Reshaping US aid to the Palestinians

[Coyote]

Does that mean you support the ally no matter what they do?

The Tolstoy quote is informing on both sides.


Why should we not be an honest broker? When we are not, the results are seldom enduring. You can’t have true and lasting peace if it is one sided.

Can't have peace without a spine.
Honesty is not an absence of moral decision in favor of an artificial image of neutrality.
One supports what is right and rejects what is wrong.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

Not always, I know Israel is fundamentally good.
Yes I do make that distinction, I know what is good and bad, anyone with a spine makes that decision, anyone without runs into the gray area in fear of upsetting someone.

Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white? Who is bad? Who is good?

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Of course they blame Hamas. Hamas deserves only part of the blame.

Izzeldin Abuelaish (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.[2]

 

[Coyote]

Aid that bypasses governments and goes directly to the people. Schools, infrastructure, economic development that directly supports entrepreneurs and small local businesses. Flac pointed the problems Palestinians have because all their trade involves Israel. They need to develop other partnerships. Why haven’t they? Does Israel restrict it? Aid can go towards developing an independent energy and water sources so Israel does not control it. Aid can be strategic by making some of it dependent on certain reforms, such as elections and anti corruption measures.

Aren't those the jobs of the government of that territory? To provide for its people with basics like entertainment and water and schools and infrastructure?

If the government is inadequate, or the economic situation situation dire, aid can help.

In fact, aid is frequently used to help hospitals and schools in many countries, and I have never before heard this argument made against them.

For how long?

I have never seen time limits placed on aid. Presumably until it is no longer needed, or otherwise ended.

This can only happen with clear frames and outlined goals, including time limits.
Otherwise You can't make a distinction when it is actually needed.

Junkies on the streets "need aid", does it help or worsen the situation if You give 'em Your paycheck with no conditions? A road to where is paved with good intentions?

How do you determine time limits when you are dealing with a catastrophic drought, or a civil war ? I agree on conditions though.

 

[Shusha]

Aren't those the jobs of the government of that territory? To provide for its people with basics like entertainment and water and schools and infrastructure?

If the government is inadequate, or the economic situation situation dire, aid can help.

In fact, aid is frequently used to help hospitals and schools in many countries, and I have never before heard this argument made against them.

What if the government actively chooses not to provide for it people? What then?

They do choose to provide it, though it is insufficiently funded.

It's insufficiently funded by whom?

The government.

The government of Palestine? We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?

How do we try to fix that?

 

[Sixties Fan]

Can't have peace without a spine.
Honesty is not an absence of moral decision in favor of an artificial image of neutrality.
One supports what is right and rejects what is wrong.

Do you believe Israel is always right?

Not always, I know Israel is fundamentally good.
Yes I do make that distinction, I know what is good and bad, anyone with a spine makes that decision, anyone without runs into the gray area in fear of upsetting someone.

Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white? Who is bad? Who is good?

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Of course they blame Hamas. Hamas deserves only part of the blame.

Izzeldin Abuelaish (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.[2]

Source ?

 

[Coyote]

Do you believe Israel is always right?

Not always, I know Israel is fundamentally good.
Yes I do make that distinction, I know what is good and bad, anyone with a spine makes that decision, anyone without runs into the gray area in fear of upsetting someone.

Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white? Who is bad? Who is good?

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Of course they blame Hamas. Hamas deserves only part of the blame.

Izzeldin Abuelaish (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.[2]

Source ?

Oops, sorry about that, here it is Izzeldin Abuelaish - Wikipedia

 

[Coyote]

If the government is inadequate, or the economic situation situation dire, aid can help.

In fact, aid is frequently used to help hospitals and schools in many countries, and I have never before heard this argument made against them.

What if the government actively chooses not to provide for it people? What then?

They do choose to provide it, though it is insufficiently funded.

It's insufficiently funded by whom?

The government.

The government of Palestine? We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?

How do we try to fix that?

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

Wow coyote is still defending the terror regime. Amazing. I see those that defend Palestine and rip Israel for who they really are.

 

[AzogtheDefiler]

 

[Sixties Fan]

Not always, I know Israel is fundamentally good.
Yes I do make that distinction, I know what is good and bad, anyone with a spine makes that decision, anyone without runs into the gray area in fear of upsetting someone.

Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white? Who is bad? Who is good?

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Of course they blame Hamas. Hamas deserves only part of the blame.

Izzeldin Abuelaish (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.[2]

Source ?

Oops, sorry about that, here it is Izzeldin Abuelaish - Wikipedia

Question:

Should a Military organization, like Hamas or any other, even the US military, act against the enemy from civilian areas?
What happened in Iraq when the US was there?

What are the consequences to the civilian population when they are either hostages, or willing to allow the military to operate within their civilian areas?

 

[Sixties Fan]

What if the government actively chooses not to provide for it people? What then?

They do choose to provide it, though it is insufficiently funded.

It's insufficiently funded by whom?

The government.

The government of Palestine? We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?

How do we try to fix that?

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Maybe if Abbas, Arafat's widow and all other Palestinian leaders went to their banks and took out all the money they stole from all the aid which was to go to the people and the building of Gaza and the PA, the Palestinian economy would not be in shambles.

Millions and Millions put in their pockets instead of invested in infrastructure and other necessities.

 

[Shusha]

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Are you arguing that PA does not have enough resources to support its people? Or are you arguing that the Palestinian economy needs to be developed? Or are you arguing that they have the resources, but are misallocating them?

 

[Coyote]

They do choose to provide it, though it is insufficiently funded.

It's insufficiently funded by whom?

The government.

The government of Palestine? We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?

How do we try to fix that?

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Maybe if Abbas, Arafat's widow and all other Palestinian leaders went to their banks and took out all the money they stole from all the aid which was to go to the people and the building of Gaza and the PA, the Palestinian economy would not be in shambles.

Millions and Millions put in their pockets instead of invested in infrastructure and other necessities.

That is a common problem with aid though, in many countries. Why single Palestine out?

 

[Shusha]

Here are some of the things US Aid to Israel goes to.

U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel

It includes schools, hospitals, and refugee and migration assistance.

I didn't see anything about schools or hospitals. Can you direct me to that place in the summary?

I did see refugee and migration assistance. That would be assistance for foreigners arriving from other countries due to persecution or conflict. This is not aide to help Israelis -- its to help the foreign nationals who end up in Israel's care.

 

[Coyote]

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Are you arguing that PA does not have enough resources to support its people? Or are you arguing that the Palestinian economy needs to be developed? Or are you arguing that they have the resources, but are misallocating them?

All three to some extent.

It lacks much in the way of resources, it needs to be developed and corruption is a problem.

 

[Coyote]

Here are some of the things US Aid to Israel goes to.

U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel

It includes schools, hospitals, and refugee and migration assistance.

I didn't see anything about schools or hospitals. Can you direct me to that place in the summary?

I did see refugee and migration assistance. That would be assistance for foreigners arriving from other countries due to persecution or conflict. This is not aide to help Israelis -- its to help the foreign nationals who end up in Israel's care.

That is to help Israeli’s - it is for people immigrating to Israel. From that link:

Migration & Refugee Assistance
Since 1973, Israel has received grants from the State Department's Migration and Refugee Assistance account (MRA)67 to assist in the resettlement of migrants to Israel. Funds are paid to the United Israel Appeal, a private philanthropic organization in the United States, which in turn transfers the funds to the Jewish Agency for Israel.68 Between 1973 and 1991, the United States gave about $460 million for resettling Jewish refugees in Israel. Annual amounts have varied from a low of $12 million to a high of $80 million, based at least partly on the number of Jews leaving the former Soviet Union and other areas for Israel.

If you look under U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel

It lists schools.

American Schools and Hospitals Abroad Program (ASHA)74
Through foreign operations appropriations legislation, Congress has funded the ASHA program as part of the overall Development Assistance (DA) appropriation to the United States Agency for International Development (USAID). According to USAID, ASHA is designed to strengthen self-sustaining schools, libraries, and medical centers that best demonstrate American ideals and practices abroad. ASHA has been providing support to institutions in the Middle East since 1957, and a number of universities and hospitals in Israel have been recipients of ASHA grants. In FY2015 (the most recent year for which data are available), ASHA grant recipients in Israel included Shaare Zedek Medical Center in Jerusalem, St. John Eye Hospital Group, Nazareth Hospital, and the Hadassah Medical Organization. According to USAID, institutions based in Israel have received the most program funding in the Middle East region.

 

[Shusha]

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Are you arguing that PA does not have enough resources to support its people? Or are you arguing that the Palestinian economy needs to be developed? Or are you arguing that they have the resources, but are misallocating them?

All three to some extent.

It lacks much in the way of resources, it needs to be developed and corruption is a problem.

I disagree vehemently that they lack adequate resources. They lack adequate will.

We agree that the economy needs to be developed. How best to do that?

Misallocation of resources is a problem. How best to fix that?

 

[Coyote]

Perhaps it is spineless to paint complex situations as black and white.

A Palestinian doctor, who had worked extensively with the Israelis in medical work, lost his children when Israel bombed Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, I believe.

Where is the black and white? Who is bad? Who is good?

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Of course they blame Hamas. Hamas deserves only part of the blame.

Izzeldin Abuelaish (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.[2]

Source ?

Oops, sorry about that, here it is Izzeldin Abuelaish - Wikipedia

Question:

Should a Military organization, like Hamas or any other, even the US military, act against the enemy from civilian areas?
What happened in Iraq when the US was there?

What are the consequences to the civilian population when they are either hostages, or willing to allow the military to operate within their civilian areas?

It is complicated. But you are assuming the claim is true. I find that hard to believe, and much like the journalist that was killed, the claims were not proven.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It's insufficiently funded by whom?

The government.

The government of Palestine? We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?

How do we try to fix that?

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Maybe if Abbas, Arafat's widow and all other Palestinian leaders went to their banks and took out all the money they stole from all the aid which was to go to the people and the building of Gaza and the PA, the Palestinian economy would not be in shambles.

Millions and Millions put in their pockets instead of invested in infrastructure and other necessities.

That is a common problem with aid though, in many countries. Why single Palestine out?

Only the Palestinian leaders do certain things the other countries do not.

Those things are in the news all the time.

 

[Coyote]

The government.

The government of Palestine? We agree. So we have a government which refuses to provide for its own people?

How do we try to fix that?

We do? Maybe they don’t have the funds. Their economy is in shambles.

Maybe if Abbas, Arafat's widow and all other Palestinian leaders went to their banks and took out all the money they stole from all the aid which was to go to the people and the building of Gaza and the PA, the Palestinian economy would not be in shambles.

Millions and Millions put in their pockets instead of invested in infrastructure and other necessities.

That is a common problem with aid though, in many countries. Why single Palestine out?

Only the Palestinian leaders do certain things the other countries do not.

Those things are in the news all the time.

Actually...they don’t.

 

[Sixties Fan]

It is always good to take the evidence from both sides:

The Israeli government is claiming that Hamas spotters were the targets of IDF shells that led to the death of three of Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish's daughters and one of his nieces during Operation Cast Lead in 2009.


According to affidavits filed by the Israeli government in the Be'er Sheva District Court, Hamas spotters were identified in the same building as the Abuelaish family. Furthermore, the state is also reiterating the claim that Palestinian weapons depots located in the building were what caused the deaths, rather than IDF artillery fire.

Lt. Col. Eran Tuval, commander of the IDF's Materials and Chemical Branch, examined fragments taken from the girls and found chemical components on them which IDF weaponry did not contain. On the other hand, the examination found that the chemicals were used in weapons used by Hamas. As such, he concluded that there was indeed an enemy ammunition dump in the same building.

(full article online)

IDF blames Hamas for death of Palestinian doctors 3 daughters


There will be hundreds, if not thousands of Palestinian civilian lives saved if Hamas stops hiding weapons, rockets etc in hospitals, schools, mosques and other forbidden places, and totally stops firing rockets or hiding in civilian areas.

Of course they blame Hamas. Hamas deserves only part of the blame.

Izzeldin Abuelaish (Arabic: OOnt MSC is a Canadian-Palestinian medical doctor and author. He was born in Gaza, and was the first Palestinian doctor to work in an Israeli hospital. He was active in promoting Israeli-Palestinian reconciliation. His daughters attended a peace camp with Israeli children in the United States. During the Gaza war, his three daughters and a niece were killed by Israeli tank fire directed at his home. He had been calling in reports about the effect of the war by phone to a TV station. In his regularly scheduled report, in tears, he described their killing on-air, in a video that was widely circulated in Israel and the world.[1] The Israeli military initially claimed that Dr. Abuelaish's house was targeted because it was the source of sniper fire. A day later the Israelis claimed to be targeting militants. It was further alleged, but unproven, that the dead girl's bodies contained shrapnel from quassam rockets.[2]

Source ?

Oops, sorry about that, here it is Izzeldin Abuelaish - Wikipedia

Question:

Should a Military organization, like Hamas or any other, even the US military, act against the enemy from civilian areas?
What happened in Iraq when the US was there?

What are the consequences to the civilian population when they are either hostages, or willing to allow the military to operate within their civilian areas?

It is complicated. But you are assuming the claim is true. I find that hard to believe, and much like the journalist that was killed, the claims were not proven.

There are tons of evidence by most of the international reporters who were there in 2014, including videos.

Research.