RCC To Catholics: How To Convert A Wiccan

[Madeline]

There's a terrible cost associated with religion, logical4U. Only you can decide whether it is worth paying.

* The "my way or the highway" routine, that leads even members of the same faith but different sects to wage war on one another. Jews, Hindus, christians, Muslims....this is likely a universal problem. Even the Amish are hostile to non-Amish people, peaceful as they are.

* The interference in politics by religious organizations with too much power and too much money.

* The common belief that clergy are "morally superior", church property should not be taxed, church elders should never be brought to justice, etc.

Are we better off, as humans, if we have an official group think on ethics? Of course. Are we better off if some group is formed to enforce that ethical code?

Mayhaps not so much.

Find me a nation of atheists and we'll compare.

Still, you will not have the "open" discussion. It is closeted against Christians while giving every other religion a pass... your atheist nation: communist, check the violence that happened when there was supposedly "no god".

Remember, the fact that the government sought to repress spiritual expression does not mean there was no faith. Poland was a communist country for much of Pope John Paul's life; when the communists lost power, were there suddenly Millions of Polish christians? Of course not. But yes, you can add atheist violence against religious people to the laundry list of "unintended bad effects of religion".

Why do you "hate" Christians so much?

You can learn a great deal about my beliefs in this thread.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/119042-why-i-am-not-a-christian.html

The first few pages are prolly enough...it's almost 70 pages long.

I don't hate christians. Who (unless unbalanced) would? There are personality traits I despise, but really, no one human on Earth has inspired hate in me -- in the past, yes, but I have relinquished that. The mere fact that I have been exposed to your faith and yet still not accepted it for myself does not mean I hate all the adherents, logical4U.

"* The "my way or the highway" routine" this is done when there is absolute power (Christianity calls every person to a "personal" relationship with the Lord, no one else is "necessary", the variety of faiths are from people concentrating their religious learning to specifics).

I was referring to, e.g., violence between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants.

The "highway" is being robbed (legally of course) of everything that person or their family has worked for or produced. It is always in the name of _____ (usually something that causes warm and fuzzy thoughts)

How does this bear on religion?

"* The interference in politics by religious organizations with too much power and too much money." Religious organizations are made of "people". Are you saying that a group of people with similar interests should not be allowed to have representation or influence?

The Pope is not a US citizen, and yet, thankies to tithing by American Catholics, he gets to manipulate US politics. You might not be aware of this, but the RCC and the Mormon Church were largely responsible for funding the disinformation campaign that saw California de-legitimize gay marriage. IMO, it is 100% okay to teach the adherents that gay marriage is bad...it is NOT okay to try and force that belief on the public at large.


"* The common belief that clergy are "morally superior", church property should not be taxed, church elders should never be brought to justice, etc." The "clergy" are people. There is not one that is not tempted by sin. The clergy (typically) has studied their faith more intensively, than the average person sitting in the pew. If the Holy Spirit has blessed them, they may have one or more of the powers that were given the disciples.

Sorry, I dun believe in magic, in the year One B.C. or now.

The church property was not taxed, primarily because the "church property" was a joint ownership of the congregation.

So what? We know how to tax jointly-owned property, logical4U. Ever heard of a condominium?

It would be like taxing government property.

No, logical4U. The government does not tax government property for the same reason you dun pay yourself a salary for looking after you. When the government exempts religious property and income from tax, it values that property and income above the property and income of ordinary citizens. IMO, this is wrong. It's a way for government to help underwrite the costs of that religion -- and to "compel" taxpayers who dun belong to contribute towards it.


Previously, the thing and people that "enforced ethical codes" was the "law".

Many things which are not illegal are unethical, IMO. This has always been true.

Not so much any more.

Just relying on my own life experience, I assure you, for every evil that is new in 2011, one evil of the past has been retired or severely curtailed. IMO, the quantum of evil remains about the same from era to era.

It is used to give the corrupt politicians more power and the "people", less (of everthing from freedom to money).

Nonsense. In many ways -- most especially the net -- common folk have never had as much power as they do now, at least in the US.

Are you afraid to say that muslims (some) will hurt or kill to force others to join their religion? Are you afraid to mention there are a few Hindu groups that are also doing this?

I have no idea whether Muslims anywhere on Planet Earth are murdering those who refuse to convert to Islam. Nor do I know if Hindus are doing so. Neither group is doing so here in the US.

 

[logical4u]

There's a terrible cost associated with religion, logical4U. Only you can decide whether it is worth paying.

* The "my way or the highway" routine, that leads even members of the same faith but different sects to wage war on one another. Jews, Hindus, christians, Muslims....this is likely a universal problem. Even the Amish are hostile to non-Amish people, peaceful as they are.

* The interference in politics by religious organizations with too much power and too much money.

* The common belief that clergy are "morally superior", church property should not be taxed, church elders should never be brought to justice, etc.

Are we better off, as humans, if we have an official group think on ethics? Of course. Are we better off if some group is formed to enforce that ethical code?

Mayhaps not so much.

Find me a nation of atheists and we'll compare.

Still, you will not have the "open" discussion. It is closeted against Christians while giving every other religion a pass... your atheist nation: communist, check the violence that happened when there was supposedly "no god".

Remember, the fact that the government sought to repress spiritual expression does not mean there was no faith. Poland was a communist country for much of Pope John Paul's life; when the communists lost power, were there suddenly Millions of Polish christians? Of course not. But yes, you can add atheist violence against religious people to the laundry list of "unintended bad effects of religion".

Why do you "hate" Christians so much?

You can learn a great deal about my beliefs in this thread.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/religion-and-ethics/119042-why-i-am-not-a-christian.html

The first few pages are prolly enough...it's almost 70 pages long.

I don't hate christians. Who (unless unbalanced) would? There are personality traits I despise, but really, no one human on Earth has inspired hate in me -- in the past, yes, but I have relinquished that. The mere fact that I have been exposed to your faith and yet still not accepted it for myself does not mean I hate all the adherents, logical4U.

"* The "my way or the highway" routine" this is done when there is absolute power (Christianity calls every person to a "personal" relationship with the Lord, no one else is "necessary", the variety of faiths are from people concentrating their religious learning to specifics).

I was referring to, e.g., violence between Irish Catholics and Irish Protestants.

The "highway" is being robbed (legally of course) of everything that person or their family has worked for or produced. It is always in the name of _____ (usually something that causes warm and fuzzy thoughts)

How does this bear on religion?

"* The interference in politics by religious organizations with too much power and too much money." Religious organizations are made of "people". Are you saying that a group of people with similar interests should not be allowed to have representation or influence?

The Pope is not a US citizen, and yet, thankies to tithing by American Catholics, he gets to manipulate US politics. You might not be aware of this, but the RCC and the Mormon Church were largely responsible for funding the disinformation campaign that saw California de-legitimize gay marriage. IMO, it is 100% okay to teach the adherents that gay marriage is bad...it is NOT okay to try and force that belief on the public at large.


"* The common belief that clergy are "morally superior", church property should not be taxed, church elders should never be brought to justice, etc." The "clergy" are people. There is not one that is not tempted by sin. The clergy (typically) has studied their faith more intensively, than the average person sitting in the pew. If the Holy Spirit has blessed them, they may have one or more of the powers that were given the disciples.

Sorry, I dun believe in magic, in the year One B.C. or now.

The church property was not taxed, primarily because the "church property" was a joint ownership of the congregation.

So what? We know how to tax jointly-owned property, logical4U. Ever heard of a condominium?

It would be like taxing government property.

No, logical4U. The government does not tax government property for the same reason you dun pay yourself a salary for looking after you. When the government exempts religious property and income from tax, it values that property and income above the property and income of ordinary citizens. IMO, this is wrong. It's a way for government to help underwrite the costs of that religion -- and to "compel" taxpayers who dun belong to contribute towards it.


Previously, the thing and people that "enforced ethical codes" was the "law".

Many things which are not illegal are unethical, IMO. This has always been true.

Not so much any more.

Just relying on my own life experience, I assure you, for every evil that is new in 2011, one evil of the past has been retired or severely curtailed. IMO, the quantum of evil remains about the same from era to era.

It is used to give the corrupt politicians more power and the "people", less (of everthing from freedom to money).

Nonsense. In many ways -- most especially the net -- common folk have never had as much power as they do now, at least in the US.

Are you afraid to say that muslims (some) will hurt or kill to force others to join their religion? Are you afraid to mention there are a few Hindu groups that are also doing this?

I have no idea whether Muslims anywhere on Planet Earth are murdering those who refuse to convert to Islam. Nor do I know if Hindus are doing so. Neither group is doing so here in the US.

The my way or the highway is a direct reference to when religios "power" becomes "political" power. It is no longer spiritual, but political.

"I have no idea whether Muslims anywhere on Planet Earth are murdering those who refuse to convert to Islam. Nor do I know if Hindus are doing so. Neither group is doing so here in the US.[/QUOTE]"

You implied that the Christians are doing "witch hunts". Do you know any Christians that are directly involved with "witch hunts"? Again, I point out your intellectual dishonesty: you will say things about Christians based on ancient history without personal knowledge, while ignoring current reports from new reports as well as personal experiences from other religions, mainly islam and hindu. Are you saying Lara Logan's attack didn't happen because you didn't know those muslims or that they weren't really calling her a "Jew", while the violence was occurring, because you weren't there? Will that whole event just be shut out of your mind so that you don't have to pretend that your posts show support for the religion that "accepts" this kind of violence against those that are weak or not of their faith?

 

[Anachronism]

Interestingly, as a Solitary Eclectic Pagan myself, I haven't seen these mobs of Catholics running around the streets trying to convert me as of yet. Then again, considering that I grew up in the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, I can probably quote their own doctrine back at them better than they can. I'm sure it would be fun to watch, anyway.