PLO chief Mahmoud Abbas quits leadership post

[P F Tinmore]

Phoenall, Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

For all practical purposes there ARE two separate entities of Palestine --- per se - de jure sovereign states; Gaza and the West Bank.

The Ramallah Government can pretend all it wants, that they have effective, sovereign or administrative control over the Gaza Strip; but it would not be true. In fact, the Gaza Government politically operates completely independent of the Ramallah Government,; except as a finance conduit. And the Ramallah Government takes no responsibility for the hostile actions HAMAS takes in the furtherance of their agenda.

We all pretend that the Declaration of Independence by the Palestinians in November 1988 had somehow established a cohesive voice and platform for the Palestinian people. But the Palestinian People have made a complete shambles of it.

So we have two factions and two lands which is why I see a 3 state solution as the only way forward.

(COMMENT)

For the Palestinians to have a Contemporary Leadership, they must be able to do four key things:

1. Appreciate and nurture talent – Leaders must not be afraid to hire people who are smarter or more talented than they are. Often, leaders are not the most talented people in their organizations. The head of Disney animation could not draw. The head of the research center where the PC was invented was not a computer engineer.
2. Focus on what is important – When an organization loses sight of its main goals, it becomes a slogging bureaucracy. Physicist Richard Feynman worked on the WWII Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb. To maintain security, the U.S. Army initially refused to tell the scientists what their calculations would be used to do; Feynman objected. He persuaded the generals to tell the physicists what they were working on and what role it would serve in ending WWII. Once the physicists knew the importance of the work, they improved the process and worked faster.
3. Build trust – Trust unites a group with motivation and integrity.
4. Develop a close tie between leaders and followers – on either the international level --- or --- the domestic level where a bond with followers to create an emotional link that pulls everyone in the organization to a higher level.
SOURCE: Contemporary Issues in Leadership by Robert L. Taylor and William E. Rosenbach (Editors) Westview Press © 2006
​

I see no evidence that the Palestinians show an appreciation for talent, or in any way nurture. Most ascensions in the ranks of Palestinian Political organization is due to death or political backstabbing. Nor can the Palestinians agree among themselves what is important of the Palestinian People, let alone what the major nations of the world recommend the Palestinians focus on. Whatever the Palestinian Leadership thinks is important enough to focus on, it is not regions peace and security. The Palestinian Leadership seldom agrees among themselves on what is important, on the future intentions, or in the manner of the relationships they have established internationally; but are more notoriously known for saying one thing to Arab/Muslim audiences --- and --- the near exact opposite to Israeli, the Quartet, and the greater International Community.

To date, all the Palestinians have done is demonstrate that with all the time that they have had and with all the donor financing they have received --- they haven't been able to pull the nation together either in peace, commerce or other critical developments. It is a failed state thus far.

Most Respectfully,
R

You skipped over the most important part.

Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

 

[Phoenall]

Phoenall, Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

For all practical purposes there ARE two separate entities of Palestine --- per se - de jure sovereign states; Gaza and the West Bank.

The Ramallah Government can pretend all it wants, that they have effective, sovereign or administrative control over the Gaza Strip; but it would not be true. In fact, the Gaza Government politically operates completely independent of the Ramallah Government,; except as a finance conduit. And the Ramallah Government takes no responsibility for the hostile actions HAMAS takes in the furtherance of their agenda.

We all pretend that the Declaration of Independence by the Palestinians in November 1988 had somehow established a cohesive voice and platform for the Palestinian people. But the Palestinian People have made a complete shambles of it.

So we have two factions and two lands which is why I see a 3 state solution as the only way forward.

(COMMENT)

For the Palestinians to have a Contemporary Leadership, they must be able to do four key things:

1. Appreciate and nurture talent – Leaders must not be afraid to hire people who are smarter or more talented than they are. Often, leaders are not the most talented people in their organizations. The head of Disney animation could not draw. The head of the research center where the PC was invented was not a computer engineer.
2. Focus on what is important – When an organization loses sight of its main goals, it becomes a slogging bureaucracy. Physicist Richard Feynman worked on the WWII Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb. To maintain security, the U.S. Army initially refused to tell the scientists what their calculations would be used to do; Feynman objected. He persuaded the generals to tell the physicists what they were working on and what role it would serve in ending WWII. Once the physicists knew the importance of the work, they improved the process and worked faster.
3. Build trust – Trust unites a group with motivation and integrity.
4. Develop a close tie between leaders and followers – on either the international level --- or --- the domestic level where a bond with followers to create an emotional link that pulls everyone in the organization to a higher level.
SOURCE: Contemporary Issues in Leadership by Robert L. Taylor and William E. Rosenbach (Editors) Westview Press © 2006
​

I see no evidence that the Palestinians show an appreciation for talent, or in any way nurture. Most ascensions in the ranks of Palestinian Political organization is due to death or political backstabbing. Nor can the Palestinians agree among themselves what is important of the Palestinian People, let alone what the major nations of the world recommend the Palestinians focus on. Whatever the Palestinian Leadership thinks is important enough to focus on, it is not regions peace and security. The Palestinian Leadership seldom agrees among themselves on what is important, on the future intentions, or in the manner of the relationships they have established internationally; but are more notoriously known for saying one thing to Arab/Muslim audiences --- and --- the near exact opposite to Israeli, the Quartet, and the greater International Community.

To date, all the Palestinians have done is demonstrate that with all the time that they have had and with all the donor financing they have received --- they haven't been able to pull the nation together either in peace, commerce or other critical developments. It is a failed state thus far.

Most Respectfully,
R

You skipped over the most important part.

Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Irrelevent under the circumstances as hamas has refused to hold elections and left the majority of Palestine without any leadership

 

[Hollie]

Phoenall, Hollie, P F Tinmore, et al,

For all practical purposes there ARE two separate entities of Palestine --- per se - de jure sovereign states; Gaza and the West Bank.

The Ramallah Government can pretend all it wants, that they have effective, sovereign or administrative control over the Gaza Strip; but it would not be true. In fact, the Gaza Government politically operates completely independent of the Ramallah Government,; except as a finance conduit. And the Ramallah Government takes no responsibility for the hostile actions HAMAS takes in the furtherance of their agenda.

We all pretend that the Declaration of Independence by the Palestinians in November 1988 had somehow established a cohesive voice and platform for the Palestinian people. But the Palestinian People have made a complete shambles of it.

So we have two factions and two lands which is why I see a 3 state solution as the only way forward.

(COMMENT)

For the Palestinians to have a Contemporary Leadership, they must be able to do four key things:

1. Appreciate and nurture talent – Leaders must not be afraid to hire people who are smarter or more talented than they are. Often, leaders are not the most talented people in their organizations. The head of Disney animation could not draw. The head of the research center where the PC was invented was not a computer engineer.
2. Focus on what is important – When an organization loses sight of its main goals, it becomes a slogging bureaucracy. Physicist Richard Feynman worked on the WWII Manhattan Project to develop the atomic bomb. To maintain security, the U.S. Army initially refused to tell the scientists what their calculations would be used to do; Feynman objected. He persuaded the generals to tell the physicists what they were working on and what role it would serve in ending WWII. Once the physicists knew the importance of the work, they improved the process and worked faster.
3. Build trust – Trust unites a group with motivation and integrity.
4. Develop a close tie between leaders and followers – on either the international level --- or --- the domestic level where a bond with followers to create an emotional link that pulls everyone in the organization to a higher level.
SOURCE: Contemporary Issues in Leadership by Robert L. Taylor and William E. Rosenbach (Editors) Westview Press © 2006
​

I see no evidence that the Palestinians show an appreciation for talent, or in any way nurture. Most ascensions in the ranks of Palestinian Political organization is due to death or political backstabbing. Nor can the Palestinians agree among themselves what is important of the Palestinian People, let alone what the major nations of the world recommend the Palestinians focus on. Whatever the Palestinian Leadership thinks is important enough to focus on, it is not regions peace and security. The Palestinian Leadership seldom agrees among themselves on what is important, on the future intentions, or in the manner of the relationships they have established internationally; but are more notoriously known for saying one thing to Arab/Muslim audiences --- and --- the near exact opposite to Israeli, the Quartet, and the greater International Community.

To date, all the Palestinians have done is demonstrate that with all the time that they have had and with all the donor financing they have received --- they haven't been able to pull the nation together either in peace, commerce or other critical developments. It is a failed state thus far.

Most Respectfully,
R

You skipped over the most important part.

Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization.​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization.​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

Just guessing here, but I'm not aware that Yemen has declared AQ or ISIS as Islamic terrorist organizations. It seems you Islamic terrorist huggers are selective about your tender islamo-sensibilities being offended.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization.​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

Only in your eyes. But the answer has been given that they show all the hallmarks of being terrorists in that they are forcing their ideology on another group by violent means.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, you are ducking the question, again.

Who is Abbas? Abbas is an old PLO crony who firmly believes the pack of lies called Oslo. That is his value to Israel. Even though he may appear to be a pain in the ass to Israel at times, he will never abandon the peace process farce or upend the two state solution. The two state solution is just a rename of the partition plan that has failed since 1937. Achieving a two state solution now is more remote than it was in 1937.

Abbas was virtually picked by foreign powers to be the Prime Minister of Palestine in 2003 and was chosen to be the successor to Arafat as president in 2005 by the same foreign powers.

Abbas was sold to the Palestinians as the man who would bring peace. (They did not mention that it was Israel's version of peace.) He was allowed to travel freely throughout the territories to campaign while his major opponent, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, was detained, beaten, and arrested. Dr. Barghouti suffered a broken knee in one of these beatings.

It would be difficult to predict how different things would be if Dr Barghouti had been elected. But, under his leadership I doubt that Hamas would have been elected.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Judgement of the General Court (Second Chamber), DEC 14, pertaining to Case T-400/10, HAMAS 'v' EU, may have annulled the previous list, but that doesn't mean the a new decision cannot be issue.

EU keeps Hamas on terror list despite court ruling
30 March 2015,
(BRUSSELS) - The European Union kept Hamas on its terrorism blacklist Friday despite a controversial court decision ordering Brussels to remove the Palestinian Islamist group from the register.

Brussels has lodged an appeal against a December ruling by the bloc's second highest court that Hamas should be delisted for the first time since 2001.

"Hamas stays on list during Council's appeal to December judgement," Susanne Kiefer, a spokeswoman for the European Council said on Twitter.

The appeal process is expected to take around a year and a half.
​

Don't confuse a legal decree --- with --- the political pulse of the individual nations, or the commercial interests and people of the EU. They know what the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) represents, as will as the al-Qassam Brigades and their associates, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

ROCCO: • "But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization."​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

(COMMENT)

As to the criteria used, you have a very short memory. Back, last December, I gave you an extensive criteria list. In the case of the EU --- ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION directly, the criteria is to be found in the European Union (EU) Counter-terrorism Strategy, and in the European Union (EU) specific programme for the period 2007-2013 aimed at supporting projects in the field of prevention, preparedness and consequence management for terrorist attacks and other security-related risks.

The UN doesn't have a definition for terrorism; so their is no list. The UN merely Condemns in the "strongest terms the incitement of terrorist acts and repudiating attempts at the justification or glorification (apologie) of terrorist acts that may incite further terrorist acts." At the world-wide Level, individual victims want the right to define specific events or crimes as terrorist action, without having to satisfy some International Standard.

Finally, as for Egypt, whether HAMAS is on some official list or not, does not hamper their taking the same appropriate action.

It was not but a week ago that Egyptian authorities stopped and detained Hassan Asseify, the Deputy Religious Affairs Minister in Hamas-ruled Gaza, on his way back from Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian enclave. Airport security found his name on the NO-FLY List to enter Egypt. Eventually he was allowed to resume is travel. But, that does not mean all is forgiven. The Egyptian authorities have kept the Rafah crossing closed to nearly all traffic. This was in part because of the Egyptian officials cite recent attacks on army and police personnel in the northern Sinai Peninsula as justification for the closed-border policy. See an open border as a potential risk to security as it will attract both Iranians and DEASH associates to the SINAI.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Judgement of the General Court (Second Chamber), DEC 14, pertaining to Case T-400/10, HAMAS 'v' EU, may have annulled the previous list, but that doesn't mean the a new decision cannot be issue.

EU keeps Hamas on terror list despite court ruling
30 March 2015,
(BRUSSELS) - The European Union kept Hamas on its terrorism blacklist Friday despite a controversial court decision ordering Brussels to remove the Palestinian Islamist group from the register.

Brussels has lodged an appeal against a December ruling by the bloc's second highest court that Hamas should be delisted for the first time since 2001.

"Hamas stays on list during Council's appeal to December judgement," Susanne Kiefer, a spokeswoman for the European Council said on Twitter.

The appeal process is expected to take around a year and a half.
​

Don't confuse a legal decree --- with --- the political pulse of the individual nations, or the commercial interests and people of the EU. They know what the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) represents, as will as the al-Qassam Brigades and their associates, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

ROCCO: • "But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization."​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

(COMMENT)

As to the criteria used, you have a very short memory. Back, last December, I gave you an extensive criteria list. In the case of the EU --- ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION directly, the criteria is to be found in the European Union (EU) Counter-terrorism Strategy, and in the European Union (EU) specific programme for the period 2007-2013 aimed at supporting projects in the field of prevention, preparedness and consequence management for terrorist attacks and other security-related risks.

The UN doesn't have a definition for terrorism; so their is no list. The UN merely Condemns in the "strongest terms the incitement of terrorist acts and repudiating attempts at the justification or glorification (apologie) of terrorist acts that may incite further terrorist acts." At the world-wide Level, individual victims want the right to define specific events or crimes as terrorist action, without having to satisfy some International Standard.

Finally, as for Egypt, whether HAMAS is on some official list or not, does not hamper their taking the same appropriate action.

It was not but a week ago that Egyptian authorities stopped and detained Hassan Asseify, the Deputy Religious Affairs Minister in Hamas-ruled Gaza, on his way back from Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian enclave. Airport security found his name on the NO-FLY List to enter Egypt. Eventually he was allowed to resume is travel. But, that does not mean all is forgiven. The Egyptian authorities have kept the Rafah crossing closed to nearly all traffic. This was in part because of the Egyptian officials cite recent attacks on army and police personnel in the northern Sinai Peninsula as justification for the closed-border policy. See an open border as a potential risk to security as it will attract both Iranians and DEASH associates to the SINAI.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

I don't know what you are looking for.

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Try Article 1

Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

v/r
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore,

I don't know what you are looking for.

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Try Article 1

Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

v/r
R

You missed the point of my question.

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization.​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

"They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" "

Bullshit. YOu

 

[toastman]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization.​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

"They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West"

Bullshit

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore,

OK Help an old man out.

P F Tinmore,

I don't know what you are looking for.

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Try Article 1

Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

v/r
R

You missed the point of my question.

(COMMENT)

What is the point to the question?
I gave you the theory and concept, the elements of the offense, and the example set. What is that you want?

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore,

OK Help an old man out.

P F Tinmore,

I don't know what you are looking for.

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Try Article 1

Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

v/r
R

You missed the point of my question.

(COMMENT)

What is the point to the question?
I gave you the theory and concept, the elements of the offense, and the example set. What is that you want?

Most Respectfully,
R

How does that apply to a national liberation movement that has been on the receiving end of terrorism for a hundred years?

 

[Hollie]

P F Tinmore,

OK Help an old man out.

P F Tinmore,

I don't know what you are looking for.

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Try Article 1

Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

v/r
R

You missed the point of my question.

(COMMENT)

What is the point to the question?
I gave you the theory and concept, the elements of the offense, and the example set. What is that you want?

Most Respectfully,
R

How does that apply to a national liberation movement that has been on the receiving end of terrorism for a hundred years?

How does arab / moslem incompetence excuse arab moslem lack of responsibility and accountability?

Yours is typical of the slathering victimhood that so many Moslems subscribe to. You have a need to excuse your failings and the failings of the Arab/Moslem world by way of invented conspiracy theories than are… well to be gracious… excuses for incompetence and ineptitude.

Moslems’ obsession with Jews is as entertaining as it is pitiable. Moslems’ self created victimhood under the guise of those crafty Joooooo conspiracies is part of Arab/Moslem cultural norms. What do these endless conspiratorial musings have in common? All of them tell us of millions of Moslem who have immersed themselves in an imaginary world of conspiracies that is fueled by insecurity and self hate. Remember Baghdad Bob? (Saddam’s propaganda mouthpiece who was convinced that his fantasies were more real than the US armored forces plowing through Baghdad). The Baghdad Bob syndrome is not so unusual.

Historians, both Western and Islamic, have oft noted that Moslem culture is more fantasy prone than modern, Western cultures. History has shown that Islam was passed by as the Renaissance, the European enlightenment, and finally the scientific-technological revolution, all predicated on free thought and open debate, allowed the West to surge ahead and forge new avenues of social, political and economic advances.

Shouldn't someone concerned with facts come to an issue with an open mind and endeavor to determine the TRUTH, and then from there determine what is inaccurate? If you approach these things with such a bias, you will always be able to prove to yourself, somehow, that they contain lies.

Do you understand this? You are a propagandist, - and a poor one at that. You have no facts on this issue, you bring nothing useful for discussion. You are personally acknowledging your bias, and you are asking strangers on a public forum to help you justify your bias in your mind.

Doesn't that, at the very least, make you feel dirty?

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, Hollie, et al,

Yes, it is quite fashionable these day, especially in the Middle East, to blame America for everything that happens which the various population don't like. It is that immature behavior of not accepting responsibility for their actions. It make no difference what evidence you have that America actively worked against HAMAS (a terrorist organization), at the end of the day, it was Palestinians that clashed. It was NOT a case of Americans 'vs' Palestinians; but, Palestinians 'vs' Palestinians. It was their choice and their decision. And some day, they might even understand that in the grown-up world, adults accept the consequences of their actions.

You skipped over the most important part.
Who are these so called leaders and how did they come to power?

Who elected Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization, into power?

(COMMENT)

Even the best the Palestinians had to offer, found it impossible to achieve any worthwhile accomplishments. Within the entire Palestine National Council (PNC)(some ≈ 740 members) it would be hard to find any active gray-matter or synaptic sparks to effectively lead a Girl Scout Troop across the Washington Mall (safely), let alone build an effective government that could lead a people into the 21st Century. Hell, it has been nearly two decades since the PNC did anything for the benefit of the people of Palestine. As Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas vacates the office as Head of the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO-EC), he will remain President of the Palestinian Authority (PA). He really has not accomplished much.

Back in January 2006, HAMAS won 74 seats --- to Fatah's 45 seats, in the bid for a majority in the Palestinian Legislative Council (PLC). Some observers estimate that more than three-quarters of the Palestinian population participated in the elections. But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization. The GPP knew that just in the preceding year (12 months), HAMAS was responsible for 37 terrorist incidents. There is no question that the GPP voted to support an organization that used violent acts --- aimed at attaining a political, economic, religious, and social goals; with the intention to coerce, intimidate, or convey some Jihadist message to a larger audience.

The result was the repercussions we have seen over the last decade. The GPP needs to accept this as a consequence of their actions.

Even today, while many Palestinians approve of HAMAS Terrorist activity, using any and all means as their standard for their behavior, they have never grasped that there is "nothing can justify terrorism — ever. No grievance, no goal, no cause can excuse terrorist acts."

There is no reasonable and prudent man that doesn't understand that in the Arab-Israeli conflict --- terrorism and belligerence are an endemic quality of the GPP, and give rise to containment, security constraints, and countermeasures that adversely impact human rights, human dignity and human life. This is not a matter of Israel not protecting this rights, nor is it a matter of operating with impunity. Whatever limitations to the enjoyment of rights and dignity the GPP might perceive, in the end it is an adverse impact they brought upon themselves - an unintended consequence of their actions. They are so emotionally caught-up in the struggle, that they don't understand that they are making the situation worse for themselves by the behaviors they exhibit.

Most Respectfully,
R

Rocco, you are ducking the question, again.

Who is Abbas? Abbas is an old PLO crony who firmly believes the pack of lies called Oslo. That is his value to Israel. Even though he may appear to be a pain in the ass to Israel at times, he will never abandon the peace process farce or upend the two state solution. The two state solution is just a rename of the partition plan that has failed since 1937. Achieving a two state solution now is more remote than it was in 1937.

Abbas was virtually picked by foreign powers to be the Prime Minister of Palestine in 2003 and was chosen to be the successor to Arafat as president in 2005 by the same foreign powers.

Abbas was sold to the Palestinians as the man who would bring peace. (They did not mention that it was Israel's version of peace.) He was allowed to travel freely throughout the territories to campaign while his major opponent, Dr. Mustafa Barghouti, was detained, beaten, and arrested. Dr. Barghouti suffered a broken knee in one of these beatings.

It would be difficult to predict how different things would be if Dr Barghouti had been elected. But, under his leadership I doubt that Hamas would have been elected.

You forget that Oslo 1 and 2 where international treaties that were signed in the spotlight by Israel and the Palestinians. They are not lies anymore than the Palestinian charter is lies, but a binding legal agreement. It is no ones fault that Arafat did not understand the long reaching ramifications of Oslo but his.

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore, et al,

The Judgement of the General Court (Second Chamber), DEC 14, pertaining to Case T-400/10, HAMAS 'v' EU, may have annulled the previous list, but that doesn't mean the a new decision cannot be issue.

EU keeps Hamas on terror list despite court ruling
30 March 2015,
(BRUSSELS) - The European Union kept Hamas on its terrorism blacklist Friday despite a controversial court decision ordering Brussels to remove the Palestinian Islamist group from the register.

Brussels has lodged an appeal against a December ruling by the bloc's second highest court that Hamas should be delisted for the first time since 2001.

"Hamas stays on list during Council's appeal to December judgement," Susanne Kiefer, a spokeswoman for the European Council said on Twitter.

The appeal process is expected to take around a year and a half.
​

Don't confuse a legal decree --- with --- the political pulse of the individual nations, or the commercial interests and people of the EU. They know what the Islamic Resistance Movement (HAMAS) represents, as will as the al-Qassam Brigades and their associates, the Palestinian Islamic Jihad.

ROCCO: • "But it must be remembered that the Greater Palestinian Population (GPP) understood that they were voting for a Terrorist Organization."​

Hamas are not terrorists in Palestine nor in most of the world including in the UN. They are only terrorists to the name callers in the "West" i.e. Israel's lackeys.

The courts in the EU and Egypt have removed them from the list. I have asked many times what criteria was used for the terrorist designation and everyone dances around that question.

(COMMENT)

As to the criteria used, you have a very short memory. Back, last December, I gave you an extensive criteria list. In the case of the EU --- ANSWERING YOUR QUESTION directly, the criteria is to be found in the European Union (EU) Counter-terrorism Strategy, and in the European Union (EU) specific programme for the period 2007-2013 aimed at supporting projects in the field of prevention, preparedness and consequence management for terrorist attacks and other security-related risks.

The UN doesn't have a definition for terrorism; so their is no list. The UN merely Condemns in the "strongest terms the incitement of terrorist acts and repudiating attempts at the justification or glorification (apologie) of terrorist acts that may incite further terrorist acts." At the world-wide Level, individual victims want the right to define specific events or crimes as terrorist action, without having to satisfy some International Standard.

Finally, as for Egypt, whether HAMAS is on some official list or not, does not hamper their taking the same appropriate action.

It was not but a week ago that Egyptian authorities stopped and detained Hassan Asseify, the Deputy Religious Affairs Minister in Hamas-ruled Gaza, on his way back from Saudi Arabia to the Palestinian enclave. Airport security found his name on the NO-FLY List to enter Egypt. Eventually he was allowed to resume is travel. But, that does not mean all is forgiven. The Egyptian authorities have kept the Rafah crossing closed to nearly all traffic. This was in part because of the Egyptian officials cite recent attacks on army and police personnel in the northern Sinai Peninsula as justification for the closed-border policy. See an open border as a potential risk to security as it will attract both Iranians and DEASH associates to the SINAI.

Most Respectfully,
R

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Naming the EU is very specific, and showing that the EU court failed in its actions and that hamas is still on the list of terrorist organisations could not be any more specific. Time for the UN to have a list of terror groups that is reviewed every year, and those nations who have state sanctioned groups to be banned from taking part. That way there would be no chance of any discrepancies as to which groups are terrorists and which aren't, and hamas would be right up there with IS

 

[Phoenall]

P F Tinmore,

OK Help an old man out.

P F Tinmore,

I don't know what you are looking for.

You are talking about generalizations, speculations, and political opinions.

You consistently avoid anything specific.

Try Article 1

Council Framework Decision of 13 June 2002 on combating terrorism

v/r
R

You missed the point of my question.

(COMMENT)

What is the point to the question?
I gave you the theory and concept, the elements of the offense, and the example set. What is that you want?

Most Respectfully,
R

How does that apply to a national liberation movement that has been on the receiving end of terrorism for a hundred years?

Because they are proven terrorists in many nations eyes, and not liberation movements. From the first murder outside of their enclaves they ceased being liberationists and became international terrorists. JUST LIKE THE IRA, IS, AQ and others.