Senators call for end to anonymous, prepaid cell phones

[goldcatt]

That's only because both parties are corrupt and are no longer working for the American people.

Exactly. Hence my point about checking out the donor list for these two. Prepaid cell service is a billion dollar plus business, and using this kind of smokescreen to burden prepaid providers with new costs and red tape seems to create a competitive advantage for the giants like Verizon, etc. Food for thought.

I don't really buy that the added cost would be so burdensome to cell phone companies having to add one more bit of info to their already existing data bases.

It does to me when you consider the data collection and (hopefully) secure transmission services that would have to be implemented at the point of sale plus the (hopefully) secure systems and personnel needed to enter the data and maintain it at the corporate level. Remember most of the prepaid services aren't already set up to collect, maintain and store this data.

Then there will be a cost per transaction apart from the initial complaince costs. It won't be cheap. How much? I couldn't say, but multiply the cost per transaction even in pennies by the number of transactions in the millions, add in initial and compliance costs and it adds up.

It seems like an unnecessary burden for an unnecessary policy - and one that has so many other concerns, such as 4th Amendment questions and issues centered on security and privacy of the data.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Wrong is wrong, partisan hack.

Besides, this is a fuckup by members of both parties:

That's only because both parties are corrupt and are no longer working for the American people.

Yep. BOTH parties are corrupt. MOST politicians are on the take and in it FOR THEMSELVES.

They line their pockets with our tax dollars and create oppressive laws at our expense, all the while EXEMPTING THEMSELVES from the weight of the laws they create (health care, anyone???)

Kick all their sorry asses to the curb. The American government and polical system is broken beyond belief! It's time for new blood and its time for people who KNOW WHAT THEY'RE DOING to get in there and fix things.

We don't have time to waste on rank amateurs like Barry Soetoro.....he's destroying this country, along with all the other idgits in Congress.

Not something widely disputed. Doesn't mean the anarchy of living without rules and responsibilities is the answer.

The answer is no more "Smaller Government" than it is "Bigger Government".

The answer is "Better Government".

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Wow. Another amazing leap. ID = peeping Toms?

I'm with avg. Joe. I believe that people should have to show ID to cops, to vote, and to rent a hotel room (which is now standard in NYC). The jihadists laugh at the inability of Americans to agree on ANY method to prevent terrorism.

I supported the Patriot Act, and I will support this President with any reasonable ideas his administration comes up with to keep us safer. Sheez.

Why should I have to show ID to cops? How is that going to prevent terrorism?

Fighting terrorism is easy. The first step is to end the category error we have when we say we are fighting terror. What we are fighting is the political philosophy of Islam that demands that everyone surrender to their religion and their god. When we realize that, and focus on that, we will have a real chance to win this war. Instead, you want us to go around and make things harder on people, do something to stop what has already happened, and refuse to attack to the real problem.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Considering the fact that we couldn't have the lifestyle we've become accustomed to without using the tool we affectionately call 'government', doesn't it make sense to fight for "better" government rather than "less" government?

When it comes to something like government, sheer size matters a whole lot less than quality.

We have the lifestyle we do now in spite of, not because of, the government. I would challenge you to show me anyone that is better off, or anything that gets done better, simply because government is bigger.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Try "buying" a bank account without giving your name and address.... Anyone think allowing the sale of guns without getting a a name and number from the buyer a good idea?

There's PLENTY of precedent for asking people to register in order to use a product sold through private enterprise.

Asking people to register the phone numbers they use JUST IN CASE one of those numbers hits a list of numbers that a proven bad guy has had intercourse with is NOT asking too much.

You can get a bank account without showing anyone anything. The reason most banks, not the government, require an ID when opening an account is so that they do not give your money to someone else.

Do I think being able to buy a gun without showing ID is a good idea? Sure do, because it prevents the cops from going apeshit and arresting me for no reason.

Police act swiftly after gun purchases | DailyTidings.com

They had to release him, and give him his guns back. But why did they arrest him in the first place? Because he legally bought the guns, and showed his ID.

Asking people to register their phone numbers is a violation of the constitution. End of conversation, no matter how reasonable a few idiots might think it is. If we get to do something just in case police should be allowed to arrest people because they might commit a crime. That should do wonders for the murder rate.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Assuming your number never gets connected to a bad-guy and a warrant issued, your name will NEVER be associated with it.

Maybe this is a fundamental choice here - do we want to live as cooperating neighbors, willing to give a little for the safety of all or do we want to foment the attitude of America's youth and say "fuck you" to our fellow citizens just because we can and there's plenty of dirt to the west if my neighbors get to nosey?

I'm definitely not one to advocate the government telling me who I can or can't talk to, and I've stated before that I believe that We need a damn good (warrantable) reason for matching a name to a number (that reason alone is one to make sure it is We, The People who maintain the data base, not some private, for sale to the highest bidder on the world market corporation). But is registering your phone numbers REALLY too much to ask?

Quick poll: How many people posting on this thread currently have an unregistered, pre-paid cell phone in their pocket? I know I don't.

I already said I do, and you are not going to take it away from me. As I told you in another post, all it takes is some cop convincing a lawyer to issue a subpoena, or some fed to issue a NSL. It does not take a warrant, so your argument is based on a false assumption.

I have a question for you, when did your safety become more important then my privacy? Does my safety gove me the right to demand that you register all your online identities and post them on Facebook so everyone who has a problem with your political opinion can find out where you live?

If I clone your cell phone and use it to plan a terrorist attack, does that mean the feds can storm into your house in the middle of the night and shoot you for resisting arrest? After all, the fact that I sued your cell phone proves you are guilty, even though I cloned it.

This will do nothing to accomplish the goals you think it will, and it will only serve to take away some of your rights. Believe it or not, you do not have the right to give up your rights.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you don't trust your government, you have but 3 and only 3 options:

-Change governments by moving.
-Work to improve the government you have.
-Whine about it unproductively and in general terms, offering no solutions whatsoever.

Choosing lawlessness over rules because of abuse of those rules, both real and perceived, gives more power away than it preserves, IMHO.

I choose option 2, and part of that is keeping people like you who are incapable of thinking of consequences from making a complete fool of me.

You are thoe one who seems to be choosing option 3, by whining that the government is not doing enough. Get out and do it yourself, then you won't have to wait for the government do it.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The goal is to give one more common sense tool to law enforcement They can't profile; they can't bug mosques and churches, they can't interrogate without an attorney, etc. What else can they do? Honestly?

We are subjected to searches at airports and amusement parks. There are surveillance cameras in dept stores and city streets. Many people are fingerprinted for jobs. We must show I D to write a check or rent a car. They are all invasions of privacy that most Americans accept.. This law is no different. In fact, it prob won't affect 99 percent of us.

You would be surprised. If only 1% of the population was using prepaid cell phones they would not be on sale everywhere in the country. Every major carrier offers a prepaid option, and the fastest growing carrier in the US offers only a prepaid service.

About New York - Bill Would Bar Anonymous Prepaid Cellphones - NYTimes.com

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Would a bomb being detonated with one of these untraceable devices be a necessary reason? I guess we'll just have to wait and see.

We've been lucky. I fear our luck may be running out.

Remember 9/11.

No, because they detonate them with cloned traceable ones also. You are acting like this is their only option to communicate or detonate their IEDs. It isn't, it is just the one that gets the publicity. Should we outlaw axes because some people use them to commit murder?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I don't really buy that the added cost would be so burdensome to cell phone companies having to add one more bit of info to their already existing data bases.

Go down to the 7-11 and look at the Tracphones, then think about giving that clerk there your ID in order to buy one, and giving him your phone number at the same time. The cost will go up for Tracphine because they will have to add a name to their records, that include nothing more than the number, and it will go up for the store, because they will have to add the infrastructure in all of their stores to pass that information on to Tracphone. They will have to do this for all of the different complanies whose phones they sell. If you think this is not going to add to the cost of those phones, you have no understanding of how economics works.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Considering the fact that we couldn't have the lifestyle we've become accustomed to without using the tool we affectionately call 'government', doesn't it make sense to fight for "better" government rather than "less" government?

When it comes to something like government, sheer size matters a whole lot less than quality.

We have the lifestyle we do now in spite of, not because of, the government. I would challenge you to show me anyone that is better off, or anything that gets done better, simply because government is bigger.

I never said bigger was better - I said better was better. The sooner We, The People start taking responsibility for what our government does or does not do, the sooner we can expect to see 'better' government.

The whole point to 'America' is that bitching about the government is bitching about me....

And bitching about you. And bitching about my mamma and your mamma.​

Problem: Bad guys are using the fact that pre-paid cell phones are anonymous to aid them in their quest to be "bad guys".

Proposed solution: Require ID and registration for all cell phone numbers issued.

My response: Not too much to ask.

Am I with the majority? Unknown - this discussion seems to be split / Tell you what: you write your congress-critter if it means that much to you and I'll write mine - then let's see how the paid representatives who ran it up the flag-pole fare in getting support for the idea.

Care for a beer?

 

[AVG-JOE]

Assuming your number never gets connected to a bad-guy and a warrant issued, your name will NEVER be associated with it.

Maybe this is a fundamental choice here - do we want to live as cooperating neighbors, willing to give a little for the safety of all or do we want to foment the attitude of America's youth and say "fuck you" to our fellow citizens just because we can and there's plenty of dirt to the west if my neighbors get to nosey?

I'm definitely not one to advocate the government telling me who I can or can't talk to, and I've stated before that I believe that We need a damn good (warrantable) reason for matching a name to a number (that reason alone is one to make sure it is We, The People who maintain the data base, not some private, for sale to the highest bidder on the world market corporation). But is registering your phone numbers REALLY too much to ask?

Quick poll: How many people posting on this thread currently have an unregistered, pre-paid cell phone in their pocket? I know I don't.

I already said I do, and you are not going to take it away from me. As I told you in another post, all it takes is some cop convincing a lawyer to issue a subpoena, or some fed to issue a NSL. It does not take a warrant, so your argument is based on a false assumption.

I have a question for you, when did your safety become more important then my privacy? Does my safety gove me the right to demand that you register all your online identities and post them on Facebook so everyone who has a problem with your political opinion can find out where you live?

If I clone your cell phone and use it to plan a terrorist attack, does that mean the feds can storm into your house in the middle of the night and shoot you for resisting arrest? After all, the fact that I sued your cell phone proves you are guilty, even though I cloned it.

This will do nothing to accomplish the goals you think it will, and it will only serve to take away some of your rights. Believe it or not, you do not have the right to give up your rights.

Whatever QW...

Your opinion has been duly noted. The rest of your speculation and fear-mongering may be your best sales pitch for "vote NO!" but I remain of the opinion that registering prepaid cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. See you in court.

Care for a beer?

 

[AVG-JOE]

If you don't trust your government, you have but 3 and only 3 options:

-Change governments by moving.
-Work to improve the government you have.
-Whine about it unproductively and in general terms, offering no solutions whatsoever.

Choosing lawlessness over rules because of abuse of those rules, both real and perceived, gives more power away than it preserves, IMHO.

I choose option 2, and part of that is keeping people like you who are incapable of thinking of consequences from making a complete fool of me.

You are thoe one who seems to be choosing option 3, by whining that the government is not doing enough. Get out and do it yourself, then you won't have to wait for the government do it.

You and only you can keep you from looking like a fool, Buddy - Don't try to lay that responsibility on me!

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Considering the fact that we couldn't have the lifestyle we've become accustomed to without using the tool we affectionately call 'government', doesn't it make sense to fight for "better" government rather than "less" government?

When it comes to something like government, sheer size matters a whole lot less than quality.

We have the lifestyle we do now in spite of, not because of, the government. I would challenge you to show me anyone that is better off, or anything that gets done better, simply because government is bigger.

I never said bigger was better - I said better was better. The sooner We, The People start taking responsibility for what our government does or does not do, the sooner we can expect to see 'better' government.

The whole point to 'America' is that bitching about the government is bitching about me....

And bitching about you. And bitching about my mamma and your mamma.​

Problem: Bad guys are using the fact that pre-paid cell phones are anonymous to aid them in their quest to be "bad guys".

Proposed solution: Require ID and registration for all cell phone numbers issued.

My response: Not too much to ask.

Am I with the majority? Unknown - this discussion seems to be split / Tell you what: you write your congress-critter if it means that much to you and I'll write mine - then let's see how the paid representatives who ran it up the flag-pole fare in getting support for the idea.

Care for a beer?

The best government is the one that stays out of the way the most. Take a look at history, the more rules a government has, the worse the people under it are. There are no exceptions to this rule.

I do recognize the need for a government to do some things, but one thing it does not need to do is make up rules to fix situations that are not going to be fixed by those rules. We do not need to show an ID to get a landline, internet service, mail service, a regular cell phone, or even vote, yet it is suddenly a good idea to burden a significant portion of the population with showing one to get an unpaid phone.

And, because it does not inconvenience you, you do not have a problem with it. Yet you sit in front of your computer and try to convince me that I am wrong, and that I have to explain why I am against it, if I am innocent of any wrong doing, implying that only criminals and terrorists care about privacy.

If we start chipping away at rights because it doesn't seem that bad, where do we stop? Is it unreasonable to search people who are walking down the street carrying a backpack? After all, that backpack could have a bomb in it, and very few people actually carry a backpack. How many people carry a briefcase? Perhaps we could add them to the list.

A better government is one that is smart enough to realize, before it is to late, that something will not work. A batter government is one that realizes, and tells the people it serves, that we cannot be kept safe from everything. One that tells people that doing stupid things does not makes us safe, we are safe when we do smart things.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Whatever QW...

Your opinion has been duly noted. The rest of your speculation and fear-mongering may be your best sales pitch for "vote NO!" but I remain of the opinion that registering prepaid cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. See you in court.

Care for a beer?

You are the one saying that it is a good thing because it could, maybe, possibly, help catch a terrorist, and I am fear mongering.

Nice try.

 

[AVG-JOE]

Whatever QW...

Your opinion has been duly noted. The rest of your speculation and fear-mongering may be your best sales pitch for "vote NO!" but I remain of the opinion that registering prepaid cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. See you in court.

Care for a beer?

You are the one saying that it is a good thing because it could, maybe, possibly, help catch a terrorist, and I am fear mongering.

Nice try.

Go back through my posts - I never once used the term 'terrorist'. I use 'bad-guy' a lot, but never terrorist. The criminals in my minds eye when thinking about this subject are actually the ones involved in human trafficking... I saw a special on Discovery about them, they use pre-paid cells to help avoid detection.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

FYI

Fear mongering is what people accused Bush of when he wanted to pass the Patriot Act. It is what the Senators who are sponsoring this bill are doing when they say we need it to catch terrorists. It is what you are doing when you say we can use it to catch drug dealers and human traffickers. It is not what I am doing when I say this idea sucks, and will not do anything to prevent or solve any crimes.

 

[oreo]

Whatever QW...

Your opinion has been duly noted. The rest of your speculation and fear-mongering may be your best sales pitch for "vote NO!" but I remain of the opinion that registering prepaid cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. See you in court.

Care for a beer?

You are the one saying that it is a good thing because it could, maybe, possibly, help catch a terrorist, and I am fear mongering.

Nice try.

Go back through my posts - I never once used the term 'terrorist'. I use 'bad-guy' a lot, but never terrorist. The criminals in my minds eye when thinking about this subject are actually the ones involved in human trafficking... I saw a special on Discovery about them, they use pre-paid cells to help avoid detection.

The point is criminals/terrorists or bad guys will ALWAYS find a way of not getting detected-- Requiring I.D's to buy a pre-paid cell phone is NOT going to stop them--it's just going to add to the confusion.

It equates to the same as registering guns. It doesn't stop criminals from using them--they just steal them from someone else. The same thing would happen with cell phones.

 

[AVG-JOE]

FYI

Fear mongering is what people accused Bush of when he wanted to pass the Patriot Act. It is what the Senators who are sponsoring this bill are doing when they say we need it to catch terrorists. It is what you are doing when you say we can use it to catch drug dealers and human traffickers. It is not what I am doing when I say this idea sucks, and will not do anything to prevent or solve any crimes.

You are correct when you say that Bush gets the FM prize for his use of fear to over step boundaries that We must be diligent in making sure that no government should cross. You are also correct when you say that merely stating your very valid opinion that this idea 'sucks' because of privacy and cost concerns is not fear mongering.

However, when you say things like...

The best government is the one that stays out of the way the most. Take a look at history, the more rules a government has, the worse the people under it are. There are no exceptions to this rule.

I do recognize the need for a government to do some things, but one thing it does not need to do is make up rules to fix situations that are not going to be fixed by those rules. We do not need to show an ID to get a landline, internet service, mail service, a regular cell phone, or even vote, yet it is suddenly a good idea to burden a significant portion of the population with showing one to get an unpaid phone.

And, because it does not inconvenience you, you do not have a problem with it. Yet you sit in front of your computer and try to convince me that I am wrong, and that I have to explain why I am against it, if I am innocent of any wrong doing, implying that only criminals and terrorists care about privacy.

If we start chipping away at rights because it doesn't seem that bad, where do we stop? Is it unreasonable to search people who are walking down the street carrying a backpack? After all, that backpack could have a bomb in it, and very few people actually carry a backpack. How many people carry a briefcase? Perhaps we could add them to the list.

A better government is one that is smart enough to realize, before it is to late, that something will not work. A batter government is one that realizes, and tells the people it serves, that we cannot be kept safe from everything. One that tells people that doing stupid things does not makes us safe, we are safe when we do smart things.

You have classic fear mongering.

As for your statement above in red, I never solicited argument from you or anyone else. I read what you and others write only in the attempt to see if my opinion could use some tweaking based on the opinions of my neighbors. I stated my humble opinion that registering cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. I've read posts by you and others, goldcatt presents a well presented argument, and my opinion remains that it is not too much for We to ask of us.

The next step is to see how our differing opinions jive with overall public opinion... if most people agree with me, that it would not too much to ask, expect to see registration of cell phones become law - Can you handle that without going postal?

If, on the other hand, most people agree with you that it would be an inconvenient and costly invasion of privacy, expect to see the idea shot down in our governmental process. You can also expect to see me not really care if it does, especially if public opinion is overwhelmingly against it.

Sure, we have a LOT of rules here in America, this average Joe bitches often on this board about many specifically, and in the sheer size of the rule book...

I'd still rather live here and now than in some 12th century kingdom where the guy who could afford the most thugs to enforce the whims of his desire owned your ass and the ass of the pretty little girl you affectionately call 'daughter'. Any history book will tell you that the kings of that era in Western 'Civilization' had only a few harsh rules for their subjects to follow and pretty much none for themselves prior to the signing of the Magna Carta.

Be careful when you make sweeping statements like: Take a look at history, the more rules a government has, the worse the people under it are. There are no exceptions to this rule.

 

[AVG-JOE]

You are the one saying that it is a good thing because it could, maybe, possibly, help catch a terrorist, and I am fear mongering.

Nice try.

Go back through my posts - I never once used the term 'terrorist'. I use 'bad-guy' a lot, but never terrorist. The criminals in my minds eye when thinking about this subject are actually the ones involved in human trafficking... I saw a special on Discovery about them, they use pre-paid cells to help avoid detection.

The point is criminals/terrorists or bad guys will ALWAYS find a way of not getting detected-- Requiring I.D's to buy a pre-paid cell phone is NOT going to stop them--it's just going to add to the confusion.

It equates to the same as registering guns. It doesn't stop criminals from using them--they just steal them from someone else. The same thing would happen with cell phones.

I never thought I'd see the day when quitting and sticking our privacy-paranoid heads in the sand would be considered a solution here in America.