Punished by Rewards

[Unkotare]

Kid's end up feeling as though they are good people only when they are praised, only when they are compliant. Then they have no sense of ownership over their accomplishments.

There is a reason why self-indulgent fools like you would last about five minutes in a state of nature.

 

[Sky Dancer]

It took Rosenberg a couple of hours to help the pedophile see what his needs were. If anyone had asked this guy what his needs were before he started molesting kids he may have chosen a different path.

 

[daveman]

consider the story of tom sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

yeah, my landlord will not accept a good feeling i get for doing a good job at work. He wants money.

Is that unreasonable of him?

no.

Then it looks like the article in the OP is crap, doesn't it?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Sure. It's entirely feasible that just because the man happens to reside in prison, that he is incapable of insight into his behavior. Marshall Rosenberg tells the story of his conversation with a imprisoned pedophile in his book, Speaking Peace. This guy was on his third prison stint for his behavior.

Yep, that is what I said, he is incapable of insight.

For the record, what I said is that his insight is based on outside incentives to confirm to expected norms because of the carrot/stick incentive structure of prison.

You're assuming the guy's insight would in any way mitigate his punishment. The answer is not.

The insights nonetheless are of benefit to anyone who'd like to prevent someone like him from acting out.

There are all sorts of ways his "insight" can mitigate his punishment, let me describe just one. Prisons are not air conditioned, which makes them very hot and muggy in the summer. The area of the prison where doctors are located are air conditioned. All that new insight allows him to spend extra time in air conditioning and out of the heat.

Carrots and sticks Sky, carrots and sticks.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It took Rosenberg a couple of hours to help the pedophile see what his needs were. If anyone had asked this guy what his needs were before he started molesting kids he may have chosen a different path.

Wow, Rosenberg is so brilliant he cured a pedophile in just two hours.

Does anyone else see why I think he is full of shit?

 

[Sky Dancer]

It took Rosenberg a couple of hours to help the pedophile see what his needs were. If anyone had asked this guy what his needs were before he started molesting kids he may have chosen a different path.

Wow, Rosenberg is so brilliant he cured a pedophile in just two hours.

Does anyone else see why I think he is full of shit?

I didn't say the pedophile was cured. I said that Rosenberg helped the pedophile get clear on what his needs were, the reason why he acted out with children.

I said that if someone had helped the pedophile long before he molested children by helping him find out what his needs were, perhaps, he wouldn't have engaged in such costly negative behavior.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Yep, that is what I said, he is incapable of insight.

For the record, what I said is that his insight is based on outside incentives to confirm to expected norms because of the carrot/stick incentive structure of prison.

You're assuming the guy's insight would in any way mitigate his punishment. The answer is not.

The insights nonetheless are of benefit to anyone who'd like to prevent someone like him from acting out.

There are all sorts of ways his "insight" can mitigate his punishment, let me describe just one. Prisons are not air conditioned, which makes them very hot and muggy in the summer. The area of the prison where doctors are located are air conditioned. All that new insight allows him to spend extra time in air conditioning and out of the heat.

Carrots and sticks Sky, carrots and sticks.

The insight is in no way going to mitigate his punishment. He broke the law and needs to pay the penalty for that.

I would never advocate giving this guy a release from his sentence because of his insight. All I'm saying is that if someone had helped this pedophile, (who was himself a victim of another pedophile), to know what he needed, he may have found a less costly way to himself and others to meet his needs besides breaking the law and harming children.

 

[koshergrl]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Tom used lies and trickery to "motivate". Are you suggesting we substitute honesty and consequence with lying and deception?

Of course you are.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Tom used lies and trickery to "motivate". Are you suggesting we substitute honesty and consequence with lying and deception?

Of course you are.

The Tom Sawyer story shows that by demonstrating to other children what appeared to be intrinsically motivated in him, whitewashing the fence, he created an intrinsic desire in other children to white wash the fence. The children were so interested in the intrinsic motivation Tom appeared to have in white washing the fence, that they all paid him for the opportunity to try it.

When children find their own intrinsic motivation for doing a task they do it for much longer than they do with extrinsic motivation like praise or blame.

Tom did not use praise or blame. No carrot or stick. He made the task itself appealing for it's own sake.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Praise is a verbal reward, often doled out in an effort to change someone's behavior, typically someone with less power. More to the point, it's likely to be experienced as controlling regardless of the praiser's intention. Praise is a pat on the head, "pat" being short for "patronizing," that's offered when the child (or student or employee) impresses or pleases the parent (or teacher or manager). Like other forms of reward (or punishment), it's a way of "doing to," rather than "working with," people. My value judgment is that the latter is more respectful and therefore preferable to the former.

Value judgments aside, though, praise has very real and unfortunate effects -- again, just like other types of rewards. It tends to reduce the recipient's interest in the task, or commitment to the action, that elicited the praise. Often it also reduces the quality of whatever was done. The effect of a "Good job!" is to devalue the activity itself -- reading, drawing, helping -- which comes to be seen as a mere means to an end, the end being to receive that expression of approval. If approval isn't forthcoming next time, the desire to read, draw, or help is likely to diminish. Praise isn't feedback (which is purely informational); it's a judgment -- and positive judgments are ultimately no more constructive than negative ones.

Some years after laying out these concerns, I came to realize that praise was troubling in yet another way: It signals conditional acceptance. Children learn that they're valued -- and, by implication, valuable -- only when they live up to the standards of a powerful other. Attention, acknowledgment, and approval must be earned by doing a "job" that someone else decides is "good." Thus, positive reinforcement is not only different from, but antithetical to, the unconditional care that children need: to be loved just for who they are, not for what they do. It's no surprise that this strategy was designed to elicit certain behaviors rather than to promote children's psychological health.

Alfie Kohn

 

[psikeyhackr]

I wonder how many teachers like their jobs because of the control it gives them over children? And how many disciplinary problems are the result of children resenting that control.

Sit quietly in class while being bored out of your skull over junk that is too easy or totally uninteresting.

What is academic success? So I got straight A's in chemistry. I haven't used it in 30 years. The people who made the electronic components I've worked with used it.

psik

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It took Rosenberg a couple of hours to help the pedophile see what his needs were. If anyone had asked this guy what his needs were before he started molesting kids he may have chosen a different path.

Wow, Rosenberg is so brilliant he cured a pedophile in just two hours.

Does anyone else see why I think he is full of shit?

I didn't say the pedophile was cured. I said that Rosenberg helped the pedophile get clear on what his needs were, the reason why he acted out with children.

I said that if someone had helped the pedophile long before he molested children by helping him find out what his needs were, perhaps, he wouldn't have engaged in such costly negative behavior.

What on Earth makes you think he didn't know before then? Pedophiles get endless hours of counseling once they are caught, and are even taught how to talk to counselors to tell them whet they want to hear. You work with felons, you know they understand how the system works.

 

[Unkotare]

I wonder how many teachers like their jobs because of the control it gives them over children? And how many disciplinary problems are the result of children resenting that control.

Sit quietly in class while being bored out of your skull over junk that is too easy or totally uninteresting.

What is academic success? So I got straight A's in chemistry. I haven't used it in 30 years. The people who made the electronic components I've worked with used it.

psik

And you read science fiction books, right? Never heard that one from you before...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

You're assuming the guy's insight would in any way mitigate his punishment. The answer is not.

The insights nonetheless are of benefit to anyone who'd like to prevent someone like him from acting out.

There are all sorts of ways his "insight" can mitigate his punishment, let me describe just one. Prisons are not air conditioned, which makes them very hot and muggy in the summer. The area of the prison where doctors are located are air conditioned. All that new insight allows him to spend extra time in air conditioning and out of the heat.

Carrots and sticks Sky, carrots and sticks.

The insight is in no way going to mitigate his punishment. He broke the law and needs to pay the penalty for that.

I would never advocate giving this guy a release from his sentence because of his insight. All I'm saying is that if someone had helped this pedophile, (who was himself a victim of another pedophile), to know what he needed, he may have found a less costly way to himself and others to meet his needs besides breaking the law and harming children.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you fell better, I know better.

 

[Sky Dancer]

There are all sorts of ways his "insight" can mitigate his punishment, let me describe just one. Prisons are not air conditioned, which makes them very hot and muggy in the summer. The area of the prison where doctors are located are air conditioned. All that new insight allows him to spend extra time in air conditioning and out of the heat.

Carrots and sticks Sky, carrots and sticks.

The insight is in no way going to mitigate his punishment. He broke the law and needs to pay the penalty for that.

I would never advocate giving this guy a release from his sentence because of his insight. All I'm saying is that if someone had helped this pedophile, (who was himself a victim of another pedophile), to know what he needed, he may have found a less costly way to himself and others to meet his needs besides breaking the law and harming children.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you fell better, I know better.

You know what better? You don't know my mind better than I know it. Or are you passing yourself off as omniscient these days?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

The insight is in no way going to mitigate his punishment. He broke the law and needs to pay the penalty for that.

I would never advocate giving this guy a release from his sentence because of his insight. All I'm saying is that if someone had helped this pedophile, (who was himself a victim of another pedophile), to know what he needed, he may have found a less costly way to himself and others to meet his needs besides breaking the law and harming children.

You can tell yourself that if it makes you fell better, I know better.

You know what better? You don't know my mind better than I know it. Or are you passing yourself off as omniscient these days?

I know what makes life easier for prisoners, and what makes it worse.

 

[Sky Dancer]

You can tell yourself that if it makes you fell better, I know better.

You know what better? You don't know my mind better than I know it. Or are you passing yourself off as omniscient these days?

I know what makes life easier for prisoners, and what makes it worse.

There is no worse life in prison than that of a three time convicted pedophile. That guy may spend the rest of his life in prison getting continually raped and beaten, but he at least now knows what needs he was trying to fulfill in such an unacceptable, illegal and immoral way.

Rosenberg merely helped him understand himself for the first time in his life.

 

[psikeyhackr]

And you read science fiction books, right? Never heard that one from you before...

Well you have to select those science fiction books. Most of them are garbage.

That was the problem looking back on it. No good information from adults. Memorize how to spell words that you never use. They had us hide under desks but we never had to spell fission or fusion. I learned those from sci-fi books.

Try this one:
Omnilingual (1957) by H. Beam Piper
Scientific Language: H. Beam Piper
Omnilingual - Henry Beam Piper | Feedbooks
LibriVox » Omnilingual by H Beam Piper

It is only 100 kilobytes. Compare it to 6,000 kilobytes of Harry Potter.

2. WHY SCIENCE FICTION IS "GOOD TO THINK WITH" - SCIENCE FICTION AS 'THOUGHT EXPERIMENT'

Creative forms such as science fiction can offer a wider field, when we are concerned with critiquing and unpacking techno scientific practices, cultures and knowledge. Furthermore, as "cross-cultural" narrative in encounters between the humanities and sciences - this conjunction of disciplines figured by the term science fiction - bears re-examination as a resource for Science Studies, and a potential mediator in science-humanities dialogues which could illuminate the social and cultural meanings and consequences of scientific research(Merrick, 2005, Gough, 2006).

A basic element of science fiction is the challenges and the questioning articulated in its reading process whose necessary and sufficient conditions are the presence and interaction of
estrangement and cognition or cognition effect (Freedman, 2000:16-23). As theoretical models – abstract constructions of subject, of representation – become fleshed out in the particularized worlds of the science fiction imagination, science fiction articulates and explores those models through its narrative experiments and, in the ongoing dialectical relationship between abstraction and concretization science fiction continues to influence the development of the new worlds and the new futures. The mixing of science fictions with science 'facts' and theories serves the immediate function of undermining universal claims to 'truth', and in emphasizing narrativity, it potentially opens up scientific discourses to challenge and interpretation. In this essence, science fiction is called upon as useful space, "reading practice"or "dream laboratory" in which to reflect upon and engage with scientific cultures, practices and knowledges and configures a more productive interaction relation between fictional and theoretical writings on science, especially in the field that opposes the authority of the natural sciences as "crafts for distinguishing between fact and fiction"

http://uoa.academia.edu/Constantine...entifically_and_Politically_Literate_Citizens

psik

 

[Unkotare]

Your problem is that you were just too much of a hidden genius for a 'system of education.'

 

[daveman]

I wonder how many teachers like their jobs because of the control it gives them over children? And how many disciplinary problems are the result of children resenting that control.

Sit quietly in class while being bored out of your skull over junk that is too easy or totally uninteresting.

psik

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDl6iuku_mw]Pink Floyd - Another Brick in the Wall, Part 2 - YouTube[/ame]