CDZ Rat Utopia and it's Failure

JimBowie1958

Old Fogey
Sep 25, 2011
63,590
16,753
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I am skeptical about how many parralels there are between mice and men, but I suspect that there are some.

While I work on the assumption that all mankind is capable of reason and behaving rationally, I cant help wondering if maybe there could be some deeper psychological needs that vary from ethnicity to ethnicity that have other more subtle demands as well.

Doess anyone else have anything they might share?

The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the ā€˜Rats of NIMHā€™ - Atlas Obscura - Pocket

On July 9th, 1968, eight white mice were placed into a strange box at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Maybe ā€œboxā€ isnā€™t the right word for it; the space was more like a room, known as Universe 25, about the size of a small storage unit. The mice themselves were bright and healthy, hand-picked from the instituteā€™s breeding stock. They were given the run of the place, which had everything they might need: food, water, climate control, hundreds of nesting boxes to choose from, and a lush floor of shredded paper and ground corn cob.

This is a far cry from a wild mouseā€™s lifeā€”no cats, no traps, no long winters. Itā€™s even better than your average lab mouseā€™s, which is constantly interrupted by white-coated humans with scalpels or syringes. The residents of Universe 25 were mostly left alone, save for one man who would peer at them from above, and his team of similarly interested assistants. They must have thought they were the luckiest mice in the world. They couldnā€™t have known the truth: that within a few years, they and their descendants would all be dead.

The man who played mouse-God and came up with this doomed universe was named John Bumpass Calhoun. As Edmund Ramsden and Jon Adams detail in a paper, ā€œEscaping the Laboratory: The Rodent Experiments of John B. Calhoun & Their Cultural Influence,ā€ Calhoun spent his childhood traipsing around Tennessee, chasing toads, collecting turtles, and banding birds. These adventures eventually led him to a doctorate in biology, and then a job in Baltimore, where he was tasked with studying the habits of Norway rats, one of the cityā€™s chief pests....

In 1947, to keep a close eye on his charges, Calhoun constructed a quarter-acre ā€œrat cityā€ behind his house, and filled it with breeding pairs. He expected to be able to house 5,000 rats there, but over the two years he observed the city, the population never exceeded 150. At that point, the rats became too stressed to reproduce. They started acting weirdly, rolling dirt into balls rather than digging normal tunnels. They hissed and fought.

This fascinated Calhounā€”if the rats had everything they needed, what was keeping them from overrunning his little city, just as they had all of Baltimore?

Intrigued, Calhoun built another, slightly bigger rat metropolisā€”this time in a barn, with ramps connecting several different rooms. Then he built another and another, hopping between patrons that supported his research, and framing his work in terms of population: How many individuals could a rodent city hold without losing its collective mind? By 1954, he was working under the auspices of the National Institute of Mental Health, which gave him whole rooms to build his rodentopias. Some of these featured rats, while others focused on mice instead. Like a rodent real estate developer, he incorporated ever-better amenities: climbable walls, food hoppers that could serve two dozen customers at once, lodging he described as ā€œwalk-up one-room apartments.ā€ Video records of his experiments show Calhoun with a pleased smile and a pipe in his mouth, color-coded mice scurrying over his boots.

Still, at a certain point, each of these paradises collapsed. ā€œThere could be no escape from the behavioral consequences of rising population density,ā€ Calhoun wrote in an early paper. Even Universe 25ā€”the biggest, best mousetopia of all, built after a quarter century of researchā€”failed to break this pattern. In late October, the first litter of mouse pups was born. After that, the population doubled every two monthsā€”20 mice, then 40, then 80. The babies grew up and had babies of their own. Families became dynasties, carving out and holding down the best in-cage real estate. By August of 1969, the population numbered 620.

Then, as always, things took a turn. Such rapid growth put too much pressure on the mouse way of life. As new generations reached adulthood, many couldnā€™t find mates, or places in the social orderā€”the mouse equivalent of a spouse and a job. Spinster females retreated to high-up nesting boxes, where they lived alone, far from the family neighborhoods. Washed-up males gathered in the center of the Universe, near the food, where they fretted, languished, and attacked each other. Meanwhile, overextended mouse moms and dads began moving nests constantly to avoid their unsavory neighbors. They also took their stress out on their babies, kicking them out of the nest too early, or even losing them during moves....

Population growth slowed way down again. Most of the adolescent mice retreated even further from societal expectations, spending all their time eating, drinking, sleeping and grooming, and refusing to fight or to even attempt to mate. (These individuals were forever changedā€”when Calhounā€™s colleague attempted to transplant some of them to more normal situations, they didnā€™t remember how to do anything.) In May of 1970, just under 2 years into the study, the last baby was born, and the population entered a swan dive of perpetual senescence. Itā€™s unclear exactly when the last resident of Universe 25 perished, but it was probably sometime in 1973.

Paradise couldnā€™t even last half a decade.
I am wondering if virtual worlds might provide the mental freedom, room for creativity and a sense of purpose and relevance to people to combat this societal collapse in the hearts and minds of mankind. Of course the old traditional values we have evolved over thousands and millions of years would provide the ultimate foundation, but maybe it can make up in some small degree what Reality lacks in an increasingly over populated human society?
 
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metaphorically alarming Jim

~S~

No, it is not alarming, metaphorically or otherwise. It might be if rats where humankind's equivalent in terms of reasonable societal self-organization and planning, and if rats hadn't themselves demonstrated the ability to survive for tens of thousands of years and who knows for how many generations when in an environment to which they are adapted.

It's just another way conservatives find to create out of predictions of doom a "justification" for the imposition of retrograde regulations under the threadbare banner of "traditional values".
 
I am skeptical about how many parralels there are between mice and men, but I suspect that there are some.

While I work on the assumption that all mankind is capable of reason and behaving rationally, I cant help wondering if maybe there could be some deeper psychological needs that vary from ethnicity to ethnicity that have other more subtle demands as well.

Doess anyone else have anything they might share?

The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the ā€˜Rats of NIMHā€™ - Atlas Obscura - Pocket

On July 9th, 1968, eight white mice were placed into a strange box at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Maybe ā€œboxā€ isnā€™t the right word for it; the space was more like a room, known as Universe 25, about the size of a small storage unit. The mice themselves were bright and healthy, hand-picked from the instituteā€™s breeding stock. They were given the run of the place, which had everything they might need: food, water, climate control, hundreds of nesting boxes to choose from, and a lush floor of shredded paper and ground corn cob.

This is a far cry from a wild mouseā€™s lifeā€”no cats, no traps, no long winters. Itā€™s even better than your average lab mouseā€™s, which is constantly interrupted by white-coated humans with scalpels or syringes. The residents of Universe 25 were mostly left alone, save for one man who would peer at them from above, and his team of similarly interested assistants. They must have thought they were the luckiest mice in the world. They couldnā€™t have known the truth: that within a few years, they and their descendants would all be dead.

The man who played mouse-God and came up with this doomed universe was named John Bumpass Calhoun. As Edmund Ramsden and Jon Adams detail in a paper, ā€œEscaping the Laboratory: The Rodent Experiments of John B. Calhoun & Their Cultural Influence,ā€ Calhoun spent his childhood traipsing around Tennessee, chasing toads, collecting turtles, and banding birds. These adventures eventually led him to a doctorate in biology, and then a job in Baltimore, where he was tasked with studying the habits of Norway rats, one of the cityā€™s chief pests....

In 1947, to keep a close eye on his charges, Calhoun constructed a quarter-acre ā€œrat cityā€ behind his house, and filled it with breeding pairs. He expected to be able to house 5,000 rats there, but over the two years he observed the city, the population never exceeded 150. At that point, the rats became too stressed to reproduce. They started acting weirdly, rolling dirt into balls rather than digging normal tunnels. They hissed and fought.

This fascinated Calhounā€”if the rats had everything they needed, what was keeping them from overrunning his little city, just as they had all of Baltimore?

Intrigued, Calhoun built another, slightly bigger rat metropolisā€”this time in a barn, with ramps connecting several different rooms. Then he built another and another, hopping between patrons that supported his research, and framing his work in terms of population: How many individuals could a rodent city hold without losing its collective mind? By 1954, he was working under the auspices of the National Institute of Mental Health, which gave him whole rooms to build his rodentopias. Some of these featured rats, while others focused on mice instead. Like a rodent real estate developer, he incorporated ever-better amenities: climbable walls, food hoppers that could serve two dozen customers at once, lodging he described as ā€œwalk-up one-room apartments.ā€ Video records of his experiments show Calhoun with a pleased smile and a pipe in his mouth, color-coded mice scurrying over his boots.

Still, at a certain point, each of these paradises collapsed. ā€œThere could be no escape from the behavioral consequences of rising population density,ā€ Calhoun wrote in an early paper. Even Universe 25ā€”the biggest, best mousetopia of all, built after a quarter century of researchā€”failed to break this pattern. In late October, the first litter of mouse pups was born. After that, the population doubled every two monthsā€”20 mice, then 40, then 80. The babies grew up and had babies of their own. Families became dynasties, carving out and holding down the best in-cage real estate. By August of 1969, the population numbered 620.

Then, as always, things took a turn. Such rapid growth put too much pressure on the mouse way of life. As new generations reached adulthood, many couldnā€™t find mates, or places in the social orderā€”the mouse equivalent of a spouse and a job. Spinster females retreated to high-up nesting boxes, where they lived alone, far from the family neighborhoods. Washed-up males gathered in the center of the Universe, near the food, where they fretted, languished, and attacked each other. Meanwhile, overextended mouse moms and dads began moving nests constantly to avoid their unsavory neighbors. They also took their stress out on their babies, kicking them out of the nest too early, or even losing them during moves....

Population growth slowed way down again. Most of the adolescent mice retreated even further from societal expectations, spending all their time eating, drinking, sleeping and grooming, and refusing to fight or to even attempt to mate. (These individuals were forever changedā€”when Calhounā€™s colleague attempted to transplant some of them to more normal situations, they didnā€™t remember how to do anything.) In May of 1970, just under 2 years into the study, the last baby was born, and the population entered a swan dive of perpetual senescence. Itā€™s unclear exactly when the last resident of Universe 25 perished, but it was probably sometime in 1973.

Paradise couldnā€™t even last half a decade.
I am wondering if virtual worlds might provide the mental freedom, room for creativity and a sense of purpose and relevance to people to combat this societal collapse in the hearts and minds of mankind. Of course the old traditional values we have evolved over thousands and millions of years would provide the ultimate foundation, but maybe it can make up in some small degree what Reality lacks in an increasingly over populated human society?
It probably happened because warnings of limited resources weren't heeded and birth control was not taught in schools.
 
It's just another way conservatives find to create out of predictions of doom a "justification" for the imposition of retrograde regulations under the threadbare banner of "traditional values".

You have it exactly backwards: Doomsday predictions (nuclear war, global warming/cooling, famine, etc.) are almost the exclusive province of the left. That is what causes them to come up with increasingly bizarre "solutions" to problems that may or may not exist.

The only doomsday conservatives fear is giving the left complete control to wreak their havoc.
 
metaphorically alarming Jim

~S~

No, it is not alarming, metaphorically or otherwise. It might be if rats where humankind's equivalent in terms of reasonable societal self-organization and planning, and if rats hadn't themselves demonstrated the ability to survive for tens of thousands of years and who knows for how many generations when in an environment to which they are adapted.

It's just another way conservatives find to create out of predictions of doom a "justification" for the imposition of retrograde regulations under the threadbare banner of "traditional values".

...
or you can try taking an intellectual approach instead of indulging in simple minded partisan finger pointing as you are doing.
 
Aren't there 'isolation chambers' that allow science to study humans in the same regard?

~S~
 
It's just another way conservatives find to create out of predictions of doom a "justification" for the imposition of retrograde regulations under the threadbare banner of "traditional values".
...
or you can try taking an intellectual approach instead of indulging in simple minded partisan finger pointing as you are doing.
They cant help it.

The left is Jacobin to the bone.
 
It's just another way conservatives find to create out of predictions of doom a "justification" for the imposition of retrograde regulations under the threadbare banner of "traditional values".

You have it exactly backwards: Doomsday predictions (nuclear war, global warming/cooling, famine, etc.) are almost the exclusive province of the left. That is what causes them to come up with increasingly bizarre "solutions" to problems that may or may not exist.

The only doomsday conservatives fear is giving the left complete control to wreak their havoc.
Yep, Olde Europe IS a bit dim. It's probably from the constant brainwashing they receive from our biased media. Poor thing........
 
I am skeptical about how many parralels there are between mice and men, but I suspect that there are some.

While I work on the assumption that all mankind is capable of reason and behaving rationally, I cant help wondering if maybe there could be some deeper psychological needs that vary from ethnicity to ethnicity that have other more subtle demands as well.

Doess anyone else have anything they might share?

The Doomed Mouse Utopia That Inspired the ā€˜Rats of NIMHā€™ - Atlas Obscura - Pocket

On July 9th, 1968, eight white mice were placed into a strange box at the National Institute of Health in Bethesda, Maryland. Maybe ā€œboxā€ isnā€™t the right word for it; the space was more like a room, known as Universe 25, about the size of a small storage unit. The mice themselves were bright and healthy, hand-picked from the instituteā€™s breeding stock. They were given the run of the place, which had everything they might need: food, water, climate control, hundreds of nesting boxes to choose from, and a lush floor of shredded paper and ground corn cob.

This is a far cry from a wild mouseā€™s lifeā€”no cats, no traps, no long winters. Itā€™s even better than your average lab mouseā€™s, which is constantly interrupted by white-coated humans with scalpels or syringes. The residents of Universe 25 were mostly left alone, save for one man who would peer at them from above, and his team of similarly interested assistants. They must have thought they were the luckiest mice in the world. They couldnā€™t have known the truth: that within a few years, they and their descendants would all be dead.

The man who played mouse-God and came up with this doomed universe was named John Bumpass Calhoun. As Edmund Ramsden and Jon Adams detail in a paper, ā€œEscaping the Laboratory: The Rodent Experiments of John B. Calhoun & Their Cultural Influence,ā€ Calhoun spent his childhood traipsing around Tennessee, chasing toads, collecting turtles, and banding birds. These adventures eventually led him to a doctorate in biology, and then a job in Baltimore, where he was tasked with studying the habits of Norway rats, one of the cityā€™s chief pests....

In 1947, to keep a close eye on his charges, Calhoun constructed a quarter-acre ā€œrat cityā€ behind his house, and filled it with breeding pairs. He expected to be able to house 5,000 rats there, but over the two years he observed the city, the population never exceeded 150. At that point, the rats became too stressed to reproduce. They started acting weirdly, rolling dirt into balls rather than digging normal tunnels. They hissed and fought.

This fascinated Calhounā€”if the rats had everything they needed, what was keeping them from overrunning his little city, just as they had all of Baltimore?

Intrigued, Calhoun built another, slightly bigger rat metropolisā€”this time in a barn, with ramps connecting several different rooms. Then he built another and another, hopping between patrons that supported his research, and framing his work in terms of population: How many individuals could a rodent city hold without losing its collective mind? By 1954, he was working under the auspices of the National Institute of Mental Health, which gave him whole rooms to build his rodentopias. Some of these featured rats, while others focused on mice instead. Like a rodent real estate developer, he incorporated ever-better amenities: climbable walls, food hoppers that could serve two dozen customers at once, lodging he described as ā€œwalk-up one-room apartments.ā€ Video records of his experiments show Calhoun with a pleased smile and a pipe in his mouth, color-coded mice scurrying over his boots.

Still, at a certain point, each of these paradises collapsed. ā€œThere could be no escape from the behavioral consequences of rising population density,ā€ Calhoun wrote in an early paper. Even Universe 25ā€”the biggest, best mousetopia of all, built after a quarter century of researchā€”failed to break this pattern. In late October, the first litter of mouse pups was born. After that, the population doubled every two monthsā€”20 mice, then 40, then 80. The babies grew up and had babies of their own. Families became dynasties, carving out and holding down the best in-cage real estate. By August of 1969, the population numbered 620.

Then, as always, things took a turn. Such rapid growth put too much pressure on the mouse way of life. As new generations reached adulthood, many couldnā€™t find mates, or places in the social orderā€”the mouse equivalent of a spouse and a job. Spinster females retreated to high-up nesting boxes, where they lived alone, far from the family neighborhoods. Washed-up males gathered in the center of the Universe, near the food, where they fretted, languished, and attacked each other. Meanwhile, overextended mouse moms and dads began moving nests constantly to avoid their unsavory neighbors. They also took their stress out on their babies, kicking them out of the nest too early, or even losing them during moves....

Population growth slowed way down again. Most of the adolescent mice retreated even further from societal expectations, spending all their time eating, drinking, sleeping and grooming, and refusing to fight or to even attempt to mate. (These individuals were forever changedā€”when Calhounā€™s colleague attempted to transplant some of them to more normal situations, they didnā€™t remember how to do anything.) In May of 1970, just under 2 years into the study, the last baby was born, and the population entered a swan dive of perpetual senescence. Itā€™s unclear exactly when the last resident of Universe 25 perished, but it was probably sometime in 1973.

Paradise couldnā€™t even last half a decade.
I am wondering if virtual worlds might provide the mental freedom, room for creativity and a sense of purpose and relevance to people to combat this societal collapse in the hearts and minds of mankind. Of course the old traditional values we have evolved over thousands and millions of years would provide the ultimate foundation, but maybe it can make up in some small degree what Reality lacks in an increasingly over populated human society?


I thought this was gonna be a thread about bushwick
 
When I was 5, I brought back a bunch of swallowtail caterpillars that were always thick on the Dutchman's pipe vines that grew next to the creek near my house. I set them up in a large box that I covered with cellophane and brought back fresh food for them to eat each day. I watched with excitement as they grew and then proceeded to spin their Chrysalises one after another until there were dozens of the things festooned on the withered stalks of the vines. One after another they began their metamorphosis until there were just a couple left. My amazement turned to horror, though, as I awoke one morning to carnage, which was still in progress as the last couple of black caterpillars had proceeded to eat the existing Chrysalises one after another before spinning their own.

As a 5 year old, I thought they were just being mean, but when I got older, I realized I had just received a lesson on nature's reaction to overcrowding.


Oh, and for Old Europe -- this is simply a tale from my youth that was elicited from the op and has no bearing on this little war you wage against anything even the tiniest step to the right of Che Guevara that you call "conservative".
 
You have it exactly backwards: Doomsday predictions (nuclear war, global warming/cooling, famine, etc.) are almost the exclusive province of the left. That is what causes them to come up with increasingly bizarre "solutions" to problems that may or may not exist.

The only doomsday conservatives fear is giving the left complete control to wreak their havoc.

Nuclear war / extinction is not a prediction, it is a real possibility, and over the last 60 years we were, repeatedly, just one human error or one hasty miscalculation away from it. As we are currently entering yet another nuclear arms race, that possibility is about to become more realistic. Global warming is not a prediction; it is humankind's prospect, as established by climate science. The only question is whether we find it in ourselves to do what's necessary to keep it in manageable confines. Famine is a fact of human history, and with a rapidly growing population, no end to wars and civil wars, and the steady loss of fertile soil, it is a very real possibility, again. Just look to Yemen for clues.

Conversely, the OP (not a lefty) picks an old experiment demonstrating that rats go extinct in an environment not suitable to them for some reason, and then moves on to muse about "this societal collapse" that needs to be fought on the basis of "the old traditional values", a doomsday prediction, as I said, used as an excuse to re-establish and re-impose "traditional values". Because otherwise... collapse.

Of course, that's about as "backwards" as it gets.

Traditional values would mean to keep women down, slaves in chains, gays in the closet, and white males in the driver's seat. Guess what, that's not going to happen. The cohort of age 20 to 50 would laugh anyone out of the room who would suggest the like, and those who come thereafter even more so.
 

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