Putin's Speech to Russia this evening

[ScreamingEagle]

Eagle - I never said we should get involved in the Russian-Chechin war in any way. I'm just trying to point out that sympathy for the Russians (as a peoples, not their individual loss) is misplaced when considering the overall picture.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, pure and simple. You make it sound like we need to support the side of evil in our war on "islamofascism". I simply point out that in this case, we should support neither side. We should see that both sides have resorted to evil. When we support the Russians we justify the Moslims in their belief that we are in fact trying to destroy their culture.

Believe me, I think Hillary in the White house would be about the worst thing that could happen to this country. Well, I take that back - Hillary in the white house with a democratic congress would be the worst thing that could happen. My point was that with the current policies and lack of forthought that I see going on in the current admininstration/congress - that is the possible backlash. I think Hillary will run in 2008, and I think she will choose any platform she thinks will get her elected, selfish or not.

Wade.

Sympathy for innocent children will always take precedence, especially when targeted as they were. If you are just looking at the Russian-Chechyan conflict alone, I can agree with you about not necessarily taking sides. This ongoing conflict has a long history that goes back for centuries.

However, the marks of International Islamofascism are all over this incident and to narrow your focus to just the local conflict is seriously myopic.

Well, I'm glad you see Hillary just like I do.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

The assertion that the Chechin war has been instigated by Moslims from outside Chechnya is false. They have been, in one form or another, fighting Russian rule since at least 1850.

But THIS incident was done with heaps of outside help and leadership. Go get informed then come try your luck again. Step right up. I'll guess your political leanings with 3 lbs. or you get a stuffed Osama doll.

But this is almost a good argument.

Hmm. Yours isn't.

If the Russians were not raping the region for its natural assets I could agree with it.

Is this rape like the N.O.W. hags believe all sex is rape? as in "not".

I could even accept the Russian war in Chechnya if not for their intentional slaughter of innocent civilians by the 10's of thousands. That is just evil and no "buffer country" argument justifies it for a second.

Wade.

You cannot dispute the outside involvement in this specific action. You're wrong.

 

[freeandfun1]

History of Chechnya

 

[wade]

Avenger - you're just too much of an idiot to bother replying to you anymore. I think your some snot nosed teen who has no real life experiance. Try going to the Egypt, Israel, Russia, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Phillapines, Korea, Japan, Columbia, Chile, and Brazil, and I don't mean as a sailor (as you are too insolated from the people), and then tell me about the world.

Until then, just shut up.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

Avenger - you're just too much of an idiot to bother replying to you anymore. I think your some snot nosed teen who has no real life experiance. Try going to the Egypt, Israel, Russia, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Phillapines, Korea, Japan, Columbia, Chile, and Brazil, and I don't mean as a sailor (as you are too insolated from the people), and then tell me about the world.

Until then, just shut up.

Wade.

guess we'll have to see what stance the Russian Orthodox Church takes. So far we've got all the western religions against the muslims.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Avenger - you're just too much of an idiot to bother replying to you anymore. I think your some snot nosed teen who has no real life experiance. Try going to the Egypt, Israel, Russia, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Phillapines, Korea, Japan, Columbia, Chile, and Brazil, and I don't mean as a sailor (as you are too insolated from the people), and then tell me about the world.

Until then, just shut up.

Wade.

Wade. I understand your upset at being trounced so hard core. I've bested you. Accept your defeat gracefully.

Dance,fool! Dance! Dance for my pleasure!
:firing:

 

[wade]

Wade. I understand your upset at being trounced so hard core. I've bested you. Accept your defeat gracefully.

Dance,fool! Dance! Dance for my pleasure!
:firing:

LOL - you have done no such thing. You simply lack the skill to put up enough of a fight to be worth my time anymore. You don't even bother to argue the points of discussion - you break into personal attacks because you are incapable of any other response.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

LOL - you have done no such thing. You simply lack the skill to put up enough of a fight to be worth my time anymore. You don't even bother to argue the points of discussion - you break into personal attacks because you are incapable of any other response.

No. You twist all logic, and historical context into one big antiamerican pretzel. You think that view is intellectually enlightened, but it's not. That's a common error, though. You are forgiven for your foolishness.
Kiss it, clyde. :moon4:

 

[dilloduck]

MOSCOW, Russia (CNN) -- Russian President Vladimir Putin has said that mid-level officials in the U.S. government were undermining his country's war on terrorism by supporting Chechen separatists, whom he compared to al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege.

Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom.

His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children.

In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person

(sorry for the piss poor posting--edited )

 

[deaddude]

Look Wade you have a point, The Russian shelling of Chechnya was wrong. Period. Children died then too.

Two wrongs do not make a right though, they specificaly targeted a school, If I were to realise that my little brother had been killed because some bastard had tried to make a point, I would want to find the ass, tear out his eyes and pour black mamba venom in the holes.

Grant it it was that kind of sentiment that started this whole Russo-Chechan war in the first place.

 

[freeandfun1]

Avenger - you're just too much of an idiot to bother replying to you anymore. I think your some snot nosed teen who has no real life experiance. Try going to the Egypt, Israel, Russia, Britain, France, Germany, Italy, the Phillapines, Korea, Japan, Columbia, Chile, and Brazil, and I don't mean as a sailor (as you are too insolated from the people), and then tell me about the world.

Until then, just shut up.

Wade.

Wade, you KNOW nothing about ANY of us. Do you assume you are the only one that has traveled abroad? I have been to Egypt, Japan, Korea, the Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, Vietnam, Brunei, China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Great Britain, Italy, Belgium, France, Germany, Thailand, Taiwan, Brazil, Mexico, the Dominican Republic, Cuba.... hell, I can't remember all the places I have been. So does that make ME an expert? (BTW: I didn't list Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, Iraq, Bahrain, UAE, or the Sinai as they were during my military service. The other places are places I have gone as a BUSINESSMAN. And most of those places I have been to MANY MANY times and have stayed for extended periods).

Traveling alone does not make one an expert just as reading a book doesn't either. For one to know what they are talking about, they must have a balanced experience.

You are not the ONLY person on these boards with experiences.

 

[wade]

Look Wade you have a point, The Russian shelling of Chechnya was wrong. Period. Children died then too.

Two wrongs do not make a right though, they specificaly targeted a school, If I were to realise that my little brother had been killed because some bastard had tried to make a point, I would want to find the ass, tear out his eyes and pour black mamba venom in the holes.

Grant it it was that kind of sentiment that started this whole Russo-Chechan war in the first place.

Yeah - someone gets it.

The Russians have specifically targeted areas where they knew civilians would be killed in mass. They have blocked them from leaving towns and cities and then shelled or bombed those cities. They have taken whole families and shot them, including the women and children. How is that different from the Chechin targeting of a school?

I totally agree the school atack is dispicable, I'm just trying to point out it is no more dispicable than what the Russians have been doing on a scale many times worse. The problem is most people on this msg board seem to think that if you specifically target a school that is wrong, but if you specifically target a town (including the schools) that is somehow not as bad.

At least the Chechin perpetrators of the school attack died in the action. The Russian soldiers who took whole families and shot them in their yards did not.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Yeah - someone gets it.

The Russians have specifically targeted areas where they knew civilians would be killed in mass. They have blocked them from leaving towns and cities and then shelled or bombed those cities. They have taken whole families and shot them, including the women and children. How is that different from the Chechin targeting of a school?

I totally agree the school atack is dispicable, I'm just trying to point out it is no more dispicable than what the Russians have been doing on a scale many times worse. The problem is most people on this msg board seem to think that if you specifically target a school that is wrong, but if you specifically target a town (including the schools) that is somehow not as bad.

At least the Chechin perpetrators of the school attack died in the action. The Russian soldiers who took whole families and shot them in their yards did not.

Wade.

Imagine that. Two libs agreeing.

 

[NATO AIR]

(its nice to be back on land in japan)

it all boils down to this:
the innocent russian children who were slaughtered in the school by Al-Queda and Chechen nationalist terrorists will join the innocent chechen children slaughtered by Russian state terrorism (indiscriminate bombing of cities and towns, rape, pillage and extermination of villages, etc etc) during the two wars fought in Chechnya in the past 15 years.

no one BUT THE CHILDREN have clean hands in this. to their credit, substantial portions of both the russian and chechen populations have already realized that justice and prosperity, not misguided war and terrorism, are the answers to the region's problems.

imagine the brave russians who just a few years after communism collapsed dared to challenge their government's conduct and handling of the first chechen war... those are patriots.

imagine the brave chechens who stood up to islamic fundamentalists, criminal warlords and fierce, corrupt separtists... those are patriots

i mention these two groups, because they are the ones whose clear and just voices will be drowned out in the coming weeks by the russians clamoring for revenge against the Chechen people and Islam, and those chechens celebrating and egging on more vengeful (and sick!) terrorist attacks against the russians.

i said this a few weeks ago, this whole mess (and what it is now) stems from two people: boris yeltsin (who missed all the danger signals for years and badly mishandled the war) and general dudayev (the insane! chechen separtist president, who turned his nation into a hotbed of islamic fundamentalism, criminal and terrorist activity.

putin will be spending years trying to clean up those two idiot's mess. and the russian people and the chechen people will pay the price.

 

[NATO AIR]

and one thing on putin

he better quit his support of nations like Iran, Syria and North Korea, nations who help train, arm and support terrorists like the school hostage killers.


no more arms sales, nuclear exchanges, none of that garbage. and if he means business, he better get real buddy buddy with the US and its allies and stop this french anti-american/anti-american policy bullshit

 

[wade]

Absolutely Nato.

This is my problem with the media induced response to the Chechin attack on the Russion school. While we should have sympathy for the loss of innocent life in Russia, we should do everything we can not to fan the fires of hatred. We need to realize both sides are guilty of atrocities and do everything we can to encourage Russia not to respond with another round of terror.

The cycle needs to end.

Wade.

 

[CSM]

Absolutely Nato.

This is my problem with the media induced response to the Chechin attack on the Russion school. While we should have sympathy for the loss of innocent life in Russia, we should do everything we can not to fan the fires of hatred. We need to realize both sides are guilty of atrocities and do everything we can to encourage Russia not to respond with another round of terror.

The cycle needs to end.

Wade.

So, if Russia does not respond, will the terrorists cease and desist? If Russia does pull its troops from Chechnya, will the terrorists be satisfied and then become model citizens and work for world peace in other areas?

I dont see that happening.

 

[wade]

I didn't say the Russians should not respond at all. Just that their response should not be another round of terror against the Chechin civilian population, which will only fuel the fire and make things worse for both sides.

Wade.

 

[dilloduck]

I didn't say the Russians should not respond at all. Just that their response should not be another round of terror against the Chechin civilian population, which will only fuel the fire and make things worse for both sides.

Wade.

If you were in charge of responding, what would you do?

 

[wade]

If you were in charge of responding, what would you do?

That would depend on lots of factors which I don't have info on, such as what group specifically was responsible, where they are based, who provides support for them, etc...

I'd try to figure out who was responsible and kill them of course. But I wouldn't send in the army, blockade people in a town, and then bomb and shell them indiscriminately, as the Russians have done in the past. I wouldn't send the army in with orders to take civilians out of their homes and shoot them in the streets as has been done in the past.

What would you do?

Wade.