Robert E Lee & The Confederate Solider statue removed in Dallas

[Fort Fun Indiana]

His wife owned 30 slaves but that doesn’t bother me

Good for you.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Those men did their duty to their state and died for it.

Tough shit. They fought for evil. No public monumemts to Nazis in Germany, either.

German War Memorials

I could post them all, but you get the idea that you're wrong as fuck.

Are the people of Germany wrong to remember their dead?

.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

What, you reactionary idiot? Thats stupod. You sound like a moron. I am not suggesting all statues be taken down. But you are very clearly ONLY caring about slaver statues. So, really, we are gaining more insight into your racist little inner demon than we are into me.

You have no idea my motives for preserving memorials to Jefferson. You think you do.

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[Truth1253]

His wife owned 30 slaves but that doesn’t bother me

Good for you.

It is good for me. Thank you

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Oh, yeah. I forgot to add what Germany has said about the Bizmarck wreck:

The Wreck of the Bismarck

 

[Truth1253]

Now nothing left but a graffitied stump.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Young men being called to war, regardless of the motives of the government that calls them, should be given the respect they deserve for doing their duty and paying the ultimate price.

Am I wrong?

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[iceberg]

People have asked about Jefferson, Washington, etc, as they owned slaves.

One solution? Get rid of their statues, too. We can read history. We don't need monuments to them.

Another? Add to the plaques on them about our moral progress as a society.

And, as I said earlier....THIS IS THE REAL MOTIVE!!!!

You fucking commies picked Charlottsville, NOT because of the statue of Lee, but because it is the location of Monticello.

You fucking HATE the principles of liberty and you want them ERASED, because you are fucking authoritarian commie shits!!!


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What, you reactionary idiot? Thats stupod. You sound like a moron. I am not suggesting all statues be taken down. But you are very clearly ONLY caring about slaver statues. So, really, we are gaining more insight into your racist little inner demon than we are into me.

oh no. your own racism is coming out loud and clear.

 

[iceberg]

Young men being called to war, regardless of the motives of the government that calls them, should be given the respect they deserve for doing their duty and paying the ultimate price.

Am I wrong?

.

not to me. but then i can't name anyone in a war that went into thinking "hey, i can't wait to be the bad guy!". in movies maybe, but in life? who thinks they're the bad guy?

 

[Timmy]

No, I just didn't give a fuck.

The Southern assholes fought to preserve slavery. They don't deserve statues.

So, what's wrong with this memorial?

Those men did their duty to their state and died for it.

Are you saying they should't be remembered for their sacrifice and bravery, when they had so little influence on the cause?

If you want to shit on a statue of Lee, fine, even though he honorably served the U.S. in the Mexican-American war and was an instructor at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point. These poor southern boys who were conscripted into the CSA military don't deserve some respect or memorial for dying for their state, regardless of the misguided motives of said state?



.

Why don’t we put up a statue of that guy who shot all those Dallas cops. He had the same motive as the confederates .

 

[Timmy]

Those men did their duty to their state and died for it.

Tough shit. They fought for evil. No public monumemts to Nazis in Germany, either.

German War Memorials

I could post them all, but you get the idea that you're wrong as fuck.

Are the people of Germany wrong to remember their dead?

.

I notice those monuments are surrounded by Nazi flags . Unlike the confederate flags you usually see.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

Why don’t we put up a statue of that guy who shot all those Dallas cops. He had the same motive as the confederates .

Sure. Just tell me which government called him to duty.

.

 

[bendog]

The point has already been made. The North has always been just as racist as the South.

The only difference was the South had laws for segregation and the North practiced segregation, de facto.

No the point is whether the Lost Cause was ever worthy of monuments and veneration.

There is no doubt about that. Of Course it was worth it.

If it wasn't for the Men of the South, this country would have never been a country. We'd still be answering to King Georg III.

George Washington was a Virginian. So was Patrick Henry. R.E. Lee's, daddy was "Light Horse" Harry Lee. Washington's best
Cavalry officer, who is buried with honors at West Point. During the Mexican-American War it was George Pickett that place the
American Flag atop the Mexican fortress in Mexico City. Maj John Armisted was the commanding officer of Fort McHenry.
He was Virginian, a slave owner and he will forever be known as the protector of the original Star Spangled Banner.

Audie Murphy was a Texan. Alvin York was from Tennessee. George Patton was educated at VMI.

Fuck you Yankees and/or Coon lovers. You fuck with the South you better bring your lunch.

The Lost Cause had nothing to do with reality. And if the moderators here had any balls, you'd be reconsidering calling people coons.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

I notice those monuments are surrounded by Nazi flags . Unlike the confederate flags you usually see.

Your point is well taken.

The one picture I posted had no flags in front of it.

Nor were there any in front of this one:

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[bendog]

So were Union Soldiers from Maryland, Delaware, Missouri, New Jersey, Kentucky and West Virginia, but their states
all had an institution of slavery during the Civil War. They just left the whip with their wife when they went off to fight.

btw...I'm still confused as to why MLB was segregated until 1947, even though all the teams were in the North.

How does being in the north make a difference?

MLB had a "gentlemen's agreement" for the six decades between Moses Walker and Jackie Robinson, which pretty much reflected the racial attitudes nationally in sports and in everything else. And that developed largely as another result of the Lost Cause Cult that was putting out the revisionist propaganda. That begat the spike in lynchings, race riots, the re-foundijng of the Ku Klux Klan, Jim Crow laws, "cover" records (which is why I never use the term), and the baseball "color line".

That's part of the poisonous effect of the same shit that plopped out these statues.

That's why MLB never call Robinson the "first black ballplayer" because he wasn't. They say he "broke the color line". That color line was established along with the degradation of racial relations begat by the Lost Cause Bullshit, along with the infamous Tulsa Race Riots and others like it, the Al Jolson schtick and the songs that Kate Smith recently got abandoned for. All that built up together into the worst period of racial relations this country has ever had.

The thing with baseballs color line is that none of the cities in MLB were in Jim Crow country. There were no laws requiring segregation and those cities had a sizable black population

Still they insisted on an ironclad ban on blacks

True dat, and those black populations especially in the Midwest, migrated there largely for the industrialization boom of World War I, again same time period ("Birth of a Nation" 1915; East St. Louis riots 1917; ":Red Summer" 1919; Tulsa Race Riots 1921), and upon their arrival were shunted into ghettos to keep them apart. All part of the same background. The residue of it is still apparent in St. Louis, Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago, etc. That's six baseball teams right there.

I don't think there was much questioning of segregation anywhere in the US by those in power until the 1950s. But I think you know that was different from the myth of the Lost Cause. Slavery was never beneficial, and it was not countenanced by the white Christian God. But Black people were seen as not able to control their emotions and have the intellectual ability to function as full citizens.

The Lost Cause wannabers shared the bigotry, but used it to justify not just their pre-civil war economy that was fueled by slave labor but also their post-civil war behavior that used physical and sexual abuse to terrorize a black population to continue to be labor that worked cheap and could not bargain.

I don't see them as independent of each other at all. The surge in lynchings, the banning of blacks from baseball (they hadn't been banned earlier), the race rioting, segregated public services, "race records", the re-forming and explosion in membership of the Klan, the Al Jolson images, Birth of a Nation, Gone With the Wind, the statues in question here, ALL gurgled up at the same time, and the Lost Cause Cult and its literally-rewritten history books were a major fueling catalyst in all of it. I see these as inextricable aspects of the same social dynamic. They couldn't have all bubbled up without the underlying social value being laid as a foundation by those rewritten history books, those statues and memorials, those books, plays and movies.

Seems to me the Confederacy decided if it couldn't win the war physically, it would wage one intellectually. And to a very large extent it won that one, at least for several generations. This all began right after the War ended.

We might even include the illegalization of marijuana and the myriad denunciations of jazz and later rock and roll. All branches of that same tree.

Baseball, to single it out no pun intended, is a good example. When people started playing baseball it didn't occur to them to disallow blacks on a team. That had to be learned.out of the propaganda. And later, of course, unlearned. So I think it's not a stretch to say that when Branch Rickey took on the social taboo of the baseball 'color line', he was indirectly taking on this same dynamic of this Lost Cause philosophy and what it stood for.

I don't think they were totally separate. Both the Lost Cause veneration and Jim Crow AND the de facto segregation in the North (and West, esp LA) were based on racism.


But the Lost Cause is based on Slavery being better than freedom for slaves.

I don't think the defacto segregation ANYWHERE ever said slavery was good. In the South, Faulkner never disliked blacks, he just thought it would be decades past the 1940s until they were ready for full citizenship. Harper Lee’s Atticus in the sequel to Mockingbird says the same. But it was never about Jim Crow keeping them in chains for those liberals.

Outside the South, The 1920s Klan was opposed to immigration of Catholics and Jews, and the Irish were unwanted in NY even though a previous generation gained some admittance through the Iron Brigade and civil war service. White protestants were worried about losing the homogeny of society. Billy Sunday may not have been a racist and he wasn't an avowed anti-Catholic, but I think he thought America meant protestant.

But there just weren’t that many blacks to worry about. LOL The Great Migration of blacks from the South to the Midwest and East (and West) didn’t begin in earnest until 1910 at the earliest. But I think people of color were already segregated outside the South. But the real pressure on White society outside the South didn’t really begin until after WWII. By then, a full third of blacks had migrated from the South.
Great Migration (African American) - Wikipedia

I think the mood was one that's still here - "won't these blacks go HOME and leave us alone!"

Although this is a bit OT, The anti-Trumpers fail to connect Trump to the White Supremacists because there’s a difference in that wanting to be left alone and the mythical Lost Cause or wannabe Nazi’s super race. But Trump appeals to both because both groups feel some grievance. And yes I think any affirmative action in PUBLIC/govt actions should be based on social and economic reasons, not race

 

[bendog]

I notice those monuments are surrounded by Nazi flags . Unlike the confederate flags you usually see.

Your point is well taken.

The one picture I posted had no flags in front of it.

Nor were there any in front of this one:

.

Saturday nights are the bitch! LOL Only kidding.

Jmo, but statues to the unknown soldiers, or even all from a given location, should be out of bounds. If some folks feel a need to erect monuments at places of slave mistreatment or civil rights importance, I'm all for it.

But venerating individuals … unless it's done by a bipartisan bi-racial group … it's simply divisive, and often meant that way.

 

[SandSquid]

Those men did their duty to their state and died for it.

Tough shit. They fought for evil. No public monumemts to Nazis in Germany, either.

German War Memorials

I could post them all, but you get the idea that you're wrong as fuck.

Are the people of Germany wrong to remember their dead?

.

For the soldiers that fought and died... Not against that. Where are the ones for Hitler and himmler honoring the cause.

 

[Timmy]

Why don’t we put up a statue of that guy who shot all those Dallas cops. He had the same motive as the confederates .

Sure. Just tell me which government called him to duty.

.

You have a point . Some of those look fine . There was a draft after all.

 

[Bootney Lee Farnsworth]

You have a point . Some of those look fine . There was a draft after all.

I think the best method is, when removing statues of confederate leaders, replace them with memorials to the soldiers.

That way, you're not shitting on the heritage of those who did their duty, while still getting rid of the icons of rebellion.

It seems to me like that would be a fair trade.

.

 

[Pogo]

You have a point . Some of those look fine . There was a draft after all.

I think the best method is, when removing statues of confederate leaders, replace them with memorials to the soldiers.

That way, you're not shitting on the heritage of those who did their duty, while still getting rid of the icons of rebellion.

It seems to me like that would be a fair trade.

More productive might be markers erected to the entire Lost Cause propaganda campaign, and why it ran around putting such propaganda transmitters in, say.... Montana.

If monuments are supposed to teach history (they're not, but just to entertain the fantasy), then they've obviously done a piss-poor job of describing the Civil War. Everybody knows it happened while few on this board can articulate what was going on and what wasn't.

The history of that propaganda campaign, however, is ignored and vital to be understood. You can't know where you're going unless you know where you've been --- and who took you there. And why.