Republic of Türkiye

[cbi0090]

I'm still trying to figure out what this is all supposed to be leading to? How about this?

Year 2007
Population - 72.3 million
Life Expectancy - men 67.5 years women 72.1 years (not bad)
No. of men per women 102 (not good)
Population over 60 - 8% (hmmmm ?)
Population under 15 - 29.2% (you guys are busy)
GDP per head - $4,190 (US, not bad)
GDP spent on health care - 7.6%

Main export destinations EU - 54.6%, Germany - 13.9%, UK - 8.8%, US - 7.7%
Import origins: EU - 46.7%, Germany - 12.9%, Russia - 9.3%, Italy - 7.1%, US - 4.8%

What a conversation we're having!!!

Doctors per 1000 - 1.3
GDP spent on Education - 3.6
Adult literacy - 97.7% (very good)
Avg number per household - 4.7 (I knew it!)
Marriages per 1000 - 8.5
Divorces per 1000 - .6 (pretty good but Colombia has everyone beat)

Color TV's per 100 - 68
Telephone lines per 100 - 26.5 (do you all yodel?)
Mobile phones per 100 - 48 (that explains the above)

There, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

 

[Gunny]

I'm still trying to figure out what this is all supposed to be leading to? How about this?

Year 2007
Population - 72.3 million
Life Expectancy - men 67.5 years women 72.1 years (not bad)
No. of men per women 102 (not good)
Population over 60 - 8% (hmmmm ?)
Population under 15 - 29.2% (you guys are busy)
GDP per head - $4,190 (US, not bad)
GDP spent on health care - 7.6%

Main export destinations EU - 54.6%, Germany - 13.9%, UK - 8.8%, US - 7.7%
Import origins: EU - 46.7%, Germany - 12.9%, Russia - 9.3%, Italy - 7.1%, US - 4.8%

What a conversation we're having!!!

Doctors per 1000 - 1.3
GDP spent on Education - 3.6
Adult literacy - 97.7% (very good)
Avg number per household - 4.7 (I knew it!)
Marriages per 1000 - 8.5
Divorces per 1000 - .6 (pretty good but Colombia has everyone beat)

Color TV's per 100 - 68
Telephone lines per 100 - 26.5 (do you all yodel?)
Mobile phones per 100 - 48 (that explains the above)

There, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

It translates into Turkey is THE greatest thing ever, and if you don't agree, Canavar and the Turkish Brownshirts will visit your home in the wee hours of the morning.

 

[ekrem]

I'm still trying to figure out what this is all supposed to be leading to? How about this?

Year 2007
Population - 72.3 million
Life Expectancy - men 67.5 years women 72.1 years (not bad)
No. of men per women 102 (not good)
Population over 60 - 8% (hmmmm ?)
Population under 15 - 29.2% (you guys are busy)
GDP per head - $4,190 (US, not bad)
GDP spent on health care - 7.6%

Main export destinations EU - 54.6%, Germany - 13.9%, UK - 8.8%, US - 7.7%
Import origins: EU - 46.7%, Germany - 12.9%, Russia - 9.3%, Italy - 7.1%, US - 4.8%

What a conversation we're having!!!

Doctors per 1000 - 1.3
GDP spent on Education - 3.6
Adult literacy - 97.7% (very good)
Avg number per household - 4.7 (I knew it!)
Marriages per 1000 - 8.5
Divorces per 1000 - .6 (pretty good but Colombia has everyone beat)

Color TV's per 100 - 68
Telephone lines per 100 - 26.5 (do you all yodel?)
Mobile phones per 100 - 48 (that explains the above)

There, I'm glad I got that off my chest.

You ask where this thread is being supposed to lead to.
I was writing about foreign relations of Turkey.

So thank you for posting these data. We can discuss willingly inner Turkish issues, if you like. But i do not get sense about talking how much Telephone lines Turkey has, how much is life expectancy or how much Turkey spents in health care. Some data have no sense in power politics.

GDP per capita we can talk about. But we then also have to take accurate data.
For example from Deutsche Bank / German Bank.
http://www.dbresearch.de/servlet/reweb2.ReWEB?rwkey=u1562150


Public debt / GDP (2003): 79.8 %
Public debt / GDP (2007): 54,7 %

GDP per head (2003): 4,419 $
GDP per head (2007): 9,321 $

GDP nominal (2003): 305 billion $
GDP nominal (2007): 659 Billion $

GDP per head (2008 estimate): 10,737 $
GDP nominal (2008 estimate): 748 billion $

Consumer prices:

Industrial Production (1997) = 100%
Industrial Production (2007) = 139,2 %
http://www.turkstat.gov.tr/PreHaberBultenleri.do?id=1953&tb_id=1

65 % of the industrial materials of Middle East and North Africa are exported by Turkey.

Source: Foreign Economic Relations Board
http://www.deik.org.tr/deik_baskaninin_mesaji_eng.asp

Turkey and Saudi Arabia alone accounted for 78.4% and 53% respectively of the region's combined manufactured trade and manufacturing value added in 2005. They also represented 81.5% of region's sophisticated manufactures (medium and high-tech manufactures), up from 66.4% in 2000.

http://www2.ifc.org/newsflash/docs/MENA_OA407.doc

These are the relevant data.
In relation to USA, Turkish datas are not comparable but with these data Turkey is THE factor in this region. And data improve year to year.
Into play comes also Military factor and other factors like environment-water.
We have no natural enemy in this region neutralizing Turkish "expansion".
An expansionist China is partly neutralized by Japan and South-Korea.

By classical expansion like economy Turkey is expanding into all directions. The heaviest into Mid-East and Central Asia.
By saying the obvious, preconditioned you can claim to have detailed knowledge of the most important part of the world, i am in no way a Nazi.
Turkey is one of the key countries of this century.
I you have a problem with this certainty, it is not my fault.

Of Turkey being THE greatest thing ever is no talk about.
Turkey has its historical, cultural Hinterland. We will do everything to power project into there. Which country would not if it had the capabilities. The turn-outs stand on expansion. And by that i do not mean necessarily territorial expansion.

 

[roomy]

The fact is, Turkey is a 3rd rate Muslim shit hole with delusions of grandeur.
Homosexuality, paedophilia and rape are the norm and lies are the new truth.

 

[cbi0090]

Look, I agree Turkey has a lot going for it. I worked in Ankara for a short time on a bridge north of there, but it still has a long way to go and, hopefully, it will stay on course. There are some Islamic leanings that are worrisome and you just have to come to terms with the Kurds and get over it. Granted it's a two way street but you guys are in the drivers seat for the moment and could really do more to settle things.
That being said, Turkey is a good example to the rest of the middle east of how and why religion has to be separated from government. These movements to mesh the two, and it's happening all over the world including the U.S., is a formula for disaster as history has shown many times. Keep the government in the business of governing everyone and you'll be OK.
Nothing wrong with being proud of your accomplishments but don't expect everyone to share your enthusiasm there are still a lot of differences. We can only hope those will disappear over time.

 

[Toro]

Turkey is a great beacon for what one would hope the Islamic states would aspire to.

 

[roomy]

Do me a fucking favour guys, Turkey is a fucking smelly shithole, it is striving to make itself a tourist attraction for the western Europeans and truth be told a lot of folks are falling for the Muslims smiley lie, but not all, and that is the crux of the matter, we don't all buy it It will be the straw that broke the camels back when it comes to the amount of rapes etc we will put up with before we say fuck it scumbos, I suppose we will have to suck it and see.

 

[onedomino]

Do me a fucking favour guys, Turkey is a fucking smelly shithole, it is striving to make itself a tourist attraction for the western Europeans and truth be told a lot of folks are falling for the Muslims smiley lie, but not all, and that is the crux of the matter, we don't all buy it It will be the straw that broke the camels back when it comes to the amount of rapes etc we will put up with before we say fuck it scumbos, I suppose we will have to suck it and see.

The above quote is some weird, twisted, unexplained stuff from roomy.

I am no fan of Turkey due to the unmitigated lies told about America in the Turk media. According to public opinion polls (which I have previously posted and challenged canavar with), no nation despises America more than Turkey. An interesting result for an alleged ally. Turkey literally tops the list with more than 80 percent holding a negative view of America. Iran has a more favorable view of America than Turkey. But roomy, from the UK, seems to have a view of Turks that comes from a nightmare. "Amount of rapes, etc.," what is he talking about? Perhaps if he would explain, rather than leaving bizarre drive-bys, we would know to what he is referring.

 

[roomy]

The above quote is some weird, twisted, unexplained stuff from roomy.

I am no fan of Turkey due to the unmitigated lies told about America in the Turk media. According to public opinion polls (which I have previously posted and challenged canavar with), no nation despises America more than Turkey. An interesting result for an alleged ally. Turkey literally tops the list with more than 80 percent holding a negative view of America. Iran has a more favorable view of America than Turkey. But roomy, from the UK, seems to have a view of Turks that comes from a nightmare. "Amount of rapes, etc.," what is he talking about? Perhaps if he would explain, rather than leaving bizarre drive-bys, we would know to what he is referring.

Ask canavar about the rapes perpetrated upon holidaymakers every year, ask canavar about the age of the girls turkish men can marry, ask canavar about the rampant homosexuality that isn't really homosexuality in all muslim countries, ask yourself whether you know anything about anything before you question anyone.

 

[onedomino]

Ask canavar about the rapes perpetrated upon holidaymakers every year, ask canavar about the age of the girls turkish men can marry, ask canavar about the rampant homosexuality that isn't really homosexuality in all muslim countries, ask yourself whether you know anything about anything before you question anyone.

Thoughtful response and along the lines of what I expected from you, expecially the insulting last part. "Anything about anything?" What a nasty thing to say. Fortunately, you are no more representative of folk from the UK than I hope canavar is of people from Turkey. Of course you have links to back up your accusations. I have read and traveled widely and have never heard of what you are referring. Let's see the links regarding "rampant homosexuality." The crime stats for visitors to Turkey are worse than other nations? Let's see the links.

 

[Toro]

Its good to see the BNP repping at USMB...

 

[Gunny]

Thoughtful response and along the lines of what I expected from you, expecially the insulting last part. "Anything about anything?" What a nasty thing to say. Fortunately, you are no more representative of folk from the UK than I hope canavar is of people from Turkey. Of course you have links to back up your accusations. I have read and traveled widely and have never heard of what you are referring. Let's see the links regarding "rampant homosexuality." The crime stats for visitors to Turkey are worse than other nations? Let's see the links.

The biggest problem with Turks is manifest in Canavar. They still believe they are the Ottoman Empire. Ultra-nationalists who view themselves as superior to everyone else.

Fortunately, regardless their beliefs, their government is a bit more pragmatic than the likes of Canavar. Remember his chest-thumping that Turkey was just going to invade Iraq and go after the Kurds and if they US tried to stop them we'd get our asses kicked too?

Reality didn't quite work out that way. Probably why canavar was nowhere to be found. He as pouting in the corner in his room because the Turkish government actually worked out an agreement with the US before doing anything.

 

[onedomino]

The biggest problem with Turks is manifest in Canavar. They still believe they are the Ottoman Empire. Ultra-nationalists who view themselves as superior to everyone else.

Fortunately, regardless their beliefs, their government is a bit more pragmatic than the likes of Canavar. Remember his chest-thumping that Turkey was just going to invade Iraq and go after the Kurds and if they US tried to stop them we'd get our asses kicked too?

Reality didn't quite work out that way. Probably why canavar was nowhere to be found. He as pouting in the corner in his room because the Turkish government actually worked out an agreement with the US before doing anything.

I do remember that. Canavar was far off the deep end in those posts. It was always clear that the Turks were not going to do anything in Iraq without US agreement. Further, the points made about the Turk government seeking a public relations move that would mollify people like canavar has also proved correct. No way has their very limited recent military activity along the northern border done anything to subdue the PKK in the long term. But such activity has had people like canavar dreaming of the glory days of the Ottoman Empire. We discussed it before. If the Turks wanted a real voice in what was going to happen in Iraq, then they needed to not wring their hands on the sidelines back in 2003, while simultaneously throwing their increasingly Islamified culture and rabid media a bone by blocking the advance of the 4th ID into northern Iraq. Instead the Turk government ducked for cover, and is now ineffectually seeking an anti Kurd response that assuages a mercurial electorate that wanted no involvement in Iraq in 2003, and now wants influence over the Kurds in 2008. Not very realistic.

 

[Anguille]

Here i will write about Turkish republic. Who is interested in, can follow this thread.

Canavar, how did you feel about the criminal charges made against Orhan Pamuk in '05 for supposedly insulting Turkey's armed forces by alluding to the Armenian genocide in a magazine interview?

 

[roomy]

Thoughtful response and along the lines of what I expected from you, expecially the insulting last part. "Anything about anything?" What a nasty thing to say. Fortunately, you are no more representative of folk from the UK than I hope canavar is of people from Turkey. Of course you have links to back up your accusations. I have read and traveled widely and have never heard of what you are referring. Let's see the links regarding "rampant homosexuality." The crime stats for visitors to Turkey are worse than other nations? Let's see the links.

Show me a link to your ability to comprehend and I will show you the links you ask for as you seem to be incapable of research.

 

[onedomino]

Show me a link to your ability to comprehend and I will show you the links you ask for as you seem to be incapable of research.

What a surprise. You've got nothing.

 

[roomy]

What a surprise. You've got nothing.

Yet my nothing is still twice as much as you've got, what does 2x0=?

 

[ekrem]

Canavar, how did you feel about the criminal charges made against Orhan Pamuk in '05 for supposedly insulting Turkey's armed forces by alluding to the Armenian genocide in a magazine interview?

It is normal that everyone (and i mean everyone) can accuse someone to have broken laws.
Such a citizen is Kemal Kerincsiz makeing use of its rights, which everyone also has:

Kemal Kerinçsiz is a Turkish ultra-nationalist lawyer,[1][2] famous for filing complaints against more than 40 Turkish journalists and authors (including Orhan Pamuk, Elif Şafak,[3][4] and the late Hrant Dink[5]) for "insulting Turkishness". He heads the Büyük Hukukçular Birliği ("Great Union of Jurists"), which is responsible for most Article 301 trials.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_Kerinçsiz
When someone makes a charge court will investigate. If it finds accusations accurate person will get sanctioned.

To Orhan Pamuk:
Not the accusal is important but the evaluation and rendition.
Orhan Pamuk, was speaken free of the charge.

Another case is Hrant Dink. He was an owner of a newspaper and philosophed therein about Turkish blood. Later he was shot down by a 17 year old teenager. There is still a debate how Hrant Dink meant his article about Turkish Blood. The court interpreted it as insulting Turkishness.
Here the subjective motive on which the teenager shot Hrant Dink:

"I read on the Internet that [Dink] said 'I am from Turkey but Turkish blood is dirty' and I decided to kill him ...I do not regret this," CNN Turk quoted Samast as saying.
"I don't regret it. I would do it again," the youth was quoted as saying during his preliminary interrogation in Samsun, according Chief Prosecutor Ahmet Gokcinar.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=64501


Here a representative study by METU-University interrogating 18.000 student future teachers country-wide on universities.

Close to two-thirds of students (72.1 percent) believe schools should instill a sense of Turkishness and the principles of being a Turk, according to the poll.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=90525
Introduceing ex ante the next generation of Turks.


Regarding article 301 of Turkish criminal code, every country has such.
Article 301 and its European cousins
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=57105

 

[ekrem]

The biggest problem with Turks is manifest in Canavar. They still believe they are the Ottoman Empire. Ultra-nationalists who view themselves as superior to everyone else.

Fortunately, regardless their beliefs, their government is a bit more pragmatic than the likes of Canavar. Remember his chest-thumping that Turkey was just going to invade Iraq and go after the Kurds and if they US tried to stop them we'd get our asses kicked too?

Reality didn't quite work out that way. Probably why canavar was nowhere to be found. He as pouting in the corner in his room because the Turkish government actually worked out an agreement with the US before doing anything.

Turkish nationalism is not based on being superior to anyone else.
We also are not the Ottoman Empire.
We are Türkiye Cumhuriyeti (Turkish Republic). As such haveing no imperial past since foundation in 1923.

Turkey has much what Ottoman Empire didn't have and vice-versa. Ottoman Empire in its endings was a primitive farmer state dealing with spices and such. Also it did loose military backwater over its rivals.
This theme is totally complex and can be subject to academical writings, so here is not the place to talk about, just polarizing and summarizing in 2 sentences.

The point, GunnyL, is, that you have almost no clue about geo-politics of Turkey in regard of its influence over this region.
And this is not meant negative as we do not have an imperial past and did drive a isolationistic strategy the last 85 years.
15 years ago there was the Soviets, 10 years ago a hostile Greece and Syria, 5 years ago a hostile Iran and an UN-sanctioned Iraq.
So Turkey did concentrate mainly on direct neighbors. No option of expansion in general and specifically for example 10 years ago we did not have that clear advantage over neighbours like Greece (military speaking, although creating Northern Cyprus). Greece? Yes, they are armed with High-Tech from all over the world from toe to teeths. The strongest conventional country on earth in similar population size category.
Today its totally different. We can dominate our neighbors excluding Russia, with which we do not have any problems but are cooperateing. It is a must for Russia and Turkey as well.

10 years ago, political and hostile differences did block Turkish economical expansion into neighbouring countries. Today we expand therein and beyond that.
And that is not because Turkey is the world's economical superpower, but we are in comparison to our Hinterland the very economic power, while most of our Hinterland are fucked-up states due to different reasons and ideologies. This also is very complex.
As Turkey is also currently in Transantlantic system in general and in EU customs union specifically our economy did have to to adapt not being imperialized.
And this is also working. Turkish-EU complete trade is more than 100 billion € a year, makeing Turkey every year more important also to our traditional focus points. Today Turkey is 5th biggest trade partner of EU whilst we do import many things, we do also export a shitload of different things. Turkish mid-high technology exports rising every year paralell to Turkish brands accomplishing in traditional markets, like EU.

We are in comparison to our neighbours THE economical, industrial factor.
Only political differences can stop Turkish expansion into Hinterland. So strategy is zero-problems politics, so it is ensured that Turkish economical expansion is not hidered.
Imagine you are a country boardering to 10 countries and 1 country is UN-sanctioned and 6 others block your business activity just because you have hostile relations to them. Substantial development can't be made in these circumstances. Tell an Iran about WTO
In Iran for example everything state planned or in hands of religious bonjads (Mullah trusts). Other neighbours do not even have a substantial industry.
Once boarders open (i do not speak specifically of Iran) Turkish exports skyrocket.
No "tigers" around us.
That is currently happening:
Sustainable growth rates in traditional markets and finally flooding of Turkish goods into markets of surrounding region.
Turkish private business entrepreneurship is successful and expanding. As a consequence Turkish state by wealthier citizens and higher taxes has more to spent.

Military is also a factor, 2nd largest standing force within NATO. This does not necessarily mean anything, because we do not fight with swords. But everything what a modern-day army makes it a powerhouse, Turkey has.
Exponentially rising self-sustaining. Turkey developing fighter aircrafts we will not see. F-35 is latest import product for airforce allthough we do have a workshare within F-35 project. By saying last it does not mean, that Turkey will leave te order at the initial order of 100-116 units. Beyond initial requirement they will replace other squadrons of F-4E 2020 Terminator, F-4E Phantom II, F-5 2000.
All of them modernized in last years in co-production with Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and Turkish Aerospace Industries (TAI).
First requirement is 100-116 F-35. Paralell we have about 248 F-16 CCIP.
The future is UCAV and TAI is researching in these areas haveing developed indigenious UAV's.
In Navy, and Army Turkey has major indigenious projects going on. Some of them in delivery, some in development phase.
Not that shit products of reverse-engineering of North-Korean missiles for example.
If we cooperate in development then with Italy, Germany, South-Korea and Israel.
And we actually do.

Military is the biggest factor and GunnyL what he might think in general about Turkey can not deny, that TSK will bring a major shitload of destruction over our neighbours (some of them simultanouesly) once war-machinery rolls. A power which does have stronger army then Turkey (and they are not many) has as a start to bring its war-machinery into this region. For example on paper UK is militarily more advanced (especially Royal Navy) then Turkey. But our war-machinery is here, in-tact, flexible and deployable beyond our boarders.
So UK might be a bigger military power then Turkey, but in its own region.
Or don't you agree?

So what do we have? Being THE factor in this region
- econimically
- industrially
- militarily

This is a broad-spectrum strength to which you can add also factors like environment (water, agriculture, animal husbandry). It will be a critical factor in near future. 2025 onwards. Turkey is industrializing all its environment ressources.
Water is subject of national security and as such utilized and investments canalized. I will not talk of being able to stop waterflow of transnational lifelines like Euphrates and Tigris. We are able. GAP project has a flooding of size of Benelux countries and will have prognosticallly agricultural output of half California once it is completed.

Scientific output, which we do also lead in this region is mainly a sub-subject of economy. So i count it. Except knowledge which is utilized by state.
Turkey has Thorium research activities and is in development phase of uranium nuclear reactors. Uranium reactors are being indigeniously developped for 3 Billion YTL = 2,3 Billion $.
http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/402183.asp
Off course this is only development costs and setting them up economically will raise total costs. It is only development. Not taking 10 reactors online into grid.
If Turkey once wants to be a nuclear power, we have the knowledge to. And the whole cycle is in Turkish state's hand (TAEK= Atomic Energy Institution).
This blackmarket-activity is not equitably to our past and present.
Turkey can dig into Toros-mountains and build nuclear weapons nobody even knowing about. It's those relying on blackmarket countries where IAEA comes to step on your foots. See Iran.

What misses is the delivering mechanism. ICBM's etc..
This will be solved paralell to Turkish space missile in 2014, which will bring a scientific satellite either to Mars or Moon. It is not decided yet.
Space programme is under authority of Airforce and financed from its budget.
Developer is Roketsan.
Here you can access a study of Engineering Directorate of Roketsan giving a roadmap.
http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/xpl/freeabs_all.jsp?arnumber=1512698
In Turkish sources it is being said 2014.
2011 beginning of construction of space station.

My point is working against the equatation of acting aggressively and being "important". What cliches some people do have here on board is not that important. In the end i am a nobody just writeing in his free time in a forum. Allthough on a factual basis. And I came here on a specifical subject, and after writeing that much i find it pity to let this account in the annals of Internet data-garbage after that specifical subject is getting less important.
If you do impute me megalomania, dreaming, fixing + fakeing it does not interest me at the end of the day.
I am sure, i hope so, that there are maybe people interested in Turkey beyond those few people who actually respond to my posts.
Off course, to those people imputeing me these things: It is far from over.
As there is dynamism in Turkey, there is much to write about.

And yes, GunnyL, i am nationalistic and there is nothing wrong about. Nationalism may have a negative bridge to fascism in west, but not in Turkey's history and practizing of my positions. I am the antonym to what you link me and permanently direct or indirect label me.

 

[Anguille]

It is normal that everyone (and i mean everyone) can accuse someone to have broken laws.
Such a citizen is Kemal Kerincsiz makeing use of its rights, which everyone also has:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemal_Kerinçsiz
When someone makes a charge court will investigate. If it finds accusations accurate person will get sanctioned.

To Orhan Pamuk:
Not the accusal is important but the evaluation and rendition.
Orhan Pamuk, was speaken free of the charge.

Another case is Hrant Dink. He was an owner of a newspaper and philosophed therein about Turkish blood. Later he was shot down by a 17 year old teenager. There is still a debate how Hrant Dink meant his article about Turkish Blood. The court interpreted it as insulting Turkishness.
Here the subjective motive on which the teenager shot Hrant Dink:

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=64501


Here a representative study by METU-University interrogating 18.000 student future teachers country-wide on universities.

http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=90525
Introduceing ex ante the next generation of Turks.


Regarding article 301 of Turkish criminal code, every country has such.
Article 301 and its European cousins
http://www.turkishdailynews.com.tr/article.php?enewsid=57105

Thanks Canovar, for the links. particularly the one about Article 301. It's always best to hear both sides of the story.