San Bernardino School Shooting

[Iceweasel]

From what Ive read, it seems like a typical case of domestic violence. Dont know if there was any kind of restraining order, but she was afraid of him.
Too bad there were no metal detectors at the school, thats the only thing that might have prevent this.

Domestic violence doesn't usually end in murder, especially multiple. Maybe she stayed in an abusive relationship too long. I have a hard time believing he was a nice guy then suddenly went full bore ahole. Lots of gals go from one abusive relationship to another.

Probably her fault....

Not what I said cartoon boy. Pop your head out of your ass and see the real world for once.

 

[Iceweasel]

From what Ive read, it seems like a typical case of domestic violence. Dont know if there was any kind of restraining order, but she was afraid of him.
Too bad there were no metal detectors at the school, thats the only thing that might have prevent this.

Domestic violence doesn't usually end in murder, especially multiple. Maybe she stayed in an abusive relationship too long. I have a hard time believing he was a nice guy then suddenly went full bore ahole. Lots of gals go from one abusive relationship to another.

She was asking for it, obviously...

Here's another retard. Why does it need to be explained to libs like you were 3 years old? Wait, I don't need to, go fuck yourself.

 

[OldLady]

What a cliché. Some moron shoots someone and people start blaming guns LOL.
Oy vey

WTF are they supposed to blame?
When I was a baby, mom gave me oj for the first time and I was screaming with a belly ache in an hour. She said my dad walked the floor with me saying "Goddamned orange juice, there, there, okay, goddamned orange juice" for hours. It's a normal reaction if you're not a libertarian.

ummm the people?
The gun is an inanimate object. To blame it is the perfect example of a fallacy.
If you got hit by a drunk driver, do you think I am going to blame the driver, or the car?

That is a highly stupid argument. Guns have only one purpose, _(insert your choice of name I won't call you here)___. Guns are to kill people. So yes, I can blame them for the fact that they were used to kill someone. Duh.

And animals. Its not the gun fault some loon uses it to kill someone. Especially innocent children.
Do you think I am going to blame the driver or the car?
If a child somehow gets its hand on its fathers gun collection and shoots itself, are you blaming the gun or the irresponsible parents that deserve prison time?

Its not the gun fault some loon uses it to kill someone.
That quote just entered my Hall of Stupid quotes list. Hate to criticize you, but c'mon, TN.

 

[TNHarley]

What a cliché. Some moron shoots someone and people start blaming guns LOL.
Oy vey

WTF are they supposed to blame?
When I was a baby, mom gave me oj for the first time and I was screaming with a belly ache in an hour. She said my dad walked the floor with me saying "Goddamned orange juice, there, there, okay, goddamned orange juice" for hours. It's a normal reaction if you're not a libertarian.

ummm the people?
The gun is an inanimate object. To blame it is the perfect example of a fallacy.
If you got hit by a drunk driver, do you think I am going to blame the driver, or the car?

That is a highly stupid argument. Guns have only one purpose, _(insert your choice of name I won't call you here)___. Guns are to kill people. So yes, I can blame them for the fact that they were used to kill someone. Duh.

And animals. Its not the gun fault some loon uses it to kill someone. Especially innocent children.
Do you think I am going to blame the driver or the car?
If a child somehow gets its hand on its fathers gun collection and shoots itself, are you blaming the gun or the irresponsible parents that deserve prison time?

Its not the gun fault some loon uses it to kill someone.
That quote just entered my Hall of Stupid quotes list. Hate to criticize you, but c'mon, TN.

But also correct

 

[OldLady]

[

That is a highly stupid argument. Guns have only one purpose, _(insert your choice of name I won't call you here)___. Guns are to kill people. So yes, I can blame them for the fact that they were used to kill someone. Duh.

Now THAT is a truly stupid claim.

You think everything is stupid. Find a new adjective.

 

[OldLady]

Shooting at school.

Ok...what runs through your mind first? And be honest.

Sadness?
Disgust it happened again?
After that, who and why?
After the who and why, what pops in your head?

And there you are. My OP.

What popped in my head? I learned this morning that an eight year old died.
What I thought to myself is that a lot of mothers gave their kids a hug and said "I love you" to their kids before they walked out the door for the school bus this morning. And they meant it. We get so busy we forget to appreciate how special our children are to us. This kind of thing reminds everyone.

 

[OldLady]

What scenario never happens, Mike?

C'mon, you know. What you posted about us all shooting each other for no reason. I have owned guns since I was a young man, and never used them to shoot anyone. The vast majority of gun owners are like that as well. We only hear about the crimes committed with guns from the media. Also, if you really wanted to find out, you can find info that will show you just how many times guns are used each year to protect people from criminals. It's a very large amount, but you must ask yourself why the media never runs these stories?

From where I stand, there is never a good reason to shoot anyone (unless someone is trying to shoot you first). That would cut down on 99% of the gun homicides in this country. Do you think that man today who shot his wife in front of her classroom of kids had a good reason? Do you think those kids in Chicago who shoot other kids from their cars have a good reason? Of course you don't. It happens all the time, unfortunately.

It seems like you went off on a tangent there. I didn't say anything about having a good reason. I simply said that the media only shows the criminal use of guns and that there are a lot of legal self defense uses of guns that you never hear about. Check that out. And if we could get rid of the gun free zones, a lot of these crimes would not happen. You ever notice how most of them are in so called gun free zones? You would think if the laws worked, there would be no guns in a gun free zone. But since criminals by their very nature don't obey laws, those who DO obey the gun free zones are many times the victim of the law that was somehow supposed to protect them when criminals refuse to obey.

I was just trying to explain what my other post meant. I can't agree with you that more guns in more places is a good idea. We already have too many. Imagine living in a country where, like Tommy's country, there were 20 some gun homicides in a year. That's because they don't have guns to shoot each other with, Mike--not good guys OR bad guys. That would be awesome, in my mind. I know you don't agree, but that's how I feel about it.

So no comment on the gun free zones and being able to defend yourself, and criminals not obey laws? Also, countries with low gun homicide rates have much higher homicide rates with other means.

You wouldn't like what I have to say.

 

[OldLady]

I've heard about this shooting...I'm pretty sure it was the usual maniac.
Unfortunately there's nothing the law can do to prevent things like that I guess...

This was a little different. It wasn't a maniac. It was a gangsta who decided that if he couldn't have his new wife, no one would. She was a teacher at the school. Had she worked at McDonalds, he would have shot her there. Cedric Anderson was a convicted felon with ties to the 9th street Crips. His wife Karen Elaine Smith had been married to him less than 6 months and there were many domestic violence calls already.

I don't understand why women are attracted to gang bangers. A teacher SHOULD be smarter than that.

All women should be "smarter" than to stay when her partner is abusive. But when she leaves is the most dangerous time, the time when she is most likely to be killed.
After a caseworker in another part of the state was shot dead in her driveway by her ex, we all underwent DV training for helping our coworkers if we suspected abuse. It is ironic but it happens. And it is a VERY difficult thing to do. Women seldom fess up and leave, just like that. Some of them die.

 

[airplanemechanic]

Bully related? The OP is an idiot. Since when does a 3rd grader grab a gun and shoot up his school because someone teased him about his shoes?

Whenever the stupid on this forum gets as thick as I think it can get, it gets another inch thicker.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

The shooter had a history of domestic violence, weapons, and drug charges. Yet, he was carrying and used a .357. Why did he have access to a gun? Don't know, but I am sure that the NRA is content with whatever reason.

You were doing great until you went stone-cold stupid with that comment.

Well, let's see. The guy had a history of domestic violence, drug charges, and weapons charges. We don't know why he still had access to a gun, but here are some of the things that may have prevented that from happening. Which of these would have met with NRA approval?

1. The court could have taken his gun away from him, provided that they knew he owned one, which they would have, if gun registration had been required.
2. If he had bought it from a private party, the sale would have not happened, if background checks would have been required for all gun purchases.


Or, he could have stolen the gun, which I doubt very much, since this apparently was an act of passion, which usually is done with whatever weapon is at hand.

Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee.

That noise you just heard was your argument blowing up in your face! Doesn't that sting just a little?

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

 

[MrShangles]

Too many murder suicide scenarios happening lately.

Domestic violence is big in this area, too. But let's arm more Americans--it's our right to shoot each other at will.

If the teacher had been armed none of this would have happened.

I believe you're joking, aren't you Tommy? Many of our elementary schools keep their doors locked now. You have to get buzzed in. It's sad, but it keeps infuriated crazies from coming in and committing mayhem.

Locked doors, did they work this time?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Vandalshandle]

The shooter had a history of domestic violence, weapons, and drug charges. Yet, he was carrying and used a .357. Why did he have access to a gun? Don't know, but I am sure that the NRA is content with whatever reason.

You were doing great until you went stone-cold stupid with that comment.

Well, let's see. The guy had a history of domestic violence, drug charges, and weapons charges. We don't know why he still had access to a gun, but here are some of the things that may have prevented that from happening. Which of these would have met with NRA approval?

1. The court could have taken his gun away from him, provided that they knew he owned one, which they would have, if gun registration had been required.
2. If he had bought it from a private party, the sale would have not happened, if background checks would have been required for all gun purchases.


Or, he could have stolen the gun, which I doubt very much, since this apparently was an act of passion, which usually is done with whatever weapon is at hand.

Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee.

That noise you just heard was your argument blowing up in your face! Doesn't that sting just a little?

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

You were doing great until you went stone-cold stupid with that comment.

Well, let's see. The guy had a history of domestic violence, drug charges, and weapons charges. We don't know why he still had access to a gun, but here are some of the things that may have prevented that from happening. Which of these would have met with NRA approval?

1. The court could have taken his gun away from him, provided that they knew he owned one, which they would have, if gun registration had been required.
2. If he had bought it from a private party, the sale would have not happened, if background checks would have been required for all gun purchases.


Or, he could have stolen the gun, which I doubt very much, since this apparently was an act of passion, which usually is done with whatever weapon is at hand.

Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee.

That noise you just heard was your argument blowing up in your face! Doesn't that sting just a little?

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

 

[Vandalshandle]

Well, let's see. The guy had a history of domestic violence, drug charges, and weapons charges. We don't know why he still had access to a gun, but here are some of the things that may have prevented that from happening. Which of these would have met with NRA approval?

1. The court could have taken his gun away from him, provided that they knew he owned one, which they would have, if gun registration had been required.
2. If he had bought it from a private party, the sale would have not happened, if background checks would have been required for all gun purchases.


Or, he could have stolen the gun, which I doubt very much, since this apparently was an act of passion, which usually is done with whatever weapon is at hand.

Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee.

That noise you just heard was your argument blowing up in your face! Doesn't that sting just a little?

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

And gun registration does NOT abridge the right of gun ownership. It only tracks who has a gun that due process should remove. Your spin is not working. Gun registration means that Billy "Bubba" Bronson, who has been convicted of cooking meth in his trailer, and beating his wife, can not hide the fact that he has an armory full of AR-16's that he uses to plink tin cans with on Saturday night when the moon is full, and he is in full tweak..

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee.

That noise you just heard was your argument blowing up in your face! Doesn't that sting just a little?

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

And gun registration does NOT abridge the right of gun ownership. It only tracks who has a gun that due process should remove. Your spin is not working. Gun registration means that Billy "Bubba" Bronson, who has been convicted of cooking meth in his trailer, and beating his wife, can not hide the fact that he has an armory full of AR-16's that he uses to plink tin cans with on Saturday night when the moon is full, and he is in full tweak..

You are just bound and determined to show the world what an imbecile you are!

WTF is an AR-16?

There is no gun registration in my state, but if convicted of a crime, I would not have the right to possess a firearm. What is the purpose in registration again?

Gun registration allows the federal government or state to know exactly what weapons I have so that it makes them much easier to confiscate.

Do you know how many firearms are in my home? No one does but me, and if registration is somehow forced upon us, there will be armed individuals like myself who will defend our rights just as our forefathers did in the fight for our independence.

Please donate your body to science and do not ever consider procreating, so we can figure out how something so stupid can still manage to breathe!

 

[Vandalshandle]

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

And gun registration does NOT abridge the right of gun ownership. It only tracks who has a gun that due process should remove. Your spin is not working. Gun registration means that Billy "Bubba" Bronson, who has been convicted of cooking meth in his trailer, and beating his wife, can not hide the fact that he has an armory full of AR-16's that he uses to plink tin cans with on Saturday night when the moon is full, and he is in full tweak..

You are just bound and determined to show the world what an imbecile you are!

WTF is an AR-16?

There is no gun registration in my state, but if convicted of a crime, I would not have the right to possess a firearm. What is the purpose in registration again?

Gun registration allows the federal government or state to know exactly what weapons I have so that it makes them much easier to confiscate.

Do you know how many firearms are in my home? No one does but me, and if registration is somehow forced upon us, there will be armed individuals like myself who will defend our rights just as our forefathers did in the fight for our independence.

Please donate your body to science and do not ever consider procreating, so we can figure out how something so stupid can still manage to breathe!

...and if you are a violent offender, with drug abuse and wife beating convictions, I would want the government to know exactly how many fire arms you have in your house, and I would expect every one of them to be accounted for and confiscated, in order to protect society against you, as a dangerous felon. And please spare us the "Mighty armed patriot, prepared to die for my rights", spiel. That only has weight when talking to Bundy and his nut buddies.

 

[Admiral Rockwell Tory]

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

And gun registration does NOT abridge the right of gun ownership. It only tracks who has a gun that due process should remove. Your spin is not working. Gun registration means that Billy "Bubba" Bronson, who has been convicted of cooking meth in his trailer, and beating his wife, can not hide the fact that he has an armory full of AR-16's that he uses to plink tin cans with on Saturday night when the moon is full, and he is in full tweak..

You are just bound and determined to show the world what an imbecile you are!

WTF is an AR-16?

There is no gun registration in my state, but if convicted of a crime, I would not have the right to possess a firearm. What is the purpose in registration again?

Gun registration allows the federal government or state to know exactly what weapons I have so that it makes them much easier to confiscate.

Do you know how many firearms are in my home? No one does but me, and if registration is somehow forced upon us, there will be armed individuals like myself who will defend our rights just as our forefathers did in the fight for our independence.

Please donate your body to science and do not ever consider procreating, so we can figure out how something so stupid can still manage to breathe!

...and if you are a violent offender, with drug abuse and wife beating convictions, I would want the government to know exactly how many fire arms you have in your house, and I would expect every one of them to be accounted for and confiscated, in order to protect society against you, as a dangerous felon. And please spare us the "Mighty armed patriot, prepared to die for my rights", spiel. That only has weight when talking to Bundy and his nut buddies.

You should know that such action is taken by the US Marshals, as well as probation and parole officers once you are convicted. That is "the government".

Please stop talking out of your ass.

 

[2aguy]

Generally, all firearms purchases and transfers, including private party transactions and sales at gun shows, must be made through a California licensed dealer under the Dealer's Record of Sale (DROS) process. California law imposes a 10-day waiting period before a firearm can be released to a purchaser or transferee.

That noise you just heard was your argument blowing up in your face! Doesn't that sting just a little?

I don't think so, "Admiral". Even you could not keep a straight face while telling me that the NRA approves of the California law you quoted, and would have no objections of other states adopting it. Also, you seemed to have overlooked the other things that I mentioned that may have prevented this man from owning a gun, including gun registration.

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

And gun registration does NOT abridge the right of gun ownership. It only tracks who has a gun that due process should remove. Your spin is not working. Gun registration means that Billy "Bubba" Bronson, who has been convicted of cooking meth in his trailer, and beating his wife, can not hide the fact that he has an armory full of AR-16's that he uses to plink tin cans with on Saturday night when the moon is full, and he is in full tweak..

Yes...gun registration does...there is a Supreme Court decision that says so.....

felons don't have to register their illegal guns....but law abiding people do...that is fucked up......

And genius.....Tyrone from the hood...and his homies...do not register the guns they keep at their drug house......they don't have to....so they are already hiding their illegally owned, and carried guns...

Your stupid quota has now been reached for the month....

Haynes v. United States - Wikipedia

As with many other 5th amendment cases, felons and others prohibited from possessing firearms could not be compelled to incriminate themselves through registration.[1][2] The National Firearms Act was amended after Haynes to make it apply only to those who could lawfully possess a firearm. This eliminated prosecution of prohibited persons, such as criminals, and cured the self-incrimination problem. In this new form, the new registration provision was upheld.

 

[2aguy]

Gun registration is in fact unconstitutional, and will be adjudicated as such very soon.

"Shall not be infringed.."

Under that argument, I guess that wwe might as well ship gun catalogs to people incarcerated in prisons, allow 10 year olds to buy 1911's, and let convicted felons get in line at the local guns shops!

Those rights are removed through due process. Why must you continue the liberal parade of those that say, "I am even more stupid than you could possibly imagine!"?

And gun registration does NOT abridge the right of gun ownership. It only tracks who has a gun that due process should remove. Your spin is not working. Gun registration means that Billy "Bubba" Bronson, who has been convicted of cooking meth in his trailer, and beating his wife, can not hide the fact that he has an armory full of AR-16's that he uses to plink tin cans with on Saturday night when the moon is full, and he is in full tweak..

You are just bound and determined to show the world what an imbecile you are!

WTF is an AR-16?

There is no gun registration in my state, but if convicted of a crime, I would not have the right to possess a firearm. What is the purpose in registration again?

Gun registration allows the federal government or state to know exactly what weapons I have so that it makes them much easier to confiscate.

Do you know how many firearms are in my home? No one does but me, and if registration is somehow forced upon us, there will be armed individuals like myself who will defend our rights just as our forefathers did in the fight for our independence.

Please donate your body to science and do not ever consider procreating, so we can figure out how something so stupid can still manage to breathe!

...and if you are a violent offender, with drug abuse and wife beating convictions, I would want the government to know exactly how many fire arms you have in your house, and I would expect every one of them to be accounted for and confiscated, in order to protect society against you, as a dangerous felon. And please spare us the "Mighty armed patriot, prepared to die for my rights", spiel. That only has weight when talking to Bundy and his nut buddies.

Moron...if you are a violent offender....you can't have any guns...at all....it is already illegal for you to have them....sure stopped this guy, didn't it?

You know that your idea has already failed more than once...they have these gun grabbing protection orders and at least two women have already been murdered by men who were supposed to have had their guns confiscated due to protection orders....here is one of them..again...

Maryland Double Homicide Highlights Folly, Dangers of 'Extreme Risk Protection Orders' - The Truth About Guns

“Chinika Hursey got a protective order against her ex-husband, Dominick Hursey, in March after she told police he threatened to kill her,” abc2news.com reports. “The order required he stay away from his ex-wife’s house and turn over any guns he had.” The cops came a knockin’ on Mr. Hursey’s door . . .

On March 27 officers went to Hursey’s house and asked him to surrender any guns. He claimed he didn’t have any. The officer search Hursey and didn’t find any guns and didn’t see any in plain sight in his Owings Mills home, but didn’t have a warrant to search the home.

On April 2 police say Hursey broke into his ex-wife’s home in Randallstown and [shot and] killed 36-year-old Chinika and her boyfriend, 36-year-old Steven Campbel.

A protective order offers no real protection against a killer.

Adding a gun confiscation element to a protective order is nothing more than security theater. A killer can get access to a firearm even if he’s prohibited from owning or legally purchasing one. And if not that, something else equally — yes equally — lethal.

 

[task0778]

BTW, my understanding is the guy had a record of arrests and charges but no convictions. And we don't know yet where he got the gun or whether it was even his.