sorry about the link.......

But, YES......If its a foregone conclusion that Russia wanted Trump to win (and not Hillary) can be partially explained by Putin's hatred of Hillary (she de-legitimized Putin's last election)......But a more important conclusion arises as to WHY the Kremlin would have wanted Trump and risked quite a bit to get that job done through its very effective hacking and the ensuing propaganda......

 

[Reasonable]

Body language expert examines Mueller's body language during this questioning and proves he is a liar. Watch this:

Why should the American people trust a man who has already been exposed as a bold faced liar? A man who worked with his good friend Comey to protect the Clinton Administration tooth and nail? Answer: We shouldn't.

What does the Book of Jeremiah state about walking around "grabbing pussies" because you're a TV star??? Just asking.

His statement was inexcusable and he confessed and apologized for it a long time ago. When can we expect a full confession from Bill and Hillary Clinton who have more blood on their hands than Jack the Ripper and never apologized to their rape victims or their families? You'll strain a gnat and swallow a camel. It's become your party signature.

The old Alex Jones like- conspiracy theory that the Clinton's are killers.
You so embarrass yourself..

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I'm including on this thread the letter that appointed Muller as special counsel and the scope of Mueller directives stated in that letter.....mindful that Rosenstein IS a Trump appointee.....

https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/3726381/Robert-Mueller-Special-Counsel-Russia.pdf

Mueller just reeks professionism, character and integrity.
Everything Trump is not. No wonder he's scared shitless of Mueller.

He reeks alright. He's as crooked as a dog's hind leg.