Putin's Speech to Russia this evening

wade said:
I used "terrorism" as a term to describe that type of action. I never disagreed that the acts are barbarous - my point is that they are a response to acts of even greater barbarism carried out by the Russians.

I am against the subjugation of a peoples for the profit of another. That is what's going on here. It is the Russians who are the oppressors here, not the Chechins. I am against authoritarian rule - the chechins have no voice in their politics, they are an enslaved people and they have every right to rebel. Our country rebelled against British rule far less oppressive than what the Chechins have endured over the last decade under Russia, most of a Century before that under the Soviets, and quite a time before that under the Czar. The Chechins have just as much right to freedom as anyone else.

Are you for freedom or do you think enslavement is okay? It seems the latter.

Maybe you missed my post on the first page of this thread concerning the Russian atrocities in Chechnya?

Wade.

Hey Fool. All countries exploit their various regions. We exploit texas for oil, florida for oranges. Expolitiation is just a politicized word for economic integration. Get a clue.

Why are you such a staunch secessionist?
 
wade said:
I realize its pointless to try to explain this to you - you are just too stupid to understand. Just wasting my fingers on an empty head.

Wade.

Suggestion - give us all a break from your ridiculous "logic". Remove your fingers from the keyboard and stick them back up your nose where they may at least do a little good. I don't know about anyone else, but I'm sick of your apologist rationalizations and your pitiful attempts to justify terrorism.


:gross2:
 
rtwngAvngr said:
Hey Fool. All countries exploit their various regions. We exploit texas for oil, florida for oranges. Expolitiation is just a politicized word for economic integration. Get a clue.

Why are you such a staunch secessionist?

Oh but that is not the case in Chechnya at all.

The people of Texas are given the same rights as everyone else - to say they are being "exploited" when they choose to sell oil is just idiocy. The people of Texas are represented in the US government just like everyone else. This is not the case in Chechnya, the Chechins are accorded no meaningful representation in the Russian political system. They are not compensated fairly, in fact they are not really compensated at all, for the oil being taken from their lands by Russian overlords.

I believe that if a country has been subjugated by another it has a right to break free from that subjugation. Independance is critical to freedom.

This is not the case for a State in the USA because the states were never independant nations (not considering the plight of the native americans) and each and every one of them chose to be a part of the Union of their own free will. Once having freely made that choice, accepting the benefits of the union, they cannot later choose to secceed because they feel their contribution to the union at that time exceeds their benefits

The people of Texas were never an independant nation or peoples conquered by the USA. In fact the Texans wanted to be included as a state in the USA. The situation in Chechnya is in no way comparable to that of Texas, you prove your stupidity by even suggesting it is.

Wade.
 
wade said:
Oh but that is not the case in Chechnya at all.

The people of Texas are given the same rights as everyone else - to say they are being "exploited" when they choose to sell oil is just idiocy. The people of Texas are represented in the US government just like everyone else. This is not the case in Chechnya, the Chechins are accorded no meaningful representation in the Russian political system. They are not compensated fairly, in fact they are not really compensated at all, for the oil being taken from their lands by Russian overlords.

Also the people of Texas were never an independant nation or peoples conquered by the USA. In fact the Texans wanted to be included as a state in the USA. The situation in Chechnya is in no way comparable to that of Texas, you prove your stupidity by even suggesting it is.

Wade.

I think the oil should be used for the general good of the Russian People instead of used to line the pockets of a few theocratically oriented oil barons. Don't you?
:happy2:
 
wade said:
I used "terrorism" as a term to describe that type of action. I never disagreed that the acts are barbarous - my point is that they are a response to acts of even greater barbarism carried out by the Russians.
yet when the cherokee, sioux, and seminole struck out against acts of barbarism by the whites they were rounded up, driven out, and enslaved into reservations. Why is this ok?

wade said:
I am against the subjugation of a peoples for the profit of another. That is what's going on here. It is the Russians who are the oppressors here, not the Chechins. I am against authoritarian rule - the chechins have no voice in their politics, they are an enslaved people and they have every right to rebel. Our country rebelled against British rule far less oppressive than what the Chechins have endured over the last decade under Russia, most of a Century before that under the Soviets, and quite a time before that under the Czar. The Chechins have just as much right to freedom as anyone else.
Did russia attempt to build a wall around chechnya? Did they refuse chechnyans the opportunity to work, build homes, business's? No, they did not.

wade said:
Are you for freedom or do you think enslavement is okay? It seems the latter.
prejudicial assumption.
 
rtwngAvngr said:
I think the oil should be used for the general good of the Russian People instead of used to line the pockets of a few theocratically oriented oil barons. Don't you?
:happy2:

I think the oil should be used for the general good of the Chechin people, it's rightful owner, instead of Russian oil barons - don't you? I could probably accept its being used to benifit both the Chechins and the Russians, but that is not what is happening.

Look into what is really going on. A few Russians of power, mostly Mafioso types, are selling the the resources of Russia and placing the profits in Western banks. The Russian people are not getting any benifit from most of it, except perhaps a monthly paycheck if they are very lucky to labor to move the goods. Chechnya is just an extension of this, with the Russian army acting as enforcers for the few Russians who are robbing both Russia and Chechnya of their resources.

Why do you think the Russians have any right to the Chechin oil in the first place?

Wade.
 
wade said:
I think the oil should be used for the general good of the Chechin people, it's rightful owner, instead of Russian oil barons - don't you? I could probably accept its being used to benifit both the Chechins and the Russians, but that is not what is happening.

Look into what is really going on. A few Russians of power, mostly Mafioso types, are selling the the resources of Russia and placing the profits in Western banks. The Russian people are not getting any benifit from most of it, except perhaps a monthly paycheck if they are very lucky to labor to move the goods. Chechnya is just an extension of this, with the Russian army acting as enforcers for the few Russians who are robbing both Russia and Chechnya of their resources.

Why do you think the Russians have any right to the Chechin oil in the first place?

Wade.

Yeah well, the Gordian Knot of past wrongs is impossible to untie. Maybe they need a whole new constitution and a whole new set of private property rights for all citizens and corporations. The neocon sword of international freedom and justice will slice through the wrongdoings of the past. Wait and see. I'm not saying russia's perfect, but nothing justifies what these chechins LED BY ALQUAEDA AND INCLUDING TEN ARABS did.
 
wade said:
It's pretty hard for me to feel sorry for the poor Russians after what they have been doing for the last decade.

I dispute that this was an act of Terrorism as we've defined it here on this board. Rather, it was an act of revenge, a very different thing.

I agree these acts Terrorism are barbarous, but look at the overall picture - Russia has killed tens of thousands of civilians in it's war in Chechnya since the Soviet Union was disbanded.

I don't see how you can be so outraged by the recent revenge attack

You said "Nothing that the Russian government may or may not be doing in Chechnya justifies the cold-blooded, calculated murder of innocents, especially children". Perhaps not, but if anything does, it's the cold blooded calculated killing of innocents on such a scale as the Russians have conducted that might. Why does the Chechyn killing of a few innocent Russians outrage you but the Russian killing of thousands of innocent Chechins doesn't seem to bother you at all?

So you're saying you want the USA to become a terrorist nation like Russia?

I never said what the Chechin's did was right, only that in the face of such oppression as they have endured it is understandable.

I realize its pointless to try to explain this to you - you are just too stupid to understand. Just wasting my fingers on an empty head.

It is the Russians who are the bigger evil doer's in this situation. It is the Russians who hold an entire peoples in thrall. It is the Russians who, to a far far greater degree, are the killers of the innocent.

I used "terrorism" as a term to describe that type of action. I never disagreed that the acts are barbarous - my point is that they are a response to acts of even greater barbarism carried out by the Russians.

Wade.

Your words above. Besides being all over the map, it's pretty clear that you have found a way in your mind to justify the death of innocent kids, teachers and their families.

YOU miss the point of this whole discussion:

NO MATTER WHAT THE PERCEIVED INJUSTICE IS (REAL OR IMAGINED) THE DELIBERATE TARGETING AND SLAUGHTER OF CHILDREN IS SUB-HUMAN.

I don't think I ever condoned Russian action either way in Chechnya, but you made the assumption that I did. You're also real quick to call everyone stupid, or a "right winger", is this your knee jerk reaction with everyone who isn't wade?

Your still an appeaser and an apologist. Still want that plane ticket?
 
JIHADTHIS said:

Your words above. Besides being all over the map, it's pretty clear that you have found a way in your mind to justify the death of innocent kids, teachers and their families.


I have not justified it in any way. Understanding why someone commits an act of evil does equate to condoning it. Failure to understand simply ensures that it will happen again and again and again.

JIHADTHIS said:
YOU miss the point of this whole discussion:

NO MATTER WHAT THE PERCEIVED INJUSTICE IS (REAL OR IMAGINED) THE DELIBERATE TARGETING AND SLAUGHTER OF CHILDREN IS SUB-HUMAN.

JIHADTHIS said:
I don't think I ever condoned Russian action either way in Chechnya, but you made the assumption that I did. You're also real quick to call everyone stupid, or a "right winger", is this your knee jerk reaction with everyone who isn't wade?

No, I asked why you are not outraged by the Russian slaughter of thousands of innocents, but take such offense at the Chechin reprisal. You fail to answer. And again... you fail to answer the question.

It is you who keep calling me a "lefty" and a "liberal" as if these are insults. It is you people who have called me an idiot, a fool, etc... when I present arguments that you don't want to hear.

JIHADTHIS said:
Your still an appeaser and an apologist. Still want that plane ticket?

How am I an appeaser? Where have I ever suggested we appease anyone? How am I an apologist? It appears to me you're just a war monger and have no concern for justice - you will construe any situtation to fit your views and ignore the overall facts as it suits you.

I've been to that part of the world on Uncle Sam's dime, just as the SU was supposedly converting to "capitalism". I have no desire to ever go back - those people are so corrupt there is no hope for them.

Wade.
 
Wade. You are an appeaser and an apologist. You're also a moral relativist. The shiny wrapper is off your humdrum quotidian liberalism. We know who you are. You're just like all the others.
 
rtwngAvngr said:
Yeah well, the Gordian Knot of past wrongs is impossible to untie. Maybe they need a whole new constitution and a whole new set of private property rights for all citizens and corporations. The neocon sword of international freedom and justice will slice through the wrongdoings of the past. Wait and see. I'm not saying russia's perfect, but nothing justifies what these chechins LED BY ALQUAEDA AND INCLUDING TEN ARABS did.

Will you admit that Russia is the greater perpetrator of evil in the last 10 years in this situation with the Chechins?

The "gordian knot of past" can not be untied, but it can be cut. Why don't the Russians give up their possession countries and let them enjoy self-determination?

Why are you against freedom?

Wade.
 
wade said:
So it is not terrorism when the Russians shell Chechnyan towns but it is terrorism when Chechnyan's attack Russian civilian facilities?

Yep, i'd expect that - don't look at both sides and ignore or shout down opposing points of view. Apply human rights and justice selectively. Turn a blind eye to fruad and corruption if it suits your position.

Typical.

Wade.

Wade, you are a typical liberal hung up on definitions. Typically liberals can define themselves into or out of a corner at will, but it is only words. Liberals also have to cry about every injustice in this world and somehow blame America for it. What liberals need to do is face reality.

War is hell anyway you look at it. I agree that horrible things have occurred in the country of Russia just as you stated. However, the conflict in Russia with the Chechnyans is their affair and it has been going on for hundreds of years. We want no part of it. It's just that simple.

Yes, that is a "selfish" attitude we Americans take but we cannot be the police force for the entire world. We have our hands full already with our "War on Terror" which probably should be renamed more correctly as the "War on Islamofascism" which is why we are particularly concerned about what happened in Chechnya (aside from the horror of hundreds of tortured and killed children). International Islamofascists had a key hand in this particularly gruesome attack directed upon so many non-muslim children. That gets us interested in a big way.

We know which war we are waging, Wade. (is that enough W for you? ;) )
Don't you think that it's time you choose which side you are on as well? Or are you just participating in another slick liberal parsing of definitions of terror to aid your sick liberal party in its desire for appeasement?

Speaking of the economy, you are probably right that we will experience inflation in the coming years. However, this is not any reason to think that Hillary is going to put her fat ass in the Commander-in-Chief's chair unless the war is over, if then. Also, if she takes an isolationist stance, isn't that extremely "selfish" for a liberal? :poke:
 
rtwngAvngr said:
Wade. You are an appeaser and an apologist. You're also a moral relativist. The shiny wrapper is off your humdrum quotidien liberalism. We know who you are. You're just like all the others.

You have no morals or principals at all. All you do is use selective information to justify your pursuit of your own self interest. Who are you to judge me?

You can't hold up your end of an argument so you resort to name calling. You're a joke dude - your mama should have laid off the booze when you were in here womb - see I can be insulting too!
 
wade said:
Will you admit that Russia is the greater perpetrator of evil in the last 10 years in this situation with the Chechins?

The "gordian knot of past" can not be untied, but it can be cut. Why don't the Russians give up their possession countries and let them enjoy self-determination?

Why are you against freedom?

Wade.

I believe the Chechins and everyone in the region will be better off as part of a greater Russia. Can't you see that this was an act led by OUTSIDE influence, that of ALQUAEDA and ten other ARABS. This is just another facet of the islamofascist jihadi movement. The clue train is chugging along, next stops:wadesville.

Pardon moi, monsieur, Voulez-vous un billet?
 
wade said:
You have no morals or principals at all. All you do is use selective information to justify your pursuit of your own self interest. Who are you to judge me?
I'm your intellectual and ethical superior, knucklebiter.
You can't hold up your end of an argument so you resort to name calling. You're a joke dude - your mama should have laid off the booze when you were in here womb - see I can be insulting too!

But I have good arguments as well as colorful and inventive mild abjurations of your fetid belief system. You have nothing.
 
ScreamingEagle said:
Wade, you are a typical liberal hung up on definitions. Typically liberals can define themselves into or out of a corner at will, but it is only words. Liberals also have to cry about every injustice in this world and somehow blame America for it. What liberals need to do is face reality.

War is hell anyway you look at it. I agree that horrible things have occurred in the country of Russia just as you stated. However, the conflict in Russia with the Chechnyans is their affair and it has been going on for hundreds of years. We want no part of it. It's just that simple.

Yes, that is a "selfish" attitude we Americans take but we cannot be the police force for the entire world. We have our hands full already with our "War on Terror" which probably should be renamed more correctly as the "War on Islamofascism" which is why we are particularly concerned about what happened in Chechnya (aside from the horror of hundreds of tortured and killed children). International Islamofascists had a key hand in this particularly gruesome attack directed upon so many non-muslim children. That gets us interested in a big way.

We know which war we are waging, Wade. (is that enough W for you? ;) )
Don't you think that it's time you choose which side you are on as well? Or are you just participating in another slick liberal parsing of definitions of terror to aid your sick liberal party in its desire for appeasement?

Speaking of the economy, you are probably right that we will experience inflation in the coming years. However, this is not any reason to think that Hillary is going to put her fat ass in the Commander-in-Chief's chair unless the war is over, if then. Also, if she takes an isolationist stance, isn't that extremely "selfish" for a liberal? :poke:

Eagle - I never said we should get involved in the Russian-Chechin war in any way. I'm just trying to point out that sympathy for the Russians (as a peoples, not their individual loss) is misplaced when considering the overall picture.

Right is right and wrong is wrong, pure and simple. You make it sound like we need to support the side of evil in our war on "islamofascism". I simply point out that in this case, we should support neither side. We should see that both sides have resorted to evil. When we support the Russians we justify the Moslims in their belief that we are in fact trying to destroy their culture.

Believe me, I think Hillary in the White house would be about the worst thing that could happen to this country. Well, I take that back - Hillary in the white house with a democratic congress would be the worst thing that could happen. My point was that with the current policies and lack of forthought that I see going on in the current admininstration/congress - that is the possible backlash. I think Hillary will run in 2008, and I think she will choose any platform she thinks will get her elected, selfish or not.

As for deciding which side I'm on - I know this very clearly, I just don't like the position we've been put in. It was clear this was going to happen decades ago - I even wrote a junior thesis on the future war with Islam back in the early 80's. What I don't like is that we have been duped into having to make a choice between genocide or ruin. I think that in the end, we are going to have to effectively wipe out the Islamic culture and a very large part of its population. I also fear that this "war" is going to displace the USA from its leadership roll in the world - leaving China as the most powerful nation on earth - and that would be disasterous for everyone.

We are allowing a lesser threat to obscure a greater threat, and that is foolisness.

Wade.
 
Wade, THEY'RE trying to destroy western civilization. They think it's evil. They say it openly and plainly. If you refuse to listen, that's your problem. Actually it's mine to. I have a problem with you.
 
Wade:

The entire Chechen War of the last decade or so has been instigated by Muslims from OUTSIDE of Chechnya. Period, end of story.

I would feel for the Chechen's if they would kick out the Islamofacists that are directing their war against Russia. The war in Chechnya is not a true desire by the Chechen's to be free of Russia, it is being driving by a minority that wants to gain more ground for an ever expanding Muslim world. Russia saw this from the beginning and they will not accept it. Think of Chechnya as a buffer between Russia and the rest of the Muslim world to their south. Russia will not let Islamofacists grow in Chechnya, or any of the other "stans" that border their country. I guarantee it and I don't blame them.
 
rtwngAvngr said:
I believe the Chechins and everyone in the region will be better off as part of a greater Russia.

You must not know anything about modern Russia. It is a Mafioso government - the very few reap all the profits and move them out of the country as fast as they can, because they have no faith in the future of Russia. How is anyone "better off" under such rule?
 
freeandfun1 said:
Wade:

The entire Chechen War of the last decade or so has been instigated by Muslims from OUTSIDE of Chechnya. Period, end of story.

I would feel for the Chechen's if they would kick out the Islamofacists that are directing their war against Russia. The war in Chechnya is not a true desire by the Chechen's to be free of Russia, it is being driving by a minority that wants to gain more ground for an ever expanding Muslim world. Russia saw this from the beginning and they will not accept it. Think of Chechnya as a buffer between Russia and the rest of the Muslim world to their south. Russia will not let Islamofacists grow in Chechnya, or any of the other "stans" that border their country. I guarantee it and I don't blame them.

The assertion that the Chechin war has been instigated by Moslims from outside Chechnya is false. They have been, in one form or another, fighting Russian rule since at least 1850.

But this is almost a good argument. If the Russians were not raping the region for its natural assets I could agree with it. I could even accept the Russian war in Chechnya if not for their intentional slaughter of innocent civilians by the 10's of thousands. That is just evil and no "buffer country" argument justifies it for a second.

Wade.
 

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