Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature currently requires accessing the site using the built-in Safari browser.
Just because a case can be made that a particular invasion of privacy "might" help law enforcement catch "bad guys" doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
Just because a case can be made that a particular invasion of privacy "might" help law enforcement catch "bad guys" doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
Doing away with the 4th and 5th Amendments altogether might help catch bad guys, right? I remember reading somewhere in this thread somebody lamenting the fact that police can't interrogate a suspect without a lawyer present (totally wrong, BTW).
Not that showing ID for a prepaid cell is equivalent to slapping down the 4th or 5th, but the argument would be the same - Be Afraid! If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about! I'd rather ask if I did nothing wrong, why should I have to submit to it?
Just because a case can be made that a particular invasion of privacy "might" help law enforcement catch "bad guys" doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
Doing away with the 4th and 5th Amendments altogether might help catch bad guys, right? I remember reading somewhere in this thread somebody lamenting the fact that police can't interrogate a suspect without a lawyer present (totally wrong, BTW).
Not that showing ID for a prepaid cell is equivalent to slapping down the 4th or 5th, but the argument would be the same - Be Afraid! If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about! I'd rather ask if I did nothing wrong, why should I have to submit to it?
The same could be said of searching infants and grannies at the airport.
Some people fear big bad govt tracking their library cards and some fear big bad terrorists blowing up on airplanes. I'm in the latter group.
Good discussion.
You have classic fear mongering.
As for your statement above in red, I never solicited argument from you or anyone else. I read what you and others write only in the attempt to see if my opinion could use some tweaking based on the opinions of my neighbors. I stated my humble opinion that registering cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. I've read posts by you and others, goldcatt presents a well presented argument, and my opinion remains that it is not too much for We to ask of us.
The next step is to see how our differing opinions jive with overall public opinion... if most people agree with me, that it would not too much to ask, expect to see registration of cell phones become law - Can you handle that without going postal?
If, on the other hand, most people agree with you that it would be an inconvenient and costly invasion of privacy, expect to see the idea shot down in our governmental process. You can also expect to see me not really care if it does, especially if public opinion is overwhelmingly against it.
Sure, we have a LOT of rules here in America, this average Joe bitches often on this board about many specifically, and in the sheer size of the rule book...
I'd still rather live here and now than in some 12th century kingdom where the guy who could afford the most thugs to enforce the whims of his desire owned your ass and the ass of the pretty little girl you affectionately call 'daughter'. Any history book will tell you that the kings of that era in Western 'Civilization' had only a few harsh rules for their subjects to follow and pretty much none for themselves prior to the signing of the Magna Carta.
Be careful when you make sweeping statements like: Take a look at history, the more rules a government has, the worse the people under it are. There are no exceptions to this rule.
Sad isn't it? And maybe even if it doesn't prevent a crime or a terrorist attack, it could help them catch the bad guys after the fact. Hopefully there are people in power who aren't living with their heads in the sand. Heard there may be some Somalian bad guys "lost" in Texas. (I know. Fearmongering again...)
Just because a case can be made that a particular invasion of privacy "might" help law enforcement catch "bad guys" doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
Doing away with the 4th and 5th Amendments altogether might help catch bad guys, right? I remember reading somewhere in this thread somebody lamenting the fact that police can't interrogate a suspect without a lawyer present (totally wrong, BTW).
Not that showing ID for a prepaid cell is equivalent to slapping down the 4th or 5th, but the argument would be the same - Be Afraid! If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about! I'd rather ask if I did nothing wrong, why should I have to submit to it?
Are you all really THAT paranoid of the rest of us? Do you not trust Due Process?
Just because a case can be made that a particular invasion of privacy "might" help law enforcement catch "bad guys" doesn't necessarily make it a good idea.
Doing away with the 4th and 5th Amendments altogether might help catch bad guys, right? I remember reading somewhere in this thread somebody lamenting the fact that police can't interrogate a suspect without a lawyer present (totally wrong, BTW).
Not that showing ID for a prepaid cell is equivalent to slapping down the 4th or 5th, but the argument would be the same - Be Afraid! If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about! I'd rather ask if I did nothing wrong, why should I have to submit to it?
Because We can't tell by your gender or the color of your skin or by the way you dress or by your eye color or by your politics or by ...... whether or not you are capable of using the anonymity of a pre-paid cell phone to break the law.
It's not like anyone is being asked for something they don't share with strangers both public and private many times during any given month - Lighten up! It's not a pelvic exam!
It all boils down to Due Process - if you don't trust the concept, America may not be the best place to raise your family. If enough of you don't trust Due Process as it applies in this country, we have much bigger political fish to fry around here than whether or not to have folks register their pre-paid cell phone numbers.
Are you all really THAT paranoid of the rest of us? Do you not trust Due Process?
You have classic fear mongering.
As for your statement above in red, I never solicited argument from you or anyone else. I read what you and others write only in the attempt to see if my opinion could use some tweaking based on the opinions of my neighbors. I stated my humble opinion that registering cell phone numbers is not too much to ask. I've read posts by you and others, goldcatt presents a well presented argument, and my opinion remains that it is not too much for We to ask of us.
The next step is to see how our differing opinions jive with overall public opinion... if most people agree with me, that it would not too much to ask, expect to see registration of cell phones become law - Can you handle that without going postal?
If, on the other hand, most people agree with you that it would be an inconvenient and costly invasion of privacy, expect to see the idea shot down in our governmental process. You can also expect to see me not really care if it does, especially if public opinion is overwhelmingly against it.
Sure, we have a LOT of rules here in America, this average Joe bitches often on this board about many specifically, and in the sheer size of the rule book...
I'd still rather live here and now than in some 12th century kingdom where the guy who could afford the most thugs to enforce the whims of his desire owned your ass and the ass of the pretty little girl you affectionately call 'daughter'. Any history book will tell you that the kings of that era in Western 'Civilization' had only a few harsh rules for their subjects to follow and pretty much none for themselves prior to the signing of the Magna Carta.
Be careful when you make sweeping statements like: Take a look at history, the more rules a government has, the worse the people under it are. There are no exceptions to this rule.
It is fearmongering to point to the past and the fact that stuff like this does not work, and it only makes things worse? If that is the case, I proudly claim the title, and duties, of a fearmongerer.
I am truly interested in your concept of how a representative democracy is supposed to work. If the majority of the people thought it was a good idea to go back to that 12th century kingdom, and that it would not be to much to ask you to submit to that guy with the thugs, would you accept it, or fight it? Would you go postal if you thought everyone else was totally fucked up, or would you accept it because We asked it of us?
The government of the United States is not there to protect the majority form the minority, it is there to protect the minority from the tyranny of the majority.
If you think my statements about history are wrong, you are welcome to disprove them.
Are you all really THAT paranoid of the rest of us? Do you not trust Due Process?
Where is the due process in asking that I prove who I am in order to talk to someone?
Doing away with the 4th and 5th Amendments altogether might help catch bad guys, right? I remember reading somewhere in this thread somebody lamenting the fact that police can't interrogate a suspect without a lawyer present (totally wrong, BTW).
Not that showing ID for a prepaid cell is equivalent to slapping down the 4th or 5th, but the argument would be the same - Be Afraid! If you did nothing wrong you have nothing to worry about! I'd rather ask if I did nothing wrong, why should I have to submit to it?
Because We can't tell by your gender or the color of your skin or by the way you dress or by your eye color or by your politics or by ...... whether or not you are capable of using the anonymity of a pre-paid cell phone to break the law.
It's not like anyone is being asked for something they don't share with strangers both public and private many times during any given month - Lighten up! It's not a pelvic exam!
It all boils down to Due Process - if you don't trust the concept, America may not be the best place to raise your family. If enough of you don't trust Due Process as it applies in this country, we have much bigger political fish to fry around here than whether or not to have folks register their pre-paid cell phone numbers.
Are you all really THAT paranoid of the rest of us? Do you not trust Due Process?
The problem isn't DP, it's primarily practical policy considerations and my stubborn civil libertarian refusal to support a law that basically targets and immediately suspects people who choose a prepaid cell phone contract as criminals and treats them accordingly.
I'm with mani on this one, show me the necessity and I'll support it. But so far I haven't seen anything that says it's necessary. There are lots of things law enforcement would "like". But this law will place significant financial and logistical burdens on the service providers and their customers as well as create yet another repository of personal data that can be sold or hacked. No, thank you.
What needs to be proven is not a preference but an actual necessity. Being afraid is not enough. And FYI what some folks refer to as "criminals' rights" actually exist to protect those of us who have nothing to hide.
Now about that pelvic exam, was that a bona fide offer or are you just teasing me again?
Because We can't tell by your gender or the color of your skin or by the way you dress or by your eye color or by your politics or by ...... whether or not you are capable of using the anonymity of a pre-paid cell phone to break the law.
It's not like anyone is being asked for something they don't share with strangers both public and private many times during any given month - Lighten up! It's not a pelvic exam!
It all boils down to Due Process - if you don't trust the concept, America may not be the best place to raise your family. If enough of you don't trust Due Process as it applies in this country, we have much bigger political fish to fry around here than whether or not to have folks register their pre-paid cell phone numbers.
Are you all really THAT paranoid of the rest of us? Do you not trust Due Process?
The problem isn't DP, it's primarily practical policy considerations and my stubborn civil libertarian refusal to support a law that basically targets and immediately suspects people who choose a prepaid cell phone contract as criminals and treats them accordingly.
I'm with mani on this one, show me the necessity and I'll support it. But so far I haven't seen anything that says it's necessary. There are lots of things law enforcement would "like". But this law will place significant financial and logistical burdens on the service providers and their customers as well as create yet another repository of personal data that can be sold or hacked. No, thank you.
What needs to be proven is not a preference but an actual necessity. Being afraid is not enough. And FYI what some folks refer to as "criminals' rights" actually exist to protect those of us who have nothing to hide.
Now about that pelvic exam, was that a bona fide offer or are you just teasing me again?
* Big Kiss *
You are absolutely right that great care must be taken when trading privacy for security, I've said before that things like random listening to phone calls is asking way too much - I still think that registering pre-paid cell phone numbers is not too much to ask.
Hell, any pre-paid cell phone purchased with a credit card is pretty damned traceable already, so what we're really talking about is the folks who insist, for what ever reason, on paying for the phone with ca$h.
Are you all really THAT paranoid of the rest of us? Do you not trust Due Process?
Where is the due process in asking that I prove who I am in order to talk to someone?
Please tell me that you don't really think anybody cares who you talk with.....
You don't have to show ID to call your girlfriend, but it might be damn handy for the police to be able to match a name to your number if your girlfriend is stopped driving a truckload of explosives on the I-10.
The problem isn't DP, it's primarily practical policy considerations and my stubborn civil libertarian refusal to support a law that basically targets and immediately suspects people who choose a prepaid cell phone contract as criminals and treats them accordingly.
I'm with mani on this one, show me the necessity and I'll support it. But so far I haven't seen anything that says it's necessary. There are lots of things law enforcement would "like". But this law will place significant financial and logistical burdens on the service providers and their customers as well as create yet another repository of personal data that can be sold or hacked. No, thank you.
What needs to be proven is not a preference but an actual necessity. Being afraid is not enough. And FYI what some folks refer to as "criminals' rights" actually exist to protect those of us who have nothing to hide.
Now about that pelvic exam, was that a bona fide offer or are you just teasing me again?
* Big Kiss *
You are absolutely right that great care must be taken when trading privacy for security, I've said before that things like random listening to phone calls is asking way too much - I still think that registering pre-paid cell phone numbers is not too much to ask.
Hell, any pre-paid cell phone purchased with a credit card is pretty damned traceable already, so what we're really talking about is the folks who insist, for what ever reason, on paying for the phone with ca$h.
And what's wrong with insisting on paying cash? Is there something inherently wrong with cash on the barrel head, no commitment, no strings?
Now that sounds like a weekend in Vegas.
I'm looking at everything involved in creating, maintaining and protecting that registry and IMO yes, it is too much to ask without demonstrating necessity rather than preference.
