Putin's Speech to Russia this evening

[Said1]

Global Jihad is correct. There are Chechen fighters in Afghanistan, pretty far from home if you ask me. Chechen rebels are made up of the biggest bloody thirsty animals I have ever seen in my life. They make Palistinian suicide bombers look like fluffy bunnies. Bloody bunch of savages. We have a few hidding here in Canada. The thought of my tax dollars going to their legal aid bill makes my head seriously hurt. Friggen Canadian government. :firing:

 

[JIHADTHIS]

I agree. These guys don't even bother to dispute the evidence, they just ignore it. I've shown them clearly that Russia is the agressor in the Chechin war, that Russia is by far the greater employer of terror, and that the civilian causalties are slanted thousands of Chechins for every single Russian civilian that has been killed, and that while Chechin terrorist activities are initiated by small unofficial groups, Russias terrorism is state sponsored.

It matters not, they cannot see the truth, they will not consider the issues, they only spout their right-wing diatribe like religion.

COME ON PEOPLE - THINK FOR YOURSELVES!

IF YOU WANT PEACE YOU MUST FIGHT FOR JUSTICE! OR APPEASE THE TERRORISTS SO THEY KILL ME LAST!

Wade.

Oh so clever....... We're all a bunch of "closed minded" right wingers
and your pompous ass knows all........

Hard to look in the mirror this morning knowing you condone the slaughter of children by your beloved Chechan "freedom fighters"? Maybe the board can take up a collection and buy you a one way ticket to North Ossetia and you can tell the families that it's their fault.

 

[Shazbot]

Hey, Wade...terrorism aside, what about the American Civil War? I am assuming you feel the Union was the oppressor and the Confederation was the innocent looking for freedom...right? That, at least, is all I can gather from your argument for Chechnya.

-Douglas

 

[Merlin1047]

I agree. These guys don't even bother to dispute the evidence, they just ignore it.

Wade, little buddy, just in case you didn't pick up on it - I was talking about YOU.

 

[wade]

I didn't miss what you were saying.

It doesn't change the facts.

 

[wade]

Oh so clever....... We're all a bunch of "closed minded" right wingers
and your pompous ass knows all........

Hard to look in the mirror this morning knowing you condone the slaughter of children by your beloved Chechan "freedom fighters"? Maybe the board can take up a collection and buy you a one way ticket to North Ossetia and you can tell the families that it's their fault.

You see you intentionally miss the point of my post. I never said what the Chechin's did was right, only that in the face of such oppression as they have endured it is understandable.

For every Russian civilian killed by a Chechin in the last 10 years, there are thousands of Chechin civilians killed by Russians.

Russian soldiers take whole families and make them kneel in front of their houses and put bullets in them - including the children and the elderly. Russian troops block Chechins from leaving a city or town and then call in massive airstrikes or artillary bombardments, killing hundreds or even thousands of children.

Why does this not outrage you? What is wrong with your sense of morality? Why does the killing of some children bother you but others not?

The answer is becomming all to clear - you guys are not only right-wingers, you're bigots and racists too!

Wade.

 

[Annie]

You see you intentionally miss the point of my post. I never said what the Chechin's did was right, only that in the face of such oppression as they have endured it is understandable.

For every Russian civilian killed by a Chechin in the last 10 years, there are thousands of Chechin civilians killed by Russians.

Russian soldiers take whole families and make them kneel in front of their houses and put bullets in them - including the children and the elderly. Russian troops block Chechins from leaving a city or town and then call in massive airstrikes or artillary bombardments, killing hundreds or even thousands of children.

Why does this not outrage you? What is wrong with your sense of morality? Why does the killing of some children bother you but others not?

The answer is becomming all to clear - you guys are not only right-wingers, you're bigots and racists too!

Wade.

You are crazy! There is nothing that justifies shooting over 150 children in the back, or even 1. You are a pitiful excuse for a human being.

 

[wade]

You are crazy! There is nothing that justifies shooting over 150 children in the back, or even 1. You are a pitiful excuse for a human being.

I never said there was. I said the Chechin hatred is understandable, not that the action is justified.

Again, why are you not outraged by the Russians shooting/burning/bombing thousands of Chechin children?

I am outraged by both things - but I realize that it will only continue to happen if we recognize the one as an act of evil while ignoring the other.

I realize its pointless to try to explain this to you - you are just too stupid to understand. Just wasting my fingers on an empty head.

Wade.

 

[JIHADTHIS]

Since we're too stupid to understand dear wade's assinine stements, maybe this times story will make him understand his moral bankruptcy?

Link to NY TIMES (reg required)

OP-ED COLUMNIST
Cult of Death
By DAVID BROOKS

Published: September 7, 2004

We've been forced to witness the massacre of innocents. In New York, Madrid, Moscow, Tel Aviv, Baghdad and Bali, we have seen thousands of people destroyed while going about the daily activities of life.

We've been forced to endure the massacre of children. Whether it's teenagers outside an Israeli disco or students in Beslan, Russia, we've seen kids singled out as special targets.

We should by now have become used to the death cult that is thriving at the fringes of the Muslim world. This is the cult of people who are proud to declare, "You love life, but we love death." This is the cult that sent waves of defenseless children to be mowed down on the battlefields of the Iran-Iraq war, that trains kindergartners to become bombs, that fetishizes death, that sends people off joyfully to commit mass murder.

This cult attaches itself to a political cause but parasitically strangles it. The death cult has strangled the dream of a Palestinian state. The suicide bombers have not brought peace to Palestine; they've brought reprisals. The car bombers are not pushing the U.S. out of Iraq; they're forcing us to stay longer. The death cult is now strangling the Chechen cause, and will bring not independence but blood.

But that's the idea. Because the death cult is not really about the cause it purports to serve. It's about the sheer pleasure of killing and dying.

It's about massacring people while in a state of spiritual loftiness. It's about experiencing the total freedom of barbarism - freedom even from human nature, which says, Love children, and Love life. It's about the joy of sadism and suicide.

We should be used to this pathological mass movement by now. We should be able to talk about such things. Yet when you look at the Western reaction to the Beslan massacres, you see people quick to divert their attention away from the core horror of this act, as if to say: We don't want to stare into this abyss. We don't want to acknowledge those parts of human nature that were on display in Beslan. Something here, if thought about too deeply, undermines the categories we use to live our lives, undermines our faith in the essential goodness of human beings.

Three years after Sept. 11, too many people have become experts at averting their eyes. If you look at the editorials and public pronouncements made in response to Beslan, you see that they glide over the perpetrators of this act and search for more conventional, more easily comprehensible targets for their rage.

The Boston Globe editorial, which was typical of the American journalistic response, made two quick references to the barbarity of the terrorists, but then quickly veered off with long passages condemning Putin and various Russian policy errors.

The Dutch foreign minister, Bernard Bot, speaking on behalf of the European Union, declared: "All countries in the world need to work together to prevent tragedies like this. But we also would like to know from the Russian authorities how this tragedy could have happened."

It wasn't a tragedy. It was a carefully planned mass murder operation. And it wasn't Russian authorities who stuffed basketball nets with explosives and shot children in the back as they tried to run away.

Whatever horrors the Russians have perpetrated upon the Chechens, whatever their ineptitude in responding to the attack, the essential nature of this act was in the act itself. It was the fact that a team of human beings could go into a school, live with hundreds of children for a few days, look them in the eyes and hear their cries, and then blow them up.

Dissertations will be written about the euphemisms the media used to describe these murderers. They were called "separatists" and "hostage-takers." Three years after Sept. 11, many are still apparently unable to talk about this evil. They (wade) still try to rationalize terror. What drives the terrorists to do this? What are they trying to achieve?

They're still victims of the delusion that Paul Berman diagnosed after Sept. 11: "It was the belief that, in the modern world, even the enemies of reason cannot be the enemies of reason. Even the unreasonable must be, in some fashion, reasonable."

This death cult has no reason and is beyond negotiation. This is what makes it so frightening. This is what causes so many to engage in a sort of mental diversion. They don't want to confront this horror. So they rush off in search of more comprehensible things to hate.

 

[Annie]

I think Brooks is the lone sane voice over at the NYT, Safire exempted of course. But too often he seems to be apologizing for being sane. Has to be a heck of a place to work.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

I realize its pointless to try to explain this to you - you are just too stupid to understand. Just wasting my fingers on an empty head.

Wade.

Speak to my friend Kathianne this way one more time, wade, and I'll put you through a gauntlet you'll never forget. You'll be begging for mercy, licking my boots at the end of the ordeal. Just a head's up for you.

 

[DKSuddeth]

I dispute that this was an act of Terrorism as we've defined it here on this board. Rather, it was an act of revenge, a very different thing.

The Chechin's have a long history of savage oppression by Russian rulers dating back to the Czar and including the Soviet Union through all its leaders, especially Joseph Stalin's forcible deportations. Today young Chechen men are the primary targets for arrest, torture and disappearance in Russia's harsh crackdown on separatist movements. Thousands of women who've lost their husbands and brothers to Russian murder are willing to give up their lives in revenge by suicide bombings.

I'm sure that all those kids 10 yrs of age and under(you know, the ones that were shot in the back running away in fear) were happy to order the russian soldiers off to a bloody war with chechnya.

How would you suggest the Chechyns fight for their freedom? I agree these acts Terrorism are barbarous,

In the top portion of your post you disputed that this was an act of terrorism, but NOW you agree these acts of terrorism are barbarous? I'm starting to think that you're just dead set against anything that remotely resembles authoritative rule. Are you an anarchist? So far all you've done is show people you're for nothing but total war, chaos, and destruction.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Are any of you watching the anti-terror demonstrations in Russia? The sleeping bear has awakened, and it's pissed! Good.

 

[dilloduck]

Are any of you watching the anti-terror demonstrations in Russia? The sleeping bear has awakened, and it's pissed! Good.

I just hope they have a longer memory than a lot of Americans !!

 

[MtnBiker]

Are any of you watching the anti-terror demonstrations in Russia? The sleeping bear has awakened, and it's pissed! Good.

Anti-terror ? no that is a war mongering demostrations.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

Anti-terror ? no that is a war mongering demostrations.

Yes , that swaggering bully Putin, invented this war in Texas!

 

[wade]

Since we're too stupid to understand dear wade's assinine stements, maybe this times story will make him understand his moral bankruptcy?

You just refuse to understand. I am in no way saying that the Chechin killing of innocents is a good or right thing.

What I am saying is that there are two sides to this tradgedy, and you are ignoring the bigger part. I've given you evidence of what is really going on, but you're replies (and Kathianne's) indicate that you simply cannot accept the truth. Not once have you even acknowleged the Russian slaughter of Chechin civilians.

How many times will you refuse to answer the question "Why are you outraged by the Chechin killing of a few hundred innocent Russian civilians but not outraged by the Russian killing of 10's of thousands of Chechin civilians?".

It is the Russians who are the bigger evil doer's in this situation. It is the Russians who hold an entire peoples in thrall. It is the Russians who, to a far far greater degree, are the killers of the innocent. Why do you support this?

It is you who are morally bankrupt. It is clear that your morality is for sale - because Putin claims to be on our side in the "war on terror" you will give him a carte-blanch to wage a war of terror on a massive scale. Either that, or you are just stupid and cannot understand what is right in front of your face.

Wade.

 

[wade]

Are any of you watching the anti-terror demonstrations in Russia? The sleeping bear has awakened, and it's pissed! Good.

You idiot - the "sleeping bear" has not been sleeping at all. It's been eating Chechin's for more than a century, and has been especially hungry in the last decade.

Short of using WMD's, there is not much more the Russians could do to destroy the Chechins in their genocidal war.

Wade.

 

[rtwngAvngr]

You idiot - the "sleeping bear" has not been sleeping at all. It's been eating Chechin's for more than a century, and has been especially hungry in the last decade.

Short of using WMD's, there is not much more the Russians could do to destroy the Chechins in their genocidal war.

Wade.

Hey Fool. All countries exploit their various regions. We exploit texas for oil, florida for oranges. Expolitiation is just a politicized word for economic integration. Get a clue.

Why are you such a staunch secessionist?

 

[wade]

I'm sure that all those kids 10 yrs of age and under(you know, the ones that were shot in the back running away in fear) were happy to order the russian soldiers off to a bloody war with chechnya.

I'm sure that all those kids of 10 years of age or younger who have been shot in the back by Russian soldiers in their homes were happy to send their mothers and fathers and cousins to die killing those Russian kids.


In the top portion of your post you disputed that this was an act of terrorism, but NOW you agree these acts of terrorism are barbarous? I'm starting to think that you're just dead set against anything that remotely resembles authoritative rule. Are you an anarchist? So far all you've done is show people you're for nothing but total war, chaos, and destruction.

I used "terrorism" as a term to describe that type of action. I never disagreed that the acts are barbarous - my point is that they are a response to acts of even greater barbarism carried out by the Russians.

I am against the subjugation of a peoples for the profit of another. That is what's going on here. It is the Russians who are the oppressors here, not the Chechins. I am against authoritarian rule - the chechins have no voice in their politics, they are an enslaved people and they have every right to rebel. Our country rebelled against British rule far less oppressive than what the Chechins have endured over the last decade under Russia, most of a Century before that under the Soviets, and quite a time before that under the Czar. The Chechins have just as much right to freedom as anyone else.

Are you for freedom or do you think enslavement is okay? It seems the latter.

Maybe you missed my post on the first page of this thread concerning the Russian atrocities in Chechnya?

Wade.