Secession

[WorldAHope]

You haven't addressed the part about the intense political hatred and what benefit you see in sticking together. I see the country in a downward spiral don't you.. you didn't support President Bush, and I don't like the present regime. what good would staying together do given the intense level of hatred. in short why would you want to keep Republicans around knowing how much you hate and abhor everthing they stand for? Don't be a hypocrite..

How can one political party secede from the union ?
A Political party is not a governmental entity. It is not a state with geographic boundaries.

Do you suggest the USA does what India and Pakistan did after they separated from British rule in 1947, physically segregate Republicans from Democrats, make 2 seperate nations ?
..all because....YOU guys are so-o-o-o unhappy now.....'cos you lost all that politcal power...the large majority of American voters don't like the incompetent and corrupt GOP running things in Washington DC anymore.....boo hoo hoo. "We wanna GO !!1 boo ho hoo.."

Do you realize How pathetic and lame and childish you guys sound ?
Like you have lost all affinity for the USA, now that voters have cast their ballots.

IF you are a person who loves America, you will stick around and actually WANT to help clean up the MESS the GOP and Bush made.
If not, than you make it plain: you despise the entire idea of democracy in the United States of America.

Maybe you'd be happier somewhere else.

Why do you want to keep Republicans around? You don't support them at all.

Republicans have made themselves nearly obsolete by being stubborn and inflexible.
And now, add immature and pouty.

I live in a very rural mostly GOP area. I know a lot of Republicans that I truly admire and respect. They aren't whining away their lives over stupid stuff, like you seem to be. They are too busy keeping their business and family and farms and careers moving forward.
It is a small, teenytiny minority of Americans who are whining and complaining like bratty little kids.
Try coming up with positive ideas that would help improve things, anything. Shake off the pouty negative.

 

[WillowTree]

How can one political party secede from the union ?
A Political party is not a governmental entity. It is not a state with geographic boundaries.

Do you suggest the USA does what India and Pakistan did after they separated from British rule in 1947, physically segregate Republicans from Democrats, make 2 seperate nations ?
..all because....YOU guys are so-o-o-o unhappy now.....'cos you lost all that politcal power...the large majority of American voters don't like the incompetent and corrupt GOP running things in Washington DC anymore.....boo hoo hoo. "We wanna GO !!1 boo ho hoo.."

Do you realize How pathetic and lame and childish you guys sound ?
Like you have lost all affinity for the USA, now that voters have cast their ballots.

IF you are a person who loves America, you will stick around and actually WANT to help clean up the MESS the GOP and Bush made.
If not, than you make it plain: you despise the entire idea of democracy in the United States of America.

Maybe you'd be happier somewhere else.

Why do you want to keep Republicans around? You don't support them at all.

Republicans have made themselves nearly obsolete by being stubborn and inflexible.
And now, add immature and pouty.

I live in a very rural mostly GOP area. I know a lot of Republicans that I truly admire and respect. They aren't whining away their lives over stupid stuff, like you seem to be. They are too busy keeping their business and family and farms and careers moving forward.
It is a small, teenytiny minority of Americans who are whining and complaining like bratty little kids.
Try coming up with positive ideas that would help improve things, anything. Shake off the pouty negative.

try to get out of your little boxed in tunnel vision and forget about me.. What is it you like about Republicans..??? What do you support as a Republican tenet?

 

[AVG-JOE]

If any single state did seceed, you'd see an ass whoppin'. Mexico even holds itself together with it's piss ant military. Rebels have taken capitals but it never last. If a state announced this, you'd see choppers and tanks moving so damned fast your head would spin. The governors guts would be all over TV.

You are assuming that any given American leader will have the balls to order the military to shoot Americans. Our leaders don't even have the stones to properly make war on a foreign people on the other side of the planet any more, thanks to CNN, et al and public opinion.

Remember the politics that followed Nixon's Kent State mistake? And that was before cable news and the internet.

-Joe

They would no longer be Americans.

They would if they called themselves The Independent American State of Texas...

'America' refers to the continents, divided into North America, Central America and South America. Technically, all Mexicans, Canadians, Brazilians, Cubans, etc are 'Americans', even if they are not citizens of the United States.

Me? I'm an American Mutt who happens to be a United States Citizen, currently living in the State of Florida. I have also lived (with state issued ID) in Texas, Colorado, Washington, North Dakota and a few others, but my main ID is my US Passport.

-Joe

 

[AVG-JOE]

Well, since there's no precedent since the Civil War, then I'd be all for letting them go it alone and wish them luck. But since DHS's Border Control is a U.S. agency, all Texans would need a passport to drive over to Louisiana, Arkansas, Oklahoma and New Mexico, then go through customs at hubs if flying or by rail. Texans would need to apply for Green Cards in order to work in any of the other 49 states.

There are multitude of extremely SIMPLE problems with secession before they would even get to the MAJOR problems.

There are. That's true. but i dont think we have to worry about anything.

Of course not. This is just the latest in a whole stream of idiotic noise just to keep the haters riled up. Heaven Forbid they should sit back and take a deep breath and THINK.

I like you Maggie. This post is a sentiment that I truly do share with you. I don't believe that the US is going to split up, nor do I believe it should... I too would like to see people THINK and realize that the reason we should stick together is not because we 'legally' have to, but because it makes sense, and the freedoms and rules we live together under are ours to change or keep as we see fit.

The only thing that makes more sense is the same freedom to travel the world... perhaps the grandchildren of our grandchildren will enjoy such freedoms.

-Joe

 

[WorldAHope]

Why do you want to keep Republicans around? You don't support them at all.

Republicans have made themselves nearly obsolete by being stubborn and inflexible.
And now, add immature and pouty.

I live in a very rural mostly GOP area. I know a lot of Republicans that I truly admire and respect. They aren't whining away their lives over stupid stuff, like you seem to be. They are too busy keeping their business and family and farms and careers moving forward.
It is a small, teenytiny minority of Americans who are whining and complaining like bratty little kids.
Try coming up with positive ideas that would help improve things, anything. Shake off the pouty negative.

try to get out of your little boxed in tunnel vision and forget about me.. What is it you like about Republicans..??? What do you support as a Republican tenet?

Honesty and Ethics in government.
Self reliance and Self accountability.
Fiscal conservatism, antiWasteful spending.
Avoidance of reckless foreign entanglements.
Keep government out of regulating or interfering in citizens' personal lives (marriage, religion, sexlife, etc.)
Government not to intrude upon people's rights or privacy.
Adherence to the letter and the spirit of the law.

There is much in Libertarian ideals that I like.
The main reason the GOP is currently out of favor is because they failed MISERABLY FAILED to stick to their own ideals. Power mad and greedy and crony oriented administration will do that, and did.

The GOP leaders over the last several years violated all of the above ideals, and many many lifelong Republicans are disgusted with their party's recent failed corrupt inept leadership.
That doesn't mean those Republicans who hate what has happened no longer hold to those ideals.
Their leadership and their party left them, not the other way around. The GOP chased the moderates and centrists away to court ONLY ultra conservative base.

Like I said, stick around. Work to bring the GOP back to its core principles, expand the GOP to appeal to moderates and centrists and not be focused on dishing out to JUST one sliver of society. Do that, and America will be all ears.
For now, there is a great big mess to clean up, and the GOP leadership is playing idiotic games, as if this wasn't even their country or their elected responsibility to fix the mess.
I cannot think of any way more guaranteed to alienate the electorate than for a party to be seen as willfully obstructionist and evading effort and refusing to help during a time of national crisis.
How can so many Republicans in Washington and in other offices ignore or fail to see the stinking rotting piles left over from the Bush years ?
Republicans in REAL America see the disasters, plain as day.

Get your head UP and start making plans for the future.
Secession. Good grief, how long can one ride the Self Pity train ?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

The Constitution required 9 states to ratify it for it to go into effect, when the first 9 states ratified the Constitution the others remained independent nations. They did not get assimilated by default. North Carolina and Rhode Island remained independent for well over a year I believe, before they finally ratified the Constitution.

True...so that applies for the first 13 states, and a few other states that started out as independent entities like Texas and Hawaii,

But what about Oklahoma and Alaska. They were federally-governed, federally-owned territories, not sovereign nations. They had two choices: remain a US-owned territory, or become a state in the United States. They weren't forced to become states, but they also didn't have any choice but be part of the United States.

They're a state now, which means they enjoy the same rights that every other state has. No state can have less or more rights than another.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Secession is not un-American, secession is as American as apple pie or baseball.

That might be one of the most retarded things I've ever seen written.

kind of like the sociopath who says "I need to kill you to save you"

damn...

Well mostly that was intended to be funny, but your analogy to the sociopath doesn't fit whatsoever. I'm not sure why you zeroed in on that part of the post while ignoring the actual argument that I made in favor of secession.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Secession is absolutely legal. The Texas v. White decision by the Supreme Court has no basis in the Constitution, and therefore, as stated by Thomas Jefferson in the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798, is "unauthoritative, void, and of no force."

“The future inhabitants of the Atlantic & Mississippi States will be our sons. We leave them in distinct but bordering establishments. We think we see their happiness in their union, & we wish it. Events may prove it otherwise; and if they see their interest in separation, why should we take side with our Atlantic rather than our Mississippi descendants? It is the elder and the younger son differing. God bless them both, & keep them in union, if it be for their good, but separate them, if it be better.” – Thomas Jefferson, letter to John C. Breckinridge, August 12, 1803

Was Thomas Jefferson being anti-American for saying this? Of course not. Self-government is the principle the 13 colonies fought the Revolutionary War over and the basis for our entire form of government.

Furthermore, what is our Declaration of Independence but a declaration of secession from England? Do you honestly believe the founders would have put their hard-fought liberty into the hands of another all-powerful government? And let us not forget that we have a federal government, not a national government.

“The indissoluble link of union between the people of the several states of this confederated nation is, after all, not in the right but in the heart. If the day should come (may Heaven avert it!) when the affections of the people of these States shall be alienated from each other; when the fraternal spirit shall give way to cold indifference, or collision of interests shall fester into hatred, the bands of political associations will not long hold together parties no longer attracted by the magnetism of conciliated interests or kindly sympathies; and far better will it be for the people of the disunited states to part in friendship from each other, than to be held together by constraint.” – John Quincy Adams

Also, let's take a look at the actual Constitution.

"The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people." - 10th Amendment, United States Constitution

Secession is no where mentioned in the Constitution. It is not prohibited to the states, and the power to stop secession is not delegated to the United States government. Therefore, we can conclude that the right of secession is reserved to the States.

We can also look at history.

The Constitution required 9 states to ratify it for it to go into effect, when the first 9 states ratified the Constitution the others remained independent nations. They did not get assimilated by default. North Carolina and Rhode Island remained independent for well over a year I believe, before they finally ratified the Constitution.

In 1914 the New England states held what is called the Hartford Convention to discuss whether they should secede from the Union, as they were not pleased with Jefferson or Madison administrations. They ultimately decided not to do so, but nobody questioned their right to secede.

Secession is not un-American, secession is as American as apple pie or baseball.

So you would return to the original Constitution sans all amendments? You would thus need to interpret the words "We The People," because in the original Constitution, "We The People" didn't include women nor white males who didn't own property and, of course, African Americans.

The amendments to the Constitution were ratified each for a specific reason. The Supreme Court was established in Article III of the original Constitution specifically to argue for those amendments.

I'm not sure how you got this idea out of my post.

 

[WorldAHope]

Secession is not un-American, secession is as American as apple pie or baseball.

That might be one of the most retarded things I've ever seen written.

kind of like the sociopath who says "I need to kill you to save you"

damn...

Well mostly that was intended to be funny, but your analogy to the sociopath doesn't fit whatsoever. I'm not sure why you zeroed in on that part of the post while ignoring the actual argument that I made in favor of secession.

On what legal grounds would secession from the union be considered in the legislature or executive of any state ?
What transgressions have been committed against any state or its inhabitants that would justify even mentioning overrulling all the hard work of our forefathers in building this republic ?

 

[Red Dawn]

jesus christ, the insanity of the rightwing is on full parade.

Seccession? Get a fucking grip, you're never going to get more than 1% of fringe lunatics of any state to agree that. Is that who you proudly asscociate with? The 1% fringe lunatics? We fought a fucking war, and 600,000 americans died to answer this stupid fucking question. No you can't succeed, and if you do you're nothing but a rebel and a traitor.

If you don't like living under a Democratic adminstration, MOVE. That's what some loony lefties did, when they moved to canada in 2004 after bush was reelected.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

That might be one of the most retarded things I've ever seen written.

kind of like the sociopath who says "I need to kill you to save you"

damn...

Well mostly that was intended to be funny, but your analogy to the sociopath doesn't fit whatsoever. I'm not sure why you zeroed in on that part of the post while ignoring the actual argument that I made in favor of secession.

On what legal grounds would secession from the union be considered in the legislature or executive of any state ?
What transgressions have been committed against any state or its inhabitants that would justify even mentioning overrulling all the hard work of our forefathers in building this republic ?

The federal government spending obscene amounts of money for "stimulus," and then forcing the states to take it and spend it on what the federal government demands they spend it on might be a pretty good reason. The government continually usurping powers it was never meant to have under the Constitution might be another good reason. As to what they'd actually cite as their reason I obviously can't predict the future. However, if that state feels it would be better off outside of this Union then they have every right to leave it.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

We fought a fucking war, and 600,000 americans died to answer this stupid fucking question. No you can't succeed, and if you do you're nothing but a rebel and a traitor.

Except that unnecessary war didn't answer anything. The Constitution remains the law of the land and secession is clearly legal under the Constitution.

 

[Gunny]

Not a bad idea... insane.

again, a bunch of sore losers whining.

we tolerated bush for eight years... no one said "we don't want to be americans anymore".

i am so losing patience with this silliness.

Incorrect. You whined about Bush for 8 years. There was nothing but intolerance for him.
But y'all weren't sore losers whining, right?

I'm losing my patience too. Bush was a gem to tolerate compared to the crap I've seen lately.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

In response to Texas Gov. Rick Perry's defense of states’ rights, State Rep. Jim Dunnam (D-Waco) says secession is anti-American. He even threw in a gratuitous race card to try to vilify the governor.

It should go without saying that the United States of America began with a series of thirteen secessions. The founding document of the American union is itself a collective "declaration of independence" that affirms unilateral secession to be part of our inalienable right of liberty. The U.S. Constitution (to which Rep. Dunnam has pledged an oath) affirms that the federal government's authority is both "enumerated" and "delegated," while the powers of the states are "reserved."

In other words, according to the Constitution, the states are the boss of the union, not the other way around. This is why leaders of the Texas state legislature, backed eloquently by Gov. Rick Perry, are reminding the bloated federal apparatus of its proper place as servant of the states. And Texas is not alone.

Is Secession 'Anti-American'? by Larry L. Beane II

 

[WillowTree]

jesus christ, the insanity of the rightwing is on full parade.

Seccession? Get a fucking grip, you're never going to get more than 1% of fringe lunatics of any state to agree that. Is that who you proudly asscociate with? The 1% fringe lunatics? We fought a fucking war, and 600,000 americans died to answer this stupid fucking question. No you can't succeed, and if you do you're nothing but a rebel and a traitor.

If you don't like living under a Democratic adminstration, MOVE. That's what some loony lefties did, when they moved to canada in 2004 after bush was reelected.

as much as you seem to hate right wing nutters why wouldn't you celebrate secession.. this is a big country.. governing half of it wouldn't be as hard as governing the whole.. wouldn't it be nice to live with people who agree with you 100% of the time? Course then I don't know who you'd take you aggression out on..

 

[MaggieMae]

jesus christ, the insanity of the rightwing is on full parade.

Seccession? Get a fucking grip, you're never going to get more than 1% of fringe lunatics of any state to agree that. Is that who you proudly asscociate with? The 1% fringe lunatics? We fought a fucking war, and 600,000 americans died to answer this stupid fucking question. No you can't succeed, and if you do you're nothing but a rebel and a traitor.

If you don't like living under a Democratic adminstration, MOVE. That's what some loony lefties did, when they moved to canada in 2004 after bush was reelected.

Probably average Texans wouldn't be so revved up if their own governor hadn't been out there at one of the tax rallies calling for secession himself. Hopefully there's still a few left, either native Texans or transplants, who wonder where Rick Perry left his brains.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

[youtube]jvliy8rEJDQ[/youtube]

 

[Evangelical]

Can people please post the most important part of the videos they present, not all of us have fucking speakers OK?

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Can people please post the most important part of the videos they present, not all of us have fucking speakers OK?

Dr. Paul essentially re-affirmed that we became a nation through secession, that secession is a constitutional right, and that secession is not treason.

 

[Evangelical]

Can people please post the most important part of the videos they present, not all of us have fucking speakers OK?

Dr. Paul essentially re-affirmed that we became a nation through secession, that secession is a constitutional right, and that secession is not treason.

I disliked Ron Paul's idealistic assault on the Fed's, but since the action of the Fed I've sided more with his idealism, the Fed must go down; and Congress must reclaim the monetary policy.

If congress weren't so busy messing with our lives, they could spend more time coming up with sound monetary policy that reflected their constituent's needs and not the needs of New York Bankers.

Ron Paul's a good guy, probably would be voted president of the New-Confederacy without ever having to put his name in the ballot heh.