Punished by Rewards

[Quantum Windbag]

I can understand that it is difficult to consider new ideas. This is a new idea. Carrot and stick do not produce creativity.

Intrinsic motivation does.

Difficult to consider new ideas?

For you it appears to be difficult to consider multiple ideas at once.

Different children respond to different incentives, and different ways of nurturing. Different adults do also. You present an interesting idea. We're taking the easy way out if we send our children off to library programs and don't ourselves model the benefits of reading in our own daily lives.

But that doesn't mean there is not a place in society for the kind of rewards you eschew.

I don't think your topic received what some would call a "fair" hearing. However, it did receive the hearing which people have been conditioned to give you due to your past tunnel vision and dead horse beating.

This topic is about Kohn's theory on motivation.

Actually, it isn't. The topic here is about your belief that Kohn's findings support Rosenberg's postulate about non violent communication.

It doesn't.

 

[Sky Dancer]

No, we just draw different conclusion, windbag. And in typical fashion, you knee jerk reject any new ideas.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Self-motivated kids achieve more, perceive themselves to be more competent, and are less anxious. A wide body of research shows that when kids find an activity or task that they inherently like doing—such as reading or helping another kid—and then an adult comes along and starts offering rewards for doing that activity, the external rewards have an undermining effect, making them like doing the activity less.
Punished by Rewards? | Greater Good

Quite true, as far as it goes. The problem here is what happens after a self motivated child becomes an adult and obtains all of his goals, a college degree, a good job, and a family. If your way worked they wouldn't need therapy at that point, but most of them do.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I'm very interested in Kohn's work. I'd rather see people motivated internally then externally. How about you? You'd rather have power over others or have people empowered to do their best because they love it? I go for the love of it all the time.

I've been part of a sport's team and I don't suck at it. I enjoy it.

Internal carrots are still carrots, which just proves how absurd it is to attempt to apply Kohn's findings the way you are.

Would you rather grow human beings who are self-motivated or who have to be continually manipulated to do anything by reward and punishment?

I choose intrinsic motivation every time. I started this thread out of the joy of sharing a new idea. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I heard about this way of thinking from Marshall Rosenberg who teaches Non-Violent Communication.

I would rather grow human beings that can adapt to circumstances, learn from mistakes, and seek the rewards that they desire, whatever they are.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No, it's not about teaching people to be selfish, it's about teaching people to be self-motivated.

Some of us are self-motivated out of altruism. It feels good to us to do things for others benefit.

That beats being told to do it, or forced to do it, or threatened to do it. Doing things out of love rather than fear, out of interest and curiosity and joy of the challenge.

Self motivation is a form of self reward. It is no more effective in the long term than any other method of rewarding people for desirable behavior. The real secret to motivating people is it cannot be done.

Was Einstein motivated by extrinsic or intrinsic rewards?

How would I know, I never met him. Neither have you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Self-motivated kids achieve more, perceive themselves to be more competent, and are less anxious. A wide body of research shows that when kids find an activity or task that they inherently like doing—such as reading or helping another kid—and then an adult comes along and starts offering rewards for doing that activity, the external rewards have an undermining effect, making them like doing the activity less.
Punished by Rewards? | Greater Good

Quite true, as far as it goes. The problem here is what happens after a self motivated child becomes an adult and obtains all of his goals, a college degree, a good job, and a family. If your way worked they wouldn't need therapy at that point, but most of them do.[/QUOTE]
That's your opinion. It's an unsupportable statement. "most"? How many is that? Where is your proof?

 

[Quantum Windbag]

No, we just draw different conclusion, windbag. And in typical fashion, you knee jerk reject any new ideas.

That was really funny.

I am not rejecting a new idea, he published the book 10 years ago. I just had more time to think about it than you, giving me a better understanding of its flaws.

 

[alan1]

I'm so sorry that you aren't interested in discussing the topic. You'd rather resort to name calling.

Sad.

You're either a phony, or attempting some sarcasm.

I just want to discuss the topic without name calling. Try it Sherry. It makes posting much more enjoyable.

An elderly man harassed by taunts of neighborhood children devises a scheme. He offers to pay each child a dollar to return on Tuesday and yell insults again. Of course, the children show up eagerly and receive the money, but he tells them he will only pay them 25 cents tomorrow. When they returned on Wednesday, he paid them their quarters and informed them that Thursday's rate would be a penny. Forget it, they said, and never returned to taunt him again.

You can make people do something by paying them but you can't make them want to do something by paying them.

We are talking about the difference between intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.

If I pay you a dollar per post today, then a quarter per post on Monday, than offer a penny per post on Tuesday, will you go away?

Tell you what. I'll put you on ignore. Then you'll be out of my sight.

Except when somebody points out how ridiculous your premise is (using your own example), then you want to ignore them.
I'm not surprised.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Kohn's work is compatible with Non-Violent Communication. That's why I'm interested in it.

I was very surprised to hear Rosenberg use this intrinsic motivation approach with a repeat child abuse offender. His idea was to find what was motivating the pedophile, and to help him find better ways to meet his needs at less cost to himself and others.

In this case, it's not that the law is replaced. The child abuser is still in prison, where he belongs. It's that now, we all understand more about why people do the unthinkable. The child abuser has more insight into himself and we have more insight into his behavior.

 

[alan1]

I'm very interested in Kohn's work. I'd rather see people motivated internally then externally. How about you? You'd rather have power over others or have people empowered to do their best because they love it? I go for the love of it all the time.

I've been part of a sport's team and I don't suck at it. I enjoy it.

Internal carrots are still carrots, which just proves how absurd it is to attempt to apply Kohn's findings the way you are.

Would you rather grow human beings who are self-motivated or who have to be continually manipulated to do anything by reward and punishment?

I choose intrinsic motivation every time. I started this thread out of the joy of sharing a new idea. I don't expect everyone to agree with me. I heard about this way of thinking from Marshall Rosenberg who teaches Non-Violent Communication.

And anybody with a different opinion should be ignored. I guess others aren't allowed to share their thoughts and opinions.

How patronizing of you. I'll just put you on ignore anyway Sherry.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Am I saying spontaneous rewards are bad? No. When we spontaneously celebrate accomplishments, there is no attempt to control.

The person didn't know he or she would get a reward for complying so he or she didn't experience the feeling of being manipulated.

 

[Amelia]

If you love NVC so much, why don't you practice it?

If you modeled it for us, perhaps that would help us with our internal motivation.


Preaching it but not practicing is doing the cause more harm than good as it adds to resistance to the ideas you present.

 

[alan1]

Am I saying spontaneous rewards are bad? No. When we spontaneously celebrate accomplishments, there is no attempt to control.

The person didn't know he or she would get a reward for complying so he or she didn't experience the feeling of being manipulated.

OK, now I get it.
You are operating under the perception that manipulation is bad. It actually isn't a bad word. Do you think Buddha didn't use manipulation?

 

[Sky Dancer]

If you love NVC so much, why don't you practice it?

If you modeled it for us, perhaps that would help us with our internal motivation.


Preaching it but not practicing is doing the cause more harm than good as it adds to resistance to the ideas you present.

Well, I'm not accomplished at it. It's not like I can learn it without talking about it. I doubt anyone here has the patience for me to learn it. I will learn it, but it's number three on my list of training goals. Focusing and Embodied Life are in spots one and two.

What it would involve is learning about what myself and others need and then determining how to meet those needs in a win win way.

It also involves understanding that some behavior occurs that isn't desirable, but is the best way a person knows how to meet their needs.

Let's say I have a need to share something I'm newly learning about, so I start a thread about it. Someone else comes into the thread with a different need. I don't know what those needs are unless I ask everyone. Some people don't know what they need, but have to be helped to figure it out.

You have to learn what your needs and values are to switch your behavior over to a Non-Violent Communication model.

I'm very newly learning about this--instrinsic motivation and Non-violent Communication.

I could start with you, Amelia. What needs of yours are satisfied by posting in this thread? What are your values?

 

[Cenotaph]

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Wait... and your method is not?

 

[Sky Dancer]

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Wait... and your method is not?

We are all born with the inner desire for freedom. We don't like to be restricted or controlled. We want to determine our own destiny. This is human nature.

Anytime we try to control another person's behavior, no matter how subtly, we are discounting the person's right to their autonomy. Even rewarding is a subtle attempt to control another person's behavior. The people who are most susceptible to this are those with a high need for freedom. They will smell the manipulation attempt from a mile away and will resist your attempts to control them.

We are all born with a desire to accomplish things. Traditional manipulative methods of reward and punishment have reduced that desire.

 

[Cenotaph]

It's too bad you can't write a post without using an insult. I'd much rather discuss this interesting topic on it's own merit.

Extrinsic rewards are manipulative. They work in the short term, but not in the long term.

Intrinsic rewards work more effectively. This is a paradigm shift in education. It's the direction I'd like to increasingly move my own life toward.

Life affirming, not manipulation by carrot and stick.

Wait... and your method is not?

We are all born with the inner desire for freedom. We don't like to be restricted or controlled. We want to determine our own destiny. This is human nature.

Anytime we try to control another person's behavior, no matter how subtly, we are discounting the person's right to their autonomy. Even rewarding is a subtle attempt to control another person's behavior. The people who are most susceptible to this are those with a high need for freedom. They will smell the manipulation attempt from a mile away and will resist your attempts to control them.

We are all born with a desire to accomplish things. Traditional manipulative methods of reward and punishment have reduced that desire.

That didn't quite answer my question.

 

[Sky Dancer]

A student asked his Zen master how long it would take to reach enlightenment. “Ten years,” the master said. But, the student persisted, what if he studied very hard? “Then 20 years,” the master responded. Surprised, the student asked how long it would take if he worked very, very hard and became the most dedicated student in the Ashram. “In that case, 30 years,” the master replied. His explanation: “If you have one eye on how close you are to achieving your goal, that leaves only one eye for your task.”

 

[Amelia]

If you love NVC so much, why don't you practice it?

If you modeled it for us, perhaps that would help us with our internal motivation.


Preaching it but not practicing is doing the cause more harm than good as it adds to resistance to the ideas you present.

Well, I'm not accomplished at it. I doubt anyone here has the patience for me to learn it.

What it would involve is learning about what myself and others need and then determining how to meet those needs in a win win way.

It also involves understanding that some behavior occurs that isn't desirable, but is the best way a person knows how to meet their needs.

Let's say I have a need to share something I'm newly learning about, so I start a thread about it. Someone else comes into the thread with a different need. I don't know what those needs are unless I ask everyone. Some people don't know what they need, but have to be helped to figure it out.

You have to learn what your needs and values are to switch your behavior over to a Non-Violent Communication model.

I'm very newly learning about this--instrinsic motivation and Non-violent Communication.

I could start with you, Amelia. What needs of yours are satisfied by posting in this thread? What are your values?

I'm not interested in NVC. Not to the extent that I wish to discuss it with you.

I was somewhat interested in the idea about the sometimes paradoxical relationship between reward and motivation. My interest in that was dampened by my realization that the topic seemed to be just another way for you to preach about the NVC you don't seem to grasp at all.


My interest at the time I began posting in the thread was to back up Sherry's moderate and rational input. I had sent her a rep. Then on a whim I posted my snarky little cartoon. So then I decided to post something more constructive, to make my support of Sherry public and because I felt a little sorry about the cartoon.


I've made my support for Sherry's input clear and I don't foresee any other needs of mine being met by active participation in the thread. Not ruling it out, but don't see it as likely.



By the way, in case you haven't noticed, your repeated references to NVC are not conducive to good discussions. Perhaps it would be helpful if you would practice it for a few months without talking about it with political forumites who have all-too-often seen you make public resolutions only to break them in very short order. Your public resolutions seem counterproductive in general. This one seems so in particular.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Wait... and your method is not?

We are all born with the inner desire for freedom. We don't like to be restricted or controlled. We want to determine our own destiny. This is human nature.

Anytime we try to control another person's behavior, no matter how subtly, we are discounting the person's right to their autonomy. Even rewarding is a subtle attempt to control another person's behavior. The people who are most susceptible to this are those with a high need for freedom. They will smell the manipulation attempt from a mile away and will resist your attempts to control them.

We are all born with a desire to accomplish things. Traditional manipulative methods of reward and punishment have reduced that desire.

That didn't quite answer my question.

That may be true. I have a problem with calling this topic a "method". You can tap someone's motivation, in other words, but you can’t “motivate them.” You can support autonomy.