Pro-Russian Protesters Declare Eastern Ukraine a Separatist Republic

[Steinlight]

Your assessment that it is better to be in a union with Russia is a bit off. Russia has no industry (except military hardware) that is able to compete internationally. The revenues that the country enjoys are largely based on the sale of raw materials and petroleum products and are controlled by a select few friends of Putin. Much of the country's wealth is being siphoned off by these same cronies. Corruption at every level in Russia is endemic and nothing points to that changing.

Regarding the Eurasian Union that seems to be Putin's ambition to mask a renewal of the old Soviet Union, former Soviet Bloc countries are not rushing to join for a very simple reason - this Union favors Russia at the expense of other member nations.

The Ukraine will be bled dry by Russia if given an opportubity to do so. Given the choice Ukrainians will be significantly better off working with other European nations than it would be working with Russia.

.

You act as though having an abundance of natural resources and minerals is a weakness. Unless the whole world moves to windmills tomorrow, Russia will remain a strong and growing economy. LNG is the future, and eventually it will overtake oil as it is cleaner burning and cheaper overall. Russia has an abundance of LNG. So as the west becomes less dependent on Middle Eastern Oil, they(Europe) will grow in dependence on Russian LNG.

Also, a strong energy sector results in growth in other sectors of the domestic economy. Having a strong natural resource base, a strong energy sector, is the foundation for a strong economy. This is exemplified by the fact that since 1999, when Putin came into power, Russia has seen positive economic growth every year(minus 2009) due to an strong energy sector.
GDP growth (annual %) | Data | Table

Income disparities are on the rise in Europe and the US as well, corruption is rampant in the West as well(just look at the multi-trillion dollar banker bailouts)I don't really see your point there.

Also, Ukraine's corruption levels are on par with Nigeria or the Central African Republic. Not only is it the most corrupt state in Europe, but one of the most corrupt in the world. They are far more corrupt than Russia. So saying certain sections of Ukraine oppose Russia due to it's supposed corruption is laughable.

Which nations don't want to trade with Russia in the former Soviet Bloc? Can you list them?

Ukraine is being bled dry by the EU and IMF, already if that is your concern. Russia would not have impose austerity measures in their debt deal.

Ukraine Welcomes IMF Austerity Regime - Forbes

Ukraine parliament passes austerity bill required by IMF ? RT News

17 December 2013 Ukrainian?Russian action plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I think that's it. The chances of the Ukraine doing a Poland or Czech Republic turnaround are very slim imo. It's cultural. And that strikes me as both interesting and sad, because once, maybe 150 years ago, there was some thought that a Poland Ukraine union would create a nation large enough to survive the Bear and German Empire.

A Poland Ukraine Union at this point would be very unlikely, considering the antagonism between Poles and western Ukrainians due to ethnic strife and atrocities on both sides during World War Two.

Funny thing is, Western Ukraine(Galicia) was part of Poland and Austria for hundreds of years(ruled by Austrian and Polish Lords, along with Ukrainian Catholics), thus developing a catholic and more central european character, different from the rest of Ukraine. Funny thing is that separate character led eventually to an antagonism against not only the Russians and eastern Ukrainians, but the Poles.

 

[Steinlight]

Your assessment that it is better to be in a union with Russia is a bit off. Russia has no industry (except military hardware) that is able to compete internationally. The revenues that the country enjoys are largely based on the sale of raw materials and petroleum products and are controlled by a select few friends of Putin. Much of the country's wealth is being siphoned off by these same cronies. Corruption at every level in Russia is endemic and nothing points to that changing.

Regarding the Eurasian Union that seems to be Putin's ambition to mask a renewal of the old Soviet Union, former Soviet Bloc countries are not rushing to join for a very simple reason - this Union favors Russia at the expense of other member nations.

The Ukraine will be bled dry by Russia if given an opportubity to do so. Given the choice Ukrainians will be significantly better off working with other European nations than it would be working with Russia.

.

You act as though having an abundance of natural resources and minerals is a weakness. Unless the whole world moves to windmills tomorrow, Russia will remain a strong and growing economy. LNG is the future, and eventually it will overtake oil as it is cleaner burning and cheaper overall. Russia has an abundance of LNG. So as the west becomes less dependent on Middle Eastern Oil, they(Europe) will grow in dependence on Russian LNG.

Also, a strong energy sector results in growth in other sectors of the domestic economy. Having a strong natural resource base, a strong energy sector, is the foundation for a strong economy. This is exemplified by the fact that since 1999, when Putin came into power, Russia has seen positive economic growth every year(minus 2009) due to an strong energy sector.
GDP growth (annual %) | Data | Table

Income disparities are on the rise in Europe and the US as well, corruption is rampant in the West as well(just look at the multi-trillion dollar banker bailouts)I don't really see your point there.

Also, Ukraine's corruption levels are on par with Nigeria or the Central African Republic. Not only is it the most corrupt state in Europe, but one of the most corrupt in the world. They are far more corrupt than Russia. So saying certain sections of Ukraine oppose Russia due to it's supposed corruption is laughable.

Which nations don't want to trade with Russia in the former Soviet Bloc? Can you list them?

Ukraine is being bled dry by the EU and IMF, already if that is your concern. Russia would not have impose austerity measures in their debt deal.

Ukraine Welcomes IMF Austerity Regime - Forbes

Ukraine parliament passes austerity bill required by IMF ? RT News

17 December 2013 Ukrainian?Russian action plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me start with your first point that I put in bold above. Despite Russia's wealth of natural resources those revenues have been squandered and will continue to be because of cronic corruption - Russia is ranked 133 out of 176 nations - countries that ranked #1 were Denmark followed closely by countries like Norway and Finland.

Russia has trouble simply paying Russian pensions:

"With an effectively bankrupt state pension fund and a rapidly aging population, the Kremlin's ability to prevent a full-blown pension crisis will require a huge influx of gold and hard currency reserves. The regime needs to implement deep institutional reforms to create a better investment climate and diversify the economy if it is to survive as an economic superpower."

Russia's Dependence on Energy Consumption

If oil prices drop - and this is a very real possibility - Russia's dependence on oil prices staying around $100 a barrel, would be pushed towards recession if oil were to return to below $80 a barrel:

"Twelve years ago, the Russian federal budget balanced at $22 per barrel for oil. Today it is at $110 per barrel, said Bensh, who has been leading oil and gas companies in Ukraine for 13 years."

"“Imagine a fall to $80 per barrel and the concomitant affect that would have on an already recessed Russian economy, its balance sheet and its markets. At $80 or lower, the Russian economy would head deeper into recession, the budget and current accounts would run significant deficits, capital flight would accelerate markedly, depleting FX reserves and putting hefty downside pressure on the [Russian] ruble.”"

US Using Oil to Fight Russian Gas Politics in Ukraine?

Smaller oil producing nations could weather a drop in oil prices - Russia can't.

.

I don't see anything to suggest a pension crisis. To give an idea, they have decreased their debt to GDP ratio from 22.3% in 2005 to 8.4% today. The US debt to GDP ratio is over 100%. Russia is in a position right now where even if demand for their energy products decreases, they have a manageable debt to deal with a downturn. I would take western media outlets with a grain of salt. They don't exactly have a great track record of economic predictions(see 2008)
Russia Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts | Calendar
United States | Economic Indicators

As an America, I am more worried about the collapse of the dollar. Also, look at how Russia is a top buyer of gold globally. He is also with other BRICs(Brazil, China, India, South Africa) nations looking to leave the dollar for rubles for their foreign settlements. This can threaten the US Dollar are the global reserve currency and thus risk putting our economy in a deeper hole
Putin Turns Black Gold to Bullion as Russia Outbuys World - Bloomberg
Russia to switch to ruble settlements with Europe? - English pravda.ru

 

[Steinlight]

Meanwhile China is eating Russia's lunch:

"Some Chinese strategists also see Putin's Crimea incursion as challenging Beijing's growing interest in the region. Over the past five years, China has replaced Russia as the dominant foreign presence in Central Asia, through energy deals, extensive oil and gas pipelines, and foreign investment."

China stands to benefit as Russia clashes with West over Ukraine | South China Morning Post

Too funny.

.

China and India are supporting Russia over the Crimea incident by refusing to condemn the referendum and opposing sanctions. US intervention around the world seems to be pushing major economic powers away from us and over to Russia. I wouldn't laugh about that from a US geopolitical standpoint. Not a good development at all.
India Will Not Support Western Sanctions Against Russia | The Diplomat

 

[The Rabbi]

Sure there are. Ukraine is part of the their Near abroad. NATO hasn't gotten the memo that the Cold War is over. The US should have as much interest in the Ukraine as the Russians would have in Alabama. None. Zilch. Zip.

Alabama is a separate country? Who knew?

Okay, Weisenheimer, the US should have as much interest in the Ukraine as the Russians would have in Chihuahua or Sonora.

Chihuaha and Sonora are sovereign countries? Who knew???

 

[Decus]

Meanwhile China is eating Russia's lunch:

"Some Chinese strategists also see Putin's Crimea incursion as challenging Beijing's growing interest in the region. Over the past five years, China has replaced Russia as the dominant foreign presence in Central Asia, through energy deals, extensive oil and gas pipelines, and foreign investment."

China stands to benefit as Russia clashes with West over Ukraine | South China Morning Post

Too funny.

.

China and India are supporting Russia over the Crimea incident by refusing to condemn the referendum and opposing sanctions. US intervention around the world seems to be pushing major economic powers away from us and over to Russia. I wouldn't laugh about that from a US geopolitical standpoint. Not a good development at all.
India Will Not Support Western Sanctions Against Russia | The Diplomat

India and China have made little effort to support Russia.

"India did not join the Western powers’ condemnation of Russia’s intervention in Crimea and kept a low profile on the issue."

"The Ministry of External Affairs on March 6 issued neutral comment expressing concern for the fate of “more than 5000 Indian nationals” in Ukraine and called for “sincere and sustained diplomatic efforts to ensure that issues between Ukraine and its neighbouring countries are resolved through constructive dialogue”. "

"China was the only U.N. Security Council member to abstain on a U.S.-tabled draft resolution criticising Russia for Crimea. Thirteen Security Council members supported the resolution, which was vetoed by Russia."


Putin thanks India for its stand on Ukraine - The Hindu

The Russian spin is that India and China are supporting Putin, the reality is very different.

.

 

[Steinlight]

Meanwhile China is eating Russia's lunch:

"Some Chinese strategists also see Putin's Crimea incursion as challenging Beijing's growing interest in the region. Over the past five years, China has replaced Russia as the dominant foreign presence in Central Asia, through energy deals, extensive oil and gas pipelines, and foreign investment."

China stands to benefit as Russia clashes with West over Ukraine | South China Morning Post

Too funny.

.

China and India are supporting Russia over the Crimea incident by refusing to condemn the referendum and opposing sanctions. US intervention around the world seems to be pushing major economic powers away from us and over to Russia. I wouldn't laugh about that from a US geopolitical standpoint. Not a good development at all.
India Will Not Support Western Sanctions Against Russia | The Diplomat

India and China have made little effort to support Russia.

"India did not join the Western powers’ condemnation of Russia’s intervention in Crimea and kept a low profile on the issue."

"The Ministry of External Affairs on March 6 issued neutral comment expressing concern for the fate of “more than 5000 Indian nationals” in Ukraine and called for “sincere and sustained diplomatic efforts to ensure that issues between Ukraine and its neighbouring countries are resolved through constructive dialogue”. "

"China was the only U.N. Security Council member to abstain on a U.S.-tabled draft resolution criticising Russia for Crimea. Thirteen Security Council members supported the resolution, which was vetoed by Russia."


Putin thanks India for its stand on Ukraine - The Hindu

The Russian spin is that India and China are supporting Putin, the reality is very different.

.

I don't see how you quote that and come to your conclusion that India and China aren't moving towards Russia, since they rejected US sanctions, and refused to condemn Russia. No spin there except from you.

The fact is, the US is losing diplomatic respect, and thus negotiating strength, by the day through it's actions in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Combine this with cuts to defense and American forces being spread thin in unnecessary quagmires throughout the world, spells bad for US Hegemony. The unipolar world of the post Cold War eta is ending.

 

[Decus]

You act as though having an abundance of natural resources and minerals is a weakness. Unless the whole world moves to windmills tomorrow, Russia will remain a strong and growing economy. LNG is the future, and eventually it will overtake oil as it is cleaner burning and cheaper overall. Russia has an abundance of LNG. So as the west becomes less dependent on Middle Eastern Oil, they(Europe) will grow in dependence on Russian LNG.

Also, a strong energy sector results in growth in other sectors of the domestic economy. Having a strong natural resource base, a strong energy sector, is the foundation for a strong economy. This is exemplified by the fact that since 1999, when Putin came into power, Russia has seen positive economic growth every year(minus 2009) due to an strong energy sector.
GDP growth (annual %) | Data | Table

Income disparities are on the rise in Europe and the US as well, corruption is rampant in the West as well(just look at the multi-trillion dollar banker bailouts)I don't really see your point there.

Also, Ukraine's corruption levels are on par with Nigeria or the Central African Republic. Not only is it the most corrupt state in Europe, but one of the most corrupt in the world. They are far more corrupt than Russia. So saying certain sections of Ukraine oppose Russia due to it's supposed corruption is laughable.

Which nations don't want to trade with Russia in the former Soviet Bloc? Can you list them?

Ukraine is being bled dry by the EU and IMF, already if that is your concern. Russia would not have impose austerity measures in their debt deal.

Ukraine Welcomes IMF Austerity Regime - Forbes

Ukraine parliament passes austerity bill required by IMF ? RT News

17 December 2013 Ukrainian?Russian action plan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Let me start with your first point that I put in bold above. Despite Russia's wealth of natural resources those revenues have been squandered and will continue to be because of cronic corruption - Russia is ranked 133 out of 176 nations - countries that ranked #1 were Denmark followed closely by countries like Norway and Finland.

Russia has trouble simply paying Russian pensions:

"With an effectively bankrupt state pension fund and a rapidly aging population, the Kremlin's ability to prevent a full-blown pension crisis will require a huge influx of gold and hard currency reserves. The regime needs to implement deep institutional reforms to create a better investment climate and diversify the economy if it is to survive as an economic superpower."

Russia's Dependence on Energy Consumption

If oil prices drop - and this is a very real possibility - Russia's dependence on oil prices staying around $100 a barrel, would be pushed towards recession if oil were to return to below $80 a barrel:

"Twelve years ago, the Russian federal budget balanced at $22 per barrel for oil. Today it is at $110 per barrel, said Bensh, who has been leading oil and gas companies in Ukraine for 13 years."

"“Imagine a fall to $80 per barrel and the concomitant affect that would have on an already recessed Russian economy, its balance sheet and its markets. At $80 or lower, the Russian economy would head deeper into recession, the budget and current accounts would run significant deficits, capital flight would accelerate markedly, depleting FX reserves and putting hefty downside pressure on the [Russian] ruble.”"

US Using Oil to Fight Russian Gas Politics in Ukraine?

Smaller oil producing nations could weather a drop in oil prices - Russia can't.

.

I don't see anything to suggest a pension crisis. To give an idea, they have decreased their debt to GDP ratio from 22.3% in 2005 to 8.4% today. The US debt to GDP ratio is over 100%. Russia is in a position right now where even if demand for their energy products decreases, they have a manageable debt to deal with a downturn. I would take western media outlets with a grain of salt. They don't exactly have a great track record of economic predictions(see 2008)
Russia Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts | Calendar
United States | Economic Indicators

As an America, I am more worried about the collapse of the dollar. Also, look at how Russia is a top buyer of gold globally. He is also with other BRICs(Brazil, China, India, South Africa) nations looking to leave the dollar for rubles for their foreign settlements. This can threaten the US Dollar are the global reserve currency and thus risk putting our economy in a deeper hole
Putin Turns Black Gold to Bullion as Russia Outbuys World - Bloomberg
Russia to switch to ruble settlements with Europe? - English pravda.ru

This from the Russian press agency TASS:

"The pension system remains the worst problem of the Russian economy. It is experiencing an acute crisis and in its present form it has no future. Most experts believe that in the current shape the Russian pension system is not viable, and nobody has the slightest idea of how to go about the business of transforming it without a social explosion."


"But for the high oil prices, the situation in the Russian pension system would be truly disastrous."

ITAR-TASS ? Expert Opinions

"Siluanov singled out defense spending and transfers to Russia’s Pension Fund, which runs a large deficit, as two of the biggest pressures on the budget."

Russia Expects ?Big Problems? for Budget After 2016 ? Minister | Business | RIA Novosti

Funny that the Russian economy was showing signs of trouble and the concern of many Russians was evident until a couple of months ago. The Russian economy is in fact going to get worse but most Russians are so focused on Crimea that they have forgotten the economy - for the moment.

.

 

[Decus]

China and India are supporting Russia over the Crimea incident by refusing to condemn the referendum and opposing sanctions. US intervention around the world seems to be pushing major economic powers away from us and over to Russia. I wouldn't laugh about that from a US geopolitical standpoint. Not a good development at all.
India Will Not Support Western Sanctions Against Russia | The Diplomat

India and China have made little effort to support Russia.

"India did not join the Western powers’ condemnation of Russia’s intervention in Crimea and kept a low profile on the issue."

"The Ministry of External Affairs on March 6 issued neutral comment expressing concern for the fate of “more than 5000 Indian nationals” in Ukraine and called for “sincere and sustained diplomatic efforts to ensure that issues between Ukraine and its neighbouring countries are resolved through constructive dialogue”. "

"China was the only U.N. Security Council member to abstain on a U.S.-tabled draft resolution criticising Russia for Crimea. Thirteen Security Council members supported the resolution, which was vetoed by Russia."


Putin thanks India for its stand on Ukraine - The Hindu

The Russian spin is that India and China are supporting Putin, the reality is very different.

.

I don't see how you quote that and come to your conclusion that India and China aren't moving towards Russia, since they rejected US sanctions, and refused to condemn Russia. No spin there except from you.

The fact is, the US is losing diplomatic respect, and thus negotiating strength, by the day through it's actions in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Combine this with cuts to defense and American forces being spread thin in unnecessary quagmires throughout the world, spells bad for US Hegemony. The unipolar world of the post Cold War eta is ending.

China abstained on a resolution condemning Russia for its actions in Crimea. Abstained - did not vote. Not the action of an ally. China has no love for Russia but has used the Russians when it has suited them.

 

[1776]

Dumbfuck....I know what is going on "inside" Ukraine, Germany, Russia, etc....

None of you know what I know, you're just an idiot compared to me.

To sum up the stupidity of tinydancer, she sides with Russians that claim it was "US trained snipers" killing people in Kyiv during the protests, not the FSB and Ukraine secret police....

Unlike yourself tinydancer is of Ukranian heritage with family there that she communicates with. I have friends with family in Crimea. You have the latest talking points.

 

[1776]

The nutjob Putin supporters like tinydancer need to answer these questions to analyze their stupidity and insanity:

1) Why did Putin meddle in Ukraine's politics?
2) Why is it Putin's concern about who runs Ukraine when they are no threat to Russia?
3) Why did Putin send in "additional troops, tanks, etc" into Crimea then lie about it?
4) Why did the Russian troops in Crimea wear masks and take off their military identification?
5) Why did Putin violate Treaties with Ukraine?
6) Why is Russia in violation of the Geneva Conventions with massing his military along the border of a sovereign nation not threatening them?
7) Do you believe the Russia "claims" the snipers in Kyiv were "US connected snipers."
8) Do you believe Putin?
9) Do you have his t-shirt?

 

[Kimura]

Alabama is a separate country? Who knew?

Okay, Weisenheimer, the US should have as much interest in the Ukraine as the Russians would have in Chihuahua or Sonora.

Chihuaha and Sonora are sovereign countries? Who knew???

Crimea was semi-autonomous and part of Imperial Russia since 1783-ish. It then became part of the Russian SSR and later the Ukrainian SSR (1954 -Khrushchev). Around 65-68% of the population is ethnically Russian and most of eastern Ukraine leans Russian. It wasn't even a country until 1991 and briefly after WWI.

Like or it not, the democratically elected President was ousted in a coup d'état by a gaggle of fascists, neo-nazis and anti-semites supported by the US and EU. I suggest you take a look at Right Sector and Svboda. This is what the US recognizes as the legitimate government of the Ukraine, lol.

The best resolution would be the Finlandization of Ukraine, so it's a buffer state between the EU/NATO and the Russian Federation. If the US keeps pushing, the Russians will annex the entire eastern half of the country, and no one is going to start WWIII over the Ukraine.

The US should have as much interest in the Ukraine as the Russians would have in San Marino.

 

[Kimura]

Let me start with your first point that I put in bold above. Despite Russia's wealth of natural resources those revenues have been squandered and will continue to be because of cronic corruption - Russia is ranked 133 out of 176 nations - countries that ranked #1 were Denmark followed closely by countries like Norway and Finland.

Russia has trouble simply paying Russian pensions:

"With an effectively bankrupt state pension fund and a rapidly aging population, the Kremlin's ability to prevent a full-blown pension crisis will require a huge influx of gold and hard currency reserves. The regime needs to implement deep institutional reforms to create a better investment climate and diversify the economy if it is to survive as an economic superpower."

Russia's Dependence on Energy Consumption

If oil prices drop - and this is a very real possibility - Russia's dependence on oil prices staying around $100 a barrel, would be pushed towards recession if oil were to return to below $80 a barrel:

"Twelve years ago, the Russian federal budget balanced at $22 per barrel for oil. Today it is at $110 per barrel, said Bensh, who has been leading oil and gas companies in Ukraine for 13 years."

"“Imagine a fall to $80 per barrel and the concomitant affect that would have on an already recessed Russian economy, its balance sheet and its markets. At $80 or lower, the Russian economy would head deeper into recession, the budget and current accounts would run significant deficits, capital flight would accelerate markedly, depleting FX reserves and putting hefty downside pressure on the [Russian] ruble.”"

US Using Oil to Fight Russian Gas Politics in Ukraine?

Smaller oil producing nations could weather a drop in oil prices - Russia can't.

.

I don't see anything to suggest a pension crisis. To give an idea, they have decreased their debt to GDP ratio from 22.3% in 2005 to 8.4% today. The US debt to GDP ratio is over 100%. Russia is in a position right now where even if demand for their energy products decreases, they have a manageable debt to deal with a downturn. I would take western media outlets with a grain of salt. They don't exactly have a great track record of economic predictions(see 2008)
Russia Government Debt To GDP | Actual Data | Forecasts | Calendar
United States | Economic Indicators

As an America, I am more worried about the collapse of the dollar. Also, look at how Russia is a top buyer of gold globally. He is also with other BRICs(Brazil, China, India, South Africa) nations looking to leave the dollar for rubles for their foreign settlements. This can threaten the US Dollar are the global reserve currency and thus risk putting our economy in a deeper hole
Putin Turns Black Gold to Bullion as Russia Outbuys World - Bloomberg
Russia to switch to ruble settlements with Europe? - English pravda.ru

This from the Russian press agency TASS:

"The pension system remains the worst problem of the Russian economy. It is experiencing an acute crisis and in its present form it has no future. Most experts believe that in the current shape the Russian pension system is not viable, and nobody has the slightest idea of how to go about the business of transforming it without a social explosion."


"But for the high oil prices, the situation in the Russian pension system would be truly disastrous."

ITAR-TASS ? Expert Opinions

"Siluanov singled out defense spending and transfers to Russia’s Pension Fund, which runs a large deficit, as two of the biggest pressures on the budget."

Russia Expects ?Big Problems? for Budget After 2016 ? Minister | Business | RIA Novosti

Funny that the Russian economy was showing signs of trouble and the concern of many Russians was evident until a couple of months ago. The Russian economy is in fact going to get worse but most Russians are so focused on Crimea that they have forgotten the economy - for the moment.

.

They could fix a good portion of their problems if they simply let the ruble float.

If I’m Putin, and I want to show that Russia is truly a Great Power, why would I peg my currency to the dollar? The ruble is loosely pegged to the dollar and euro. The Russian central bank raised interest rates to defend this moronic policy like a month ago. Idiotic. You back your currency with dollars? Vlad, you’re not impressing me.

He also believes he must sell oil to the West to earn “revenue”. Cheap energy is essentially priceless and Russia has a huge advantage over most other countries. Why are they exporting it? It’s like the morons in the US exporting natural gas, which is causing increased domestic prices and eroding any advantages so to speak. Retarded.

If Putin really wanted to raise Russia’s profile, and if he or his advisers understood some economics, he would float the ruble, get rid of the dollar and euro peg, and tell the West to shove it when it came to oil exports. The West would be on its knees in no time.

 

[The Rabbi]

Okay, Weisenheimer, the US should have as much interest in the Ukraine as the Russians would have in Chihuahua or Sonora.

Chihuaha and Sonora are sovereign countries? Who knew???

Crimea was semi-autonomous and part of Imperial Russia since 1783-ish. It then became part of the Russian SSR and later the Ukrainian SSR (1954 -Khrushchev). Around 65-68% of the population is ethnically Russian and most of eastern Ukraine leans Russian. It wasn't even a country until 1991 and briefly after WWI.

Like or it not, the democratically elected President was ousted in a coup d'état by a gaggle of fascists, neo-nazis and anti-semites supported by the US and EU. I suggest you take a look at Right Sector and Svboda. This is what the US recognizes as the legitimate government of the Ukraine, lol.

The best resolution would be the Finlandization of Ukraine, so it's a buffer state between the EU/NATO and the Russian Federation. If the US keeps pushing, the Russians will annex the entire eastern half of the country, and no one is going to start WWIII over the Ukraine.

The US should have as much interest in the Ukraine as the Russians would have in San Marino.

Crimea was a part of Ukraine c.2014, which is all that matters. The tyrannical and corrupt president was ousted by popular demand, with democratic elections scheduled for later this year.
The best solution is threatening Russia that we will bomb the shit out of them if they send any more troops into Ukraine. Anything else will invite aggression by the Russians.
This was a lesson we learned the hard way in the 20th century. IF you give in to bullies, you get more bullying. It's a shame some people never learn from history.

 

[Kimura]

Crimea was a part of Ukraine c.2014, which is all that matters. The tyrannical and corrupt president was ousted by popular demand, with democratic elections scheduled for later this year.

They were semi-autonomous from the Ukraine. Yanukovych was ousted in a coup even after he said he would bring Svboda and Right Sector into the mix. These are people that bring AK47s to the Ukrainian parliament and vowed to fight Russian, Jewish and Communist scum to the death. These people aren't interested in the democratic process.

The best solution is threatening Russia that we will bomb the shit out of them if they send any more troops into Ukraine. Anything else will invite aggression by the Russians.
This was a lesson we learned the hard way in the 20th century. IF you give in to bullies, you get more bullying. It's a shame some people never learn from history.

Riiiiigggghhht. Threaten the other nuclear power, that's completely logical and how you carry out diplomacy in the 21st century. Again, what interests does the US have in the Ukraine? Fascists come to power in their Near abroad, they've had a naval base in Crimea since Catherine the Great, but this is unbridled Russian aggression. Got it, thanks for clearing that up.

 

[Uncensored2008]

I don't see how you quote that and come to your conclusion that India and China aren't moving towards Russia, since they rejected US sanctions, and refused to condemn Russia. No spin there except from you.

The fact is, the US is losing diplomatic respect, and thus negotiating strength, by the day through it's actions in Ukraine, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc. Combine this with cuts to defense and American forces being spread thin in unnecessary quagmires throughout the world, spells bad for US Hegemony. The unipolar world of the post Cold War eta is ending.

Russia has nothing to offer India or China. The economic growth of both nations depends on Western consumerism. A move toward Russia is economic suicide for these countries.