Pro-choicers know it's a baby, that's not the point...

[Anathema]

Wrong. That is your issue, for not having any good evidence or argument. You should harbor no expectation that anyone should believe your extraordinary claims.

I’ve repeatedly noted that I don’t expect anyone to embrace my beliefs. I’ve made that point numerous times.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

I’ve repeatedly noted that I don’t expect anyone to embrace my beliefs. I

You absolutely do, when you expect them to be codified into law. I have made this point numerous times.

 

[Anathema]

You absolutely do, when you expect them to be codified into law. I have made this point numerous times.

What I want codified into Law is the basic Morality that governed nearly all of humanity for thousands of years and was the basis of pretty much every Western civilization until the twentieth century and the total forfeiture of all Morality and Values in Society.

My Spiritual viewpoint is a totally separate issue.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

What I want codified into Law is the basic Morality that governed nearly all of humanity for thousands of years and was the basis of pretty much every Western civilization until the twentieth century and the total forfeiture of all Morality and Values in Society.

Says you. Of course, that would mean you also want to stoning of adulterous women codified into law....you would also want slavery codiefied into law...you would also want the ounishment of death for heresy and apostasy codified into law...

So you have a pretty terrible argument, thus far. And it is unavoidable that it will come back to your spirituality, as this what you will have to present for deciding which "historical morals" should be honored.

 

[Anathema]

Says you.

Sad me. There would be no stoning for heresy as there would be no official religion, but yes immoral people wold likely find themselves in unpleasant situations.

 

[Fort Fun Indiana]

There would be no stoning for heresy as there would be no official religion,

Yet, historically, there almost always was. You sure have a lot of explaining to do. You will have an entire mountians of horrible "historical morality" to dismiss, one way or another. And what will be left is that which you have chosen by your spirituality. So I think you should stop pretending that you are deferring to anything but your own spiritual authority for the things you are saying, as doing so is dishonest of you.

 

[Anathema]

Yet, historically, there almost always was....

Which is why so many people unfortunately and improperly equate Morality with Religiin when in fact Morality supersedes and pre-dates Religion..

 

[SweetSue92]

Why, though, when the baby has a beating heart and unique DNA?

Because the mother is a person with memories, social ties, etc etc. To say she should have no choice is more absurd.So a choice must be made about her choice. Pretty easy call for me.

I don't dismiss all of your points. I just say that you seem to have thought it out for yourself, and that's how it should stay. While I am personally against abortion, I don't feel it is my choice to make for anyone else.

People with dementia don't have memories. People with sociopathy or, perhaps, severe personality disorders don't have social ties. Does that make their death an "easy call" if it's convenient for someone else? Say, their caregivers? I'm just asking, based on what you said.

And it's not based on what my opinion is. It's the death of a human in the stage of development, just as a very old person with dementia. That's not, meh, well, you've thought it out, good for you. That's societal.

That IS human rights, actually.

But in the case of a person with dementia, that person is not inside the body of another. So that has zero affect on my belief or choices, in the case of abortion. I am perfectly content to be against abortion, for myself, while allowing others to make this choice for themselves.

But at the very minimum, outside of rape or incest, the adult made the choice to take actions that led to the person being "inside the body"--and then is killing it due to those choices. Seems morally shady at the very least.

 

[Asclepias]

Who told you it was a baby?

Who told you it wasn't?

The bible.

Chapter and verse. Pony up.

Genesis 2:7

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Obviously you arent considered a living being until you draw a breath.

Numbers 5:20-22

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:20-22 - King James Version

Here god is actually telling the priests to curse unfaithful women and god will perform the abortions.

Now you pony up where someone told you it was a baby?

In the first, there was only life at breath because it was DUST before. And so refutes your point.

In the second, the meaning of that passage is unclear. But if there is a miscarriage, it is orchestrated by God at the hands of a priest, NOT dug out of a woman's body by instruments. It's not an abortion; it's a miscarriage. Note that the woman simply drinks a bit of muddy water, not something that would actually bring on an abortion. So the entire event is up to God. Again that is not an abortion; it is miscarriage.

But what that passage does NOT say is that what is in her womb is NOT a baby.

So on both, that's a fail.

Actually it supports my point. If man was not considered a living thing until he drew a breath why would it change for anyone else?

The passage is very clear and specific. The priest performs a ritual and god does the abortion. You cant get any clearer than that. I dont think they called it abortion back then.

Numbers 5:22

"22 And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.”

You sound like an idiot. How are you going to have a miscarriage and you are not pregnant?

 

[gallantwarrior]

The choice should be, if you don't want a baby don't engage in sex ---- simple choice.

Then make that choice for yourself. It's not the duty of the world to cater to your fetishes and superstitions.

Then why do you find it to be the duty of the rest of us pay up for other peoples' poor choices?

Liberals see their fetishes and superstitions as the " exception " to every rule....just because.

That doesn't apply. Allwoing people to choose for themselves is precisely the opposite of enforcing any one superstition or fetish.

You are trying to force people to fund it. If you are going to chose to kill babies...do it on your own dime and own it.

Exactly! Regardless of anyone else's moral convictions, these "pro-choicers" insist that collective must finance the individual's choice of an abortion. While I allow that a woman might have the choice to murder her child in the womb, it is her responsibility to pay for that choice. So where is the choice of those who oppose abortion?

 

[Asclepias]

Then make that choice for yourself. It's not the duty of the world to cater to your fetishes and superstitions.

Then why do you find it to be the duty of the rest of us pay up for other peoples' poor choices?

Liberals see their fetishes and superstitions as the " exception " to every rule....just because.

That doesn't apply. Allwoing people to choose for themselves is precisely the opposite of enforcing any one superstition or fetish.

You are trying to force people to fund it. If you are going to chose to kill babies...do it on your own dime and own it.

So where is the choice of those who oppose abortion?

They dont have a choice in the matter unless they themselves get pregnant. Its none of their business. They just have to pay their taxes like everyone else.

 

[jillian]

...the point is they don't care it's a baby, they still want to do it.

And yet another misogynist male thinks he should tell women what to do.

And too stupid to make his own decisions much less someone else’s

So bored of you religious loons

 

[gallantwarrior]

So they are those of other people. Good for you. I do not see your declaration of being divined this knowledge as a compelling reason to codify it into law. Do you have more.?

It is my belief that those Morals and Values are what the Divibevyses to judge our souls at the moment of our death. That judgement will have truly extreme consequences for each of us.

You believe a lot of stupid things. What makes this any different from your other thoughts?

Why would anything he believes be any more stupid than what you believe?

 

[Asclepias]

So they are those of other people. Good for you. I do not see your declaration of being divined this knowledge as a compelling reason to codify it into law. Do you have more.?

It is my belief that those Morals and Values are what the Divibevyses to judge our souls at the moment of our death. That judgement will have truly extreme consequences for each of us.

You believe a lot of stupid things. What makes this any different from your other thoughts?

Why would anything he believes be any more stupid than what you believe?

Who knows? Thats like asking why chimps eat meat and gorillas are vegetarians. It just is.

 

[SweetSue92]

Who told you it wasn't?

The bible.

Chapter and verse. Pony up.

Genesis 2:7

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Obviously you arent considered a living being until you draw a breath.

Numbers 5:20-22

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:20-22 - King James Version

Here god is actually telling the priests to curse unfaithful women and god will perform the abortions.

Now you pony up where someone told you it was a baby?

In the first, there was only life at breath because it was DUST before. And so refutes your point.

In the second, the meaning of that passage is unclear. But if there is a miscarriage, it is orchestrated by God at the hands of a priest, NOT dug out of a woman's body by instruments. It's not an abortion; it's a miscarriage. Note that the woman simply drinks a bit of muddy water, not something that would actually bring on an abortion. So the entire event is up to God. Again that is not an abortion; it is miscarriage.

But what that passage does NOT say is that what is in her womb is NOT a baby.

So on both, that's a fail.

Actually it supports my point. If man was not considered a living thing until he drew a breath why would it change for anyone else?

The passage is very clear and specific. The priest performs a ritual and god does the abortion. You cant get any clearer than that. I dont think they called it abortion back then.

Numbers 5:22

"22 And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.”

You sound like an idiot. How are you going to have a miscarriage and you are not pregnant?

I have already acknowledged that it COULD be a miscarriage, or it might not. That is the only translation, the NIV, that says it undeniably is, and it looks to be an inadequate translation from the Hebrew. Here:

Numbers 5:22 Hebrew Text Analysis

But again if it is, it's a miscarriage not an abortion. No one went in there with instruments to dig out a baby. The woman drank water with some dirt in it; the entire thing was orchestrated by God. Newsflash: we will all die. God does not murder.

 

[Picaro]

...the point is they don't care it's a baby, they still want to do it.

Of course they do; pagans have always been avid fans of human sacrifices and demanded them, in droves, and yes, those who support it are indeed pagans, not 'rationalists'; rationalists would admit the problem is in almost all cases, outside of rape and medical reasons, just result of mindless self-indulgence and laziness and lack of self-control, not 'accidents'.

We know how women get pregnant, and it is almost 100% by choices and 100% avoidable and overwhelmingly avoidable by mere personal responsibility, at least here in the U.S.. Murders of babies for the crime of mere inconvenience is a product of social desensitization and lack of maturity, a slide into Lord Of The Flies 'cultural norms', and one does not need to be a christian to see why it needs to be opposed.

 

[there4eyeM]

Every pregnancy ends in a death.

 

[Picaro]

...the point is they don't care it's a baby, they still want to do it.

And yet another misogynist male thinks he should tell women what to do.

And too stupid to make his own decisions much less someone else’s

So bored of you religious loons

Obviously women who are stupid enough to get knocked up while claiming to not want children really really need somebody making their decisions for them, as it's clear they can't make sensible ones.

So bored of you single digit IQ sociopaths.

 

[there4eyeM]

...the point is they don't care it's a baby, they still want to do it.

And yet another misogynist male thinks he should tell women what to do.

And too stupid to make his own decisions much less someone else’s

So bored of you religious loons

Obviously women who are stupid enough to get knocked up while claiming to not want children really really need somebody making their decisions for them, as it's clear they can't make sensible ones.

Obviously, such a woman already has, or at least had, someone make her choices; the man, claiming not to want children, stupid enough to deposit his sperm where it might fertilize a human egg.

 

[Asclepias]

The bible.

Chapter and verse. Pony up.

Genesis 2:7

"The LORD God formed the man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being."

Obviously you arent considered a living being until you draw a breath.

Numbers 5:20-22

Bible Gateway passage: Numbers 5:20-22 - King James Version

Here god is actually telling the priests to curse unfaithful women and god will perform the abortions.

Now you pony up where someone told you it was a baby?

In the first, there was only life at breath because it was DUST before. And so refutes your point.

In the second, the meaning of that passage is unclear. But if there is a miscarriage, it is orchestrated by God at the hands of a priest, NOT dug out of a woman's body by instruments. It's not an abortion; it's a miscarriage. Note that the woman simply drinks a bit of muddy water, not something that would actually bring on an abortion. So the entire event is up to God. Again that is not an abortion; it is miscarriage.

But what that passage does NOT say is that what is in her womb is NOT a baby.

So on both, that's a fail.

Actually it supports my point. If man was not considered a living thing until he drew a breath why would it change for anyone else?

The passage is very clear and specific. The priest performs a ritual and god does the abortion. You cant get any clearer than that. I dont think they called it abortion back then.

Numbers 5:22

"22 And may the water that brings these curses enter your stomach and make your womb discharge and make you miscarry.”

You sound like an idiot. How are you going to have a miscarriage and you are not pregnant?

I have already acknowledged that it COULD be a miscarriage, or it might not. That is the only translation, the NIV, that says it undeniably is, and it looks to be an inadequate translation from the Hebrew. Here:

Numbers 5:22 Hebrew Text Analysis

But again if it is, it's a miscarriage not an abortion. No one went in there with instruments to dig out a baby. The woman drank water with some dirt in it; the entire thing was orchestrated by God. Newsflash: we will all die. God does not murder.

Again they didnt use the word abortion back then. No one went in with instruments because god is the one performing the abortion.