Practicing religion without force

[Newby]

How can you force someone to practice religion? Either they have voluntarily made the decision to follow God, or they haven't. You can't force someone to do that. You can't force people to take care of widow and the fatherless or to keep themselves unspotted from the world.

In fact, it's the very voluntariness of exercising faith that allows the power of God to flow into the lives of the faithful. God won't force his power upon us. It only falls on us through voluntarily exercising faith to keep His commandments.

"How can you force someone to practice religion? Either they have voluntarily made the decision to follow God, or they haven't."


when children are indoctrinated at an early age you are reducing/eliminating their choices as an adult. (at least for MOST people)

MOST people are (catholic, protestant,jewish,islamic...etc..) simply because their parents were and they were indoctrinated at an early age.


it isn't actually FORCE but it is certainly brainwashing and indoctrination....

"give me the child and I'll have the man"

some people break the chains of their early indoctrination but it seems that MOST don't

It's at least nice to see that many admit that teaching an idealogy to a child is forcing them to believe in that idealogy, and has great influence over them as far as what kind of adult they become. And that works both ways from both sides of the political spectrum. Maybe that's why many parents don't want schools teaching sex education and giving children the impression that sex is a casual thing and to be taken lightly. Why is that influence any different or less 'forceful' than any other thing taught that you may find offensive from your political perspective? The simple answer is that it's not, yet it's excused when not tied to religion, which is bullshit.

 

[Newby]

Sky also thinks that Jehovah's Witnesses are responsible for old people who are brutalized by thugs who come to their door.

Her reasoning is that because JH's often come to the door, the dumb old people assume that everybody is safe, and thus open the door to monsters who would otherwise wait quietly on the other side of the door.

She also believes that Christians should not be allowed in politics. She thinks she is being "forced" when she is on a public street and is subjected to street preaching. Apparently she is unable to escape it.

She believes Christians should not teach children.

So the things that Sky believes are this:

Christians should not be allowed to teach their own children, because sharing their values with them does not constitute teaching, if they are sharing Christianity, it constitutes "forcing religion".

Christians should not be allowed to teach any children, because their beliefs may seep into their world view, and we can't have them contaminating the public's children with their morality and their value system, if it originates in Christianity.

Christians should be excluded from all politics because likewise, they would allow their Christian faith to influence their decisions, and apparently Sky thinks this is a violation of separation of church and state. I guess she thinks the state isn't supposed to have religious thoughts or behave morally, if that morality stems from Christianity.

Jehovahs Witnesses are responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of old people.

Jehovah's Witnesses scare Sky.


This is the fruit loop that is Sky.

Sky's problems with Christianity all stem from the fact that she isn't truly a buddhist.

Sky defines Christianity within the small, unrealistic scope of what she was exposed too as a child in the Catholic church, and seems to refuse to acknowledge that it wasn't a normal experience, nor widely experienced by others. She refuses to acknowledge that the majority of christianity today is not like that, only the minority seems to matter. Yet when talking about the minority of muslims that run around killing people for their religion, she vehemently defends the majority as not being like them. Why she can't seem to do the same for christians is a mystery.

 

[Newby]

I don't hate Christians. Some of them I like and some I don't.

I never said you hated Christians.

I stand corrected. You said I hate Christianity. I don't. I oppose tax breaks to Christians who preach from the pulpit. Christ's teachings are lovely. Before I got into Buddhism I studied the teachings of Murdo MacDonald Bayne who was a Christian minister who studied with Buddhist teachers in Tibet. I still enjoy reading him.

Here is a beautiful example of his writing. It is called I AM THE LIFE

He who lives in Truth is not afraid to proclaim the Truth. He is strong, he is full of
optimism. He looks for the bright side in all things. In the darkest corners he makes the
sun shine. He walks through life with a smile. He sings the song of joy.
His faith is in the Absolute who lives in and through him.

He carries a message of hope and courage and loves all life. He gives help where and when it is needed.
He helps others to help themselves. He is free from fear and worry, always forgiving, always
tolerant. He is devoid of hate, envy and malice. He radiates love to all the world and
minds his own business and expects others to do the same. He goes joyfully through
life, things that drive others to despair and misery leave him in a calm undisturbed state
of mind. His peace comes from within. He is like the ocean which receives all streams
and rivers yet the ocean’s mighty calm is unmoved. Those who contact him feel his
presence and receive encouragement.

He attracts love and friends; not that he desires them, because he does not
depend on people and things, but these things come to him as his right. He
acknowledges the Law and the Law responds. He is at home with all classes of people,
the rich and the poor are all alike to him. He does not favour one more than the other;
he is not interested in what they have. All are equally at home with him. He is welcome
in all homes, and children cling to his hands and coat.

He loves life and life responds. Sinner and saint are the same to him, he sees the
good in the sinner and does not look for a weakness in the saint. He knows that he
himself is not without sin and so he never casts the stone. The outcast recognises him
as a brother. The woman who has passed through the furnace of life trusts him. He
gives of his love and wisdom and points the way to happiness.

He heals the heart and relieves the troubled mind. God never holds His love from
His most disobedient child, neither does He hold that love of God from his brother or
sister. He neither pities nor condemns because he knows all are conquerors if they will
to conquer. He finds joy in his work; he never hurries nor can he be rushed. He knows
that time does not control him: he is attuned to the eternal.

He has absolute faith in the absolute power of which he has become aware. He
knows he is one with all life, and behind him is the power of the universe. He believes in
the all good. Divine justice is his key to all situations. He is simple, loving and kind. He
recognises that to attain wisdom one must be humble and when wisdom is mastered
one must be humbler still. He is the future’s promise of a better world to come.

How is this not preaching your religion to others? Why are you allowed too, but no one else is?

 

[Newby]

You open this tread asking about religion and force..and then specify on children. The parameters were yours not mine. I understand what force is and how it is used.


And if you were confused and require clarification... you ask.


You don't try to turn it around and say that I am into force. I clearly say that ANY indoctrination in ANY from ANY religion is force.

So yes that is a very passive aggressive thing to do... right along with the passive aggressive neg you sent.

New reputation!
Hi, you have received -45 reputation points from Sky Dancer.
Reputation was given for this post.

Comment:
I don\'t approve of you assuming my statement was passive aggressive when it was a question requiring clarification. I thought you wanted to put hostility between us behind you?

Regards,
Sky Dancer



Your return kiss will be along a bit later after is spread it around some.

Neg repping is not passive aggressive. It's a form of free speech.

You're right. I didn't put it very well by saying you are 'into force'. I was confused because you are so adamantly against any form of coercion of children around religion but seem to have no problem with coercing children in other areas.

I see negs as a passive aggressive hit. Free speech sure, but you could have said what you said in open forum without the neg.


I don't think children should be exposed to ANY religion in any from under any circumstances.. Period. Doing so takes away their choice, as i am sure you will agree.

And you are free to do so, but you are not free to tell others how to raise their children. Thank God for the U.S. Constitution.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Neg repping is not passive aggressive. It's a form of free speech.

You're right. I didn't put it very well by saying you are 'into force'. I was confused because you are so adamantly against any form of coercion of children around religion but seem to have no problem with coercing children in other areas.

I see negs as a passive aggressive hit. Free speech sure, but you could have said what you said in open forum without the neg.


I don't think children should be exposed to ANY religion in any from under any circumstances.. Period. Doing so takes away their choice, as i am sure you will agree.

And you are free to do so, but you are not free to tell others how to raise their children. Thank God for the U.S. Constitution.

Show me one place where I was telling other people how to raise their children. I have talked about how I was raised and what helped and hindered me.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I never said you hated Christians.

I stand corrected. You said I hate Christianity. I don't. I oppose tax breaks to Christians who preach from the pulpit. Christ's teachings are lovely. Before I got into Buddhism I studied the teachings of Murdo MacDonald Bayne who was a Christian minister who studied with Buddhist teachers in Tibet. I still enjoy reading him.

Here is a beautiful example of his writing. It is called I AM THE LIFE

He who lives in Truth is not afraid to proclaim the Truth. He is strong, he is full of
optimism. He looks for the bright side in all things. In the darkest corners he makes the
sun shine. He walks through life with a smile. He sings the song of joy.
His faith is in the Absolute who lives in and through him.

He carries a message of hope and courage and loves all life. He gives help where and when it is needed.
He helps others to help themselves. He is free from fear and worry, always forgiving, always
tolerant. He is devoid of hate, envy and malice. He radiates love to all the world and
minds his own business and expects others to do the same. He goes joyfully through
life, things that drive others to despair and misery leave him in a calm undisturbed state
of mind. His peace comes from within. He is like the ocean which receives all streams
and rivers yet the ocean’s mighty calm is unmoved. Those who contact him feel his
presence and receive encouragement.

He attracts love and friends; not that he desires them, because he does not
depend on people and things, but these things come to him as his right. He
acknowledges the Law and the Law responds. He is at home with all classes of people,
the rich and the poor are all alike to him. He does not favour one more than the other;
he is not interested in what they have. All are equally at home with him. He is welcome
in all homes, and children cling to his hands and coat.

He loves life and life responds. Sinner and saint are the same to him, he sees the
good in the sinner and does not look for a weakness in the saint. He knows that he
himself is not without sin and so he never casts the stone. The outcast recognises him
as a brother. The woman who has passed through the furnace of life trusts him. He
gives of his love and wisdom and points the way to happiness.

He heals the heart and relieves the troubled mind. God never holds His love from
His most disobedient child, neither does He hold that love of God from his brother or
sister. He neither pities nor condemns because he knows all are conquerors if they will
to conquer. He finds joy in his work; he never hurries nor can he be rushed. He knows
that time does not control him: he is attuned to the eternal.

He has absolute faith in the absolute power of which he has become aware. He
knows he is one with all life, and behind him is the power of the universe. He believes in
the all good. Divine justice is his key to all situations. He is simple, loving and kind. He
recognises that to attain wisdom one must be humble and when wisdom is mastered
one must be humbler still. He is the future’s promise of a better world to come.

How is this not preaching your religion to others? Why are you allowed too, but no one else is?

How is this preaching? I am sharing a passage from a Christian writer that I like. I included it to show that I don't hate Christians.

 

[strollingbones]

preaching or education?

there is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs...i dont see sky trying to force Buddhism on anyone...as much as sharing her beliefs..which there should be plenty of room for....she is in the r & e forum....

if you dont wanna read it dont....but dont attack someone for sharing....

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sky also thinks that Jehovah's Witnesses are responsible for old people who are brutalized by thugs who come to their door.

Her reasoning is that because JH's often come to the door, the dumb old people assume that everybody is safe, and thus open the door to monsters who would otherwise wait quietly on the other side of the door.

She also believes that Christians should not be allowed in politics. She thinks she is being "forced" when she is on a public street and is subjected to street preaching. Apparently she is unable to escape it.

She believes Christians should not teach children.

So the things that Sky believes are this:

Christians should not be allowed to teach their own children, because sharing their values with them does not constitute teaching, if they are sharing Christianity, it constitutes "forcing religion".

Christians should not be allowed to teach any children, because their beliefs may seep into their world view, and we can't have them contaminating the public's children with their morality and their value system, if it originates in Christianity.

Christians should be excluded from all politics because likewise, they would allow their Christian faith to influence their decisions, and apparently Sky thinks this is a violation of separation of church and state. I guess she thinks the state isn't supposed to have religious thoughts or behave morally, if that morality stems from Christianity.

Jehovahs Witnesses are responsible for the deaths of untold numbers of old people.

Jehovah's Witnesses scare Sky.


This is the fruit loop that is Sky.

Sky's problems with Christianity all stem from the fact that she isn't truly a buddhist.

Sky defines Christianity within the small, unrealistic scope of what she was exposed too as a child in the Catholic church, and seems to refuse to acknowledge that it wasn't a normal experience, nor widely experienced by others. She refuses to acknowledge that the majority of christianity today is not like that, only the minority seems to matter. Yet when talking about the minority of muslims that run around killing people for their religion, she vehemently defends the majority as not being like them. Why she can't seem to do the same for christians is a mystery.

I don't define Christianity by the experiences I had as a child. I merely point out why Christianity isn't my path. Why should I promote what failed me?

I have been quite clear about which Christians bother me and which ones I appreciate.
I fail to understand if what I post doesn't apply to you why you're offended by it. Are you really of the opinion that NO Christan hates gays? Are you of the view that I have no right to talk about my life experiences?

I work with Christians and get along with them quite well. I have Christian clients. I don't condemn the teachings of Christ, I think they are beautiful. I included a poem by a Christian writer because I thought Christians would like it. I didn't realize you would think I was preaching and be offended by it.

Christians are the majority religion in the US. I think they expect to be universally respected because there are so many of them.

I really appreciate the United Church of Christ, Presbyterians, Quakers, and most of the Christians I know. I don't appreciate the Church in Las Vegas that supported Martin Ssempas campaign to execute gays in Uganda. I don't support Westboro Baptist Church, American Family Association, Family Research Council, Coral Ridge Ministeries, Pat Robertson.

What you can expect from me is courtesy. I appreciate you. I don't care that you happen to be a Christian. I feel that we connect on a heart level. It may not feel the same to you.

I don't call anyone names. When someone attributes something to me that I never said I point it out and untrue.

It seems my view is not popular or welcome in the religion forum. I accept that.

I could make a long list of all the Christians on this forum who I like and respect. It would surprise you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

preaching or education?

there is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs...i dont see sky trying to force Buddhism on anyone...as much as sharing her beliefs..which there should be plenty of room for....she is in the r & e forum....

if you dont wanna read it dont....but dont attack someone for sharing....

I appreciate your post. It helps keep me going.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Seems wise to me. What do you think?

I think the love of Christ should be beaten into them. Worked for my kids. The old lady to.

Good thing I know you're joking.

 

[Sky Dancer]

One of the worst mistakes you can make in life is to attach your identity to any particular religion or philosophy, such as by saying “I am a Christian” or “I am a Buddhist.” This forces your mind into a fixed, limited perspective.

Religious “truths” are inherently rooted in a fixed perspective, but real truth is perspective-independent. A more intelligent approach is to consider reality through a variety of different perspectives without trying to force your perceptions into an artificial religious framework.

For me: Spirituality, yes. Religion, no.

Excellent post. We talk about the pitfalls of 'being a Buddhist' in my community too. One of my teachers says "it's not about being a Buddhist, it's about becoming a buddha in order to benefit sentient beings."

 

[Sky Dancer]

You're kinda clueless aren't you?

Leaving the religion of my family is bashing it? You didn't walk in my shoes.

I'm indicating the reasons why a religion that uses force doesn't help everyone using my own experience and emphasizing that it doesn't apply to ALL or even MOST Christians. Sometimes it's too much for a child. It wasn't good for me alot of the time. I did get some good from it, but it was matched for me with abuse. The problem for me was never the Catholic practices or teachings themselves it was the way that my step parent misused the teachings to justify her abuse.

My grandmother was in a Magdalene home in Ireland.

None of these revelations of mine say that my experience was universal in Catholicism. It merely gives background to why making a change to a different path for me was so liberating. I found my own way to Buddhism. No one forced me.

Were not they the homes *fallen women * where sent to to spend there life in servitude to the nuns ?

The Magdalene Story

Yes. My grandmother became pregnant with my mother and was placed in a Magdalene home.


Initially the mission of the asylums was often to rehabilitate women back into society, but by the early twentieth century the homes had become increasingly punitive and carceral (at least in Ireland and Scotland). In most asylums, the inmates were required to undertake hard physical labour, including laundry and needle work. They also endured a daily regime that included long periods of prayer and enforced silence. In Ireland, such asylums were known as Magdalene laundries. It has been estimated that 30,000 women passed through Ireland's laundries. The last Magdalene asylum in the Republic of Ireland closed on September 25, 1996.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magdalene_asylum

 

[Immanuel]

preaching or education?

there is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs...i dont see sky trying to force Buddhism on anyone...as much as sharing her beliefs..which there should be plenty of room for....she is in the r & e forum....

if you dont wanna read it dont....but dont attack someone for sharing....

I agree but one thing Sky does not seem to understand, maybe she does but she doesn't seem to, is that it goes both ways. No one is trying to convert her. We are simply trying to have a conversation. She accuses us of trying to convert her when we are just trying to converse with her. I for one like to know something about other religions. If I can't ask her questions about her faith without drawing upon my own frame of reference, we get no where.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

preaching or education?

there is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs...i dont see sky trying to force Buddhism on anyone...as much as sharing her beliefs..which there should be plenty of room for....she is in the r & e forum....

if you dont wanna read it dont....but dont attack someone for sharing....

I agree but one thing Sky does not seem to understand, maybe she does but she doesn't seem to, is that it goes both ways. No one is trying to convert her. We are simply trying to have a conversation. She accuses us of trying to convert her when we are just trying to converse with her. I for one like to know something about other religions. If I can't ask her questions about her faith without drawing upon my own frame of reference, we get no where.

Immie

I call someone telling me they do not accept my path and think I should take up Jesus trying to convert me.

To your great credit, Immie, you don't do that. I have no problem with you asking me questions. You're one of the few who do.

I have no problem with you talking about a topic from your point of view as a Christian.

 

[Sky Dancer]

If you quote you have to quote accurately.

If you're paraphrasing, you say "you said that" or "according to whasis".

You can quote people and pick and choose what part of their posts to repeat...but it has to be word for word, even if taken out of context.

This is basic writing, Sky. Yes they are board rules but they follow APA style.

Ok. I will be more careful to take out the parts of the post that are offensive without changing anything else. Then I can respond to the content of the subject rather than the personal attack.

What you could do for me is post exactly what words I said that gave you the idea that I think Jehovah Witnesses pray on old people and harm them in any way. You've repeated that story many times without a link to the post you found so offensive.

 

[R.D.]

Sky defines Christianity within the small, unrealistic scope of what she was exposed too as a child in the Catholic church, and seems to refuse to acknowledge that it wasn't a normal experience, nor widely experienced by others. She refuses to acknowledge that the majority of christianity today is not like that, only the minority seems to matter. Yet when talking about the minority of muslims that run around killing people for their religion, she vehemently defends the majority as not being like them. Why she can't seem to do the same for christians is a mystery.

I don't define Christianity by the experiences I had as a child. I merely point out why Christianity isn't my path. Why should I promote what failed me? (snip)

Sounds to me like the same thing, only you are trying really really really hard to convice yourself otherwise.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Sky defines Christianity within the small, unrealistic scope of what she was exposed too as a child in the Catholic church, and seems to refuse to acknowledge that it wasn't a normal experience, nor widely experienced by others. She refuses to acknowledge that the majority of christianity today is not like that, only the minority seems to matter. Yet when talking about the minority of muslims that run around killing people for their religion, she vehemently defends the majority as not being like them. Why she can't seem to do the same for christians is a mystery.

I don't define Christianity by the experiences I had as a child. I merely point out why Christianity isn't my path. Why should I promote what failed me? (snip)

Sounds to me like the same thing, only you are trying really really really hard to convice yourself otherwise.

If you say so.

 

[Momanohedhunter]

Seems wise to me. What do you think?

I think the love of Christ should be beaten into them. Worked for my kids. The old lady to.

Good thing I know you're joking.

Yes I was joking. The Wife is descended from some of the meanest warrior stock on the planet and would not take her kids or her self being beat on. It was the Lords word that brought me to him. Not a priest or preacher's. It was the same with my wife and kids. We are not all bad.

 

[Sky Dancer]

I think the love of Christ should be beaten into them. Worked for my kids. The old lady to.

Good thing I know you're joking.

Yes I was joking. The Wife is descended from some of the meanest warrior stock on the planet and would not take her kids or her self being beat on. It was the Lords word that brought me to him. Not a priest or preacher's. It was the same with my wife and kids. We are not all bad.

No, I don't think you're all bad. I don't think Christianity is bad. I think some things a few people do in the name of their God are bad.

 

[AllieBaba]

preaching or education?

there is nothing wrong with sharing your beliefs...i dont see sky trying to force Buddhism on anyone...as much as sharing her beliefs..which there should be plenty of room for....she is in the r & e forum....

if you dont wanna read it dont....but dont attack someone for sharing....

Sky gets attacked for doing the exact same thing she pisses and moans about. That's it.

She wails and pours dirt on her head over the *forcing* of the Christian religion; she starts thread after thread after thread bashing Christianity...I know that's not the way she starts them, but that's her intention, and it's why she starts them; then when people respond, she pretends she's being harassed and harrangued and adopts the *who me?* defense.

It's the epitome of cowardice, passive aggression, and hypocrisy. That's why she gets attacked.