Punished by Rewards

[Sky Dancer]

Alfie Kohn is an educator that wrote a book saying that all forms of reward and punishment are manipulation and should be abandoned in education.

Judging people does not help them.

"Alfie Kohn shows that while
manipulating people with incentives seems
to work in the short run, it is a strategy that
ultimately fails and even does lasting harm.
Our workplaces and classrooms will continue
to decline, he argues, until we begin to
question our reliance on a theory of motivation
derived from laboratory animals.
Drawing from hundreds of studies, Kohn
demonstrates that people actually do inferior
work when they are enticed with
money, grades, or other incentives. Programs
that use rewards to change people's
behavior are similarly ineffective over the
long run. Promising goodies to children for
good behavior can never produce anything
more than temporary obedience. In fact,
the more we use artificial inducements to
motivate people, the more they lose interest
in what we're bribing them to do. Rewards
turn play into work, and work into drudgery.
http://www.deming.ch/Alfie_Kohn/E_Reward.pdf

I first heard about Alfie Kohn from Marshall Rosenberg's book, Speaking Peace. Rosenberg teachs non-violent communication.

Anyone like to discuss NVC in schools and Alfie Kohn's ideas?

 

[chanel]

I disagree. There are too many factors that influence behavior, school success, and ultimately job satisfaction.

We live in a competitive world. Teaching children that they will be rewarded for good grades and good behavior is important. Eliminating rewards will only benefit those who never receive them.

And even if the only benefit is "temporary obedience", as a classroom teacher I will say "I'll take that".

 

[Mad Scientist]

We should apply the same thing to everyones job, then we'll see just how effective it is.

"In and effort to increase production and efficiency, we will be removing such incentives as Pay and Time Off". You think the Unions would go for that?

Also, non-violent communication is fine when the person you're talking to is non-violent but if they get violent, THEN what you gonna' do?

See, that's where the 2nd Amendment comes in.

 

[Sky Dancer]

The point is that reward and punishment, carrot and stick, only works for the short term. Non-violent communication works much more effectively. You teach a person how to get their needs met with less cost.

 

[California Girl]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

 

[Toro]

The point is that reward and punishment, carrot and stick, only works for the short term. Non-violent communication works much more effectively. You teach a person how to get their needs met with less cost.

My needs are to get paid more. I do that by being better than others. It's more costly to use non-violent communication. "You're wonderful and I respect you" does not substitute for a bank account full of cash.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

 

[California Girl]

Great idea, let's not teach our kids that they need to compete. That'll work out real well - in the la-la-land that Sky lives in.

Consider the story of Tom Sawyer. Tom motivated an entire community of children to white wash the fence for him.

Tom didn't offer any rewards to the children. In fact, they paid him to let them white wash the fence for him. He made the task of whitewashing the fence attractive in his attitude toward it. He made white washing the fence with joy something difficult to attain. He made work play.

Consider.... real life.

The End.

 

[chanel]

Fiction. How does Kohn feel about punishment? My guess is that the same logic would apply. Could you imagine a world where there are no consequences for bad behavior? I can.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Imagine a world where you actually found out what need a person was trying to fulfill by an unskillful action and teaching that person how he can better meet his needs with less cost.

It's time to stop treating human beings like lab rats.

 

[Sky Dancer]

An elderly man harassed by taunts of neighborhood children devises a scheme. He offers to pay each child a dollar to return on Tuesday and yell insults again. Of course, the children show up eagerly and receive the money, but he tells them he will only pay them 25 cents tomorrow. When they returned on Wednesday, he paid them their quarters and informed them that Thursday's rate would be a penny. Forget it, they said, and never returned to taunt him again.

You can make people do something by paying them but you can't make them want to do something by paying them.

We are talking about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

 

[Sherry]

Anything taken to the extreme in either direction can become unhealthy and/or unrealistic. We shouldn't ignore the competitive spirit that is part of our human nature, and that which motivates it to produce the best results. Everything in balance.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Wouldn't you rather have someone working for intrinsic rewards? That's where all innovation comes from. Creativity doesn't occur with someone beating you with a stick or shoving a carrot in your face.

 

[Zoom-boing]

When my oldest was in first grade she came home one day with some stickers and a piece of candy. When I asked where she had gotten them she said from the teacher. For what, I asked. Because everyone did their homework.



They got rewarded for doing what they were suppose to do, for what was expected of them? I never got that and never agreed with it but it happened an awful lot through the school years.

Rewarding for excelling or as a 'hey, you really did great this semester' type thing? Ok. But for doing what you're suppose to do? Not so much.

Same for punishment. For failing a test? No, but get involved and get the kid back on track. For a whole semester of failing? Yup. Just went through this with the youngest. Yeah, she lost that trip to Outter Banks because she failed to do what was expected of her. It remains to be seen if this will improve her attitude/work next year though.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What is needed is an alternative to both ways of controlling people through reward and punishment. Even praise can be a verbal bribe that gets people hooked on approval. If a person feels controlled during an experience they will come to remember or view this experience as unpleasurable despite the reward given.

Wouldn't you rather do something for the intrinsic feelings of pride, accomplishment, and self affirmation?

 

[Sherry]

What is needed is an alternative to both ways of controlling people through reward and punishment. Even praise can be a verbal bribe that gets people hooked on approval. If a person feels controlled during an experience they will come to remember or view this experience as unpleasurable despite the reward given.

You really are ignoring the human condition...we naturally crave approval, and there is nothing wrong with being inspired by it. Again, not taking it to extremes and everything in balance.

 

[Sky Dancer]

What is needed is an alternative to both ways of controlling people through reward and punishment. Even praise can be a verbal bribe that gets people hooked on approval. If a person feels controlled during an experience they will come to remember or view this experience as unpleasurable despite the reward given.

You really are ignoring the human condition...we naturally crave approval, and there is nothing wrong with being inspired by it. Again, not taking it to extremes and everything in balance.

Do you want to foster creativity or obedience? Would you rather be intrinsically motivated or controlled by a carrot and stick?

 

[Sky Dancer]

In one of Kohn’s examples, children in a small town were given points for every books they checked out of the local library during the summer vacation. The points could be redeemed for a free pizza, in an attempt to encourage reading.

The children in the program did indeed read more books than other children. But after the program ended, when reading no longer paid off in pizza, those children read far fewer books than others. Their own intrinsic desire to read books had been subsumed by the extrinsic reward, and when the pizza went away, so did the motivation.


I am so totally persuaded by this method that I asked my wife to take down the treasure box charts we keep for our kids at home. According to the treasure chest method, if Avery is good by doing her chores and reading books, she gets to advance a square until she eventually reaches a treasure chest square and gets a prize from the dollar store. Seems to work well, but not really. She despises cleaning and it’s always a big struggle.

Today we were doing some cleaning and I made no mention of a reward. The only reward was that I tried to make cleaning fun by cleaning beside her and talking with her. She was Cinderella mopping the floor and loved it. After we finished cleaning one bathroom, she asked if we could clean the other.


Punishing by Rewards — Motivational Techniques That Don’t Work | I'd Rather Be Writing

 

[Amelia]

 

[Sherry]

What is needed is an alternative to both ways of controlling people through reward and punishment. Even praise can be a verbal bribe that gets people hooked on approval. If a person feels controlled during an experience they will come to remember or view this experience as unpleasurable despite the reward given.

You really are ignoring the human condition...we naturally crave approval, and there is nothing wrong with being inspired by it. Again, not taking it to extremes and everything in balance.

Do you want to foster creativity or obedience?

Knock it off with the tunnel vision, sky...don't pretend that people aren't motivated to exceed by any number of stimuli. You would suck at being part of a sports team.