Pilgrim's HR 3200 Must Read Pages

[Coyote]

This Bill really sucks [/SIZE]

What...you mean this government plan offers to cover the costs of marriage/family therapy?

How dare they!

How dare they try to encourage stability in marriage and reduce divorce rates by offering to cover the cost of counciling!

How dare they cover family therapy for disfunctional or abusive marriage and family situations!

Disgusting!

That's none of their business!

 

[OneWorld]

Agronsky was funny. Buckley was funny. Although they were high brow funny.

Perot is funny.

And meant just any kind of humor, not just political.

What is the ratio of liberal comedians to conservative... 2000 : 1 ? higher?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

This Bill really sucks [/SIZE]

What...you mean this government plan offers to cover the costs of marriage/family therapy?

How dare they!

How dare they try to encourage stability in marriage and reduce divorce rates by offering to cover the cost of counciling!

How dare they cover family therapy for disfunctional or abusive marriage and family situations!

Disgusting!

That's none of their business!

I actually feel that it is none of the govt business. I know you are being sarcastic but honestly the govt has no right or authority to get involved in personal relationships or our indvidual lives IMO(In my opinion).

ONEWORD i'm not ignoring you I am actually going to do what you asked so it may take me a while, i have notes about the bill scattered all over the place on paper and in microsoft word. A lot of my notes are at home on my laptop

 

[Coyote]

Your OP is full of errors and outright.........lies.

To say the least....

In: Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more leverage for ACORN.

Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more leverage for ACORN.

What the hell does that have to do with ACORN?

Nothing. It's about trying to encourage more community based services that operate in the home rather than hospitalization or nursing homes.

 

[Coyote]

This Bill really sucks [/SIZE]

What...you mean this government plan offers to cover the costs of marriage/family therapy?

How dare they!

How dare they try to encourage stability in marriage and reduce divorce rates by offering to cover the cost of counciling!

How dare they cover family therapy for disfunctional or abusive marriage and family situations!

Disgusting!

That's none of their business!

I actually feel that it is none of the govt business. I know you are being sarcastic but honestly the govt has no right or authority to get involved in personal relationships or our indvidual lives IMO(In my opinion).

I totally agree. But that is not what is going on here. All they are doing is including that in reimbursements just like they reimburse doctors visits or psychiatric therapy - they aren't getting involved in any other way. Shoot - I'd love it if my plan covered reimbursement for counseling.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

Your OP is full of errors and outright.........lies.

To say the least....

In: Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more leverage for ACORN.

Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more leverage for ACORN.

What the hell does that have to do with ACORN?

Nothing. It's about trying to encourage more community based services that operate in the home rather than hospitalization or nursing homes.

Those pages show that the govt will give money to private community organizations (such as ACORN since it is the most well known one out there) to go to homes for different things (which i dont want my govt doing to me).

Thats the part where i answered you

 

[OneWorld]

I actually feel that it is none of the govt business. I know you are being sarcastic but honestly the govt has no right or authority to get involved in personal relationships or our indvidual lives IMO(In my opinion).

How does offering something and making it available to people equate to government being involved in your "business"?

Hope that's not an example of the kind of interpretation you're using on the bill. Quite a stretch isn't it?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I actually feel that it is none of the govt business. I know you are being sarcastic but honestly the govt has no right or authority to get involved in personal relationships or our indvidual lives IMO(In my opinion).

How does offering something and making it available to people equate to government being involved in your "business"?

Hope that's not an example of the kind of interpretation you're using on the bill. Quite a stretch isn't it?

Section 1233 ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION actually spells out a 5-year doctor-patient talk that must include:

• An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
• An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
• An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
• The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
• An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—

• the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes
• the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and
• the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy)
• An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently…if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.

…the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.

And to top it off, they’ll update the “MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK” so it contains information about:

• Living wills
• Durable power of attorney
• Orders of life-sustaining treatment
• Health care proxies
• A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including—
• Available State legal service
• Organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning
• Wbsite links or addresses for state-specific advance directive forms
• Any additional information, as determined by the Secretary

I don’t know about you, but as insane as this whole bill reads, this is among the worst of it. The government has no business mandating that my doctor to stick his or her nose into my personal life nor mandating how someone manages their personal affairs or how they want their life to end.

I firmly believe that its the federal governments role to stay out of my way, out of my life, and out of my pocket unless its for national defense.

I know you will probably start listing off roads, FDA, police ect ect ect saying "well the govt does this" but I will counter that in advance with "thats your local and states govt's respnosibility that the citizens of that community get to vote on, not the fed's role"

 

[Coyote]

Your OP is full of errors and outright.........lies.

To say the least....

In: Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more leverage for ACORN.

Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more leverage for ACORN.

What the hell does that have to do with ACORN?

Nothing. It's about trying to encourage more community based services that operate in the home rather than hospitalization or nursing homes.

Those pages show that the govt will give money to private community organizations (such as ACORN since it is the most well known one out there) to go to homes for different things (which i dont want my govt doing to me).

Thats the part where i answered you

So how is that different from such things as the government support of faith based charities heavily pushed by the rightwing?

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

To say the least....


What the hell does that have to do with ACORN?

Nothing. It's about trying to encourage more community based services that operate in the home rather than hospitalization or nursing homes.

Those pages show that the govt will give money to private community organizations (such as ACORN since it is the most well known one out there) to go to homes for different things (which i don't want my govt doing to me).

Thats the part where i answered you

So how is that different from such things as the government support of faith based charities heavily pushed by the right wing?

I don't support the govt doing that either. The Federal govt shouldn't be giving any tax money to faith based or community organizations.

Again that should be a state/local initiative that the citizens directly affected by the program get to vote on. If your town votes to give money to acorn or to the catholic church then I should just STFU about it as your town voted for it. But if some federal bureaucrat behind a desk in Washington who has never even been to my state decides it I have serious and legitimate complaints to make (as that would violate the spirit of the constitution).

 

[Coyote]

I actually feel that it is none of the govt business. I know you are being sarcastic but honestly the govt has no right or authority to get involved in personal relationships or our indvidual lives IMO(In my opinion).

How does offering something and making it available to people equate to government being involved in your "business"?

Hope that's not an example of the kind of interpretation you're using on the bill. Quite a stretch isn't it?

Section 1233 ADVANCE CARE PLANNING CONSULTATION actually spells out a 5-year doctor-patient talk that must include:

• An explanation by the practitioner of advance care planning, including key questions and considerations, important steps, and suggested people to talk to.
• An explanation by the practitioner of advance directives, including living wills and durable powers of attorney, and their uses.
• An explanation by the practitioner of the role and responsibilities of a health care proxy.
• The provision by the practitioner of a list of national and State-specific resources to assist consumers and their families with advance care planning, including the national toll-free hotline, the advance care planning clearinghouses, and State legal service organizations (including those funded through the Older Americans Act of 1965).
• An explanation by the practitioner of the continuum of end-of-life services and supports available, including palliative care and hospice, and benefits for such services and supports that are available under this title.

Subject to clause (ii), an explanation of orders regarding life sustaining treatment or similar orders, which shall include—

• the reasons why the development of such an order is beneficial to the individual and the individual’s family and the reasons why such an order should be updated periodically as the health of the individual changes
• the information needed for an individual or legal surrogate to make informed decisions regarding the completion of such an order; and
• the identification of resources that an individual may use to determine the requirements of the State in which such individual resides so that the treatment wishes of that individual will be carried out if the individual is unable to communicate those wishes, including requirements regarding the designation of a surrogate decisionmaker (also known as a health care proxy)
• An advance care planning consultation with respect to an individual may be conducted more frequently…if there is a significant change in the health condition of the individual, including diagnosis of a chronic, progressive, life-limiting disease, a life-threatening or terminal diagnosis or life-threatening injury, or upon admission to a skilled nursing facility, a long-term care facility (as defined by the Secretary), or a hospice program.

…the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.

And to top it off, they’ll update the “MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK” so it contains information about:

• Living wills
• Durable power of attorney
• Orders of life-sustaining treatment
• Health care proxies
• A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including—
• Available State legal service
• Organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning
• Wbsite links or addresses for state-specific advance directive forms
• Any additional information, as determined by the Secretary

I don’t know about you, but as insane as this whole bill reads, this is among the worst of it. The government has no business mandating that my doctor to stick his or her nose into my personal life nor mandating how someone manages their personal affairs or how they want their life to end.

Kind of reminds me of the anti-abortion arguments where they want certain types of counseling mandated.

I'm not so sure it's a bad thing nor do I think it's invasive - it's providing information - you cna take it or leave it. It does not say anywhere that the patient must give private information in return nor does it mandate ANYWHERE how a private individual should manage their personal affairs. It's about providing information - period.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

True it doesn't say you must do it, but I am suspicious that if you partake in any public option you will have to do it to keep your coverage.

There isn't a final bill yet so i cant say for certain.

 

[Coyote]

True it doesn't say you must do it, but I am suspicious that if you partake in any public option you will have to do it to keep your coverage.

There isn't a final bill yet so i cant say for certain.

To insist on

"must"

"mandate"

"no options"


when it does not say so is dishonest isn't it? Would that not be fear mongering?

How about honest debate about what is really being said...not what the spin is claiming?

 

[veritas]

True it doesn't say you must do it, but I am suspicious that if you partake in any public option you will have to do it to keep your coverage.

There isn't a final bill yet so i cant say for certain.

To insist on

"must"

"mandate"

"no options"


when it does not say so is dishonest isn't it? Would that not be fear mongering?

How about honest debate about what is really being said...not what the spin is claiming?

Pilgrim is being obtuse.

If a doctor has "the talk" he can't leave any options out. That way if a particular doctor has feelings one way or the other, he can't just leave the stuff out he doesn't like.

Got it?

 

[OneWorld]

…the Secretary shall include quality measures on end of life care and advanced care planning that have been adopted or endorsed by a consensus-based organization, if appropriate. Such measures shall measure both the creation of and adherence to orders for life-sustaining treatment.

And to top it off, they’ll update the “MEDICARE & YOU HANDBOOK” so it contains information about:

• Living wills
• Durable power of attorney
• Orders of life-sustaining treatment
• Health care proxies
• A description of Federal and State resources available to assist individuals and their families with advance care planning and advance directives, including—
• Available State legal service
• Organizations to assist individuals with advance care planning
• Wbsite links or addresses for state-specific advance directive forms
• Any additional information, as determined by the Secretary

I don’t know about you, but as insane as this whole bill reads, this is among the worst of it. The government has no business mandating that my doctor to stick his or her nose into my personal life nor mandating how someone manages their personal affairs or how they want their life to end.

I firmly believe that its the federal governments role to stay out of my way, out of my life, and out of my pocket unless its for national defense.

I know you will probably start listing off roads, FDA, police ect ect ect saying "well the govt does this" but I will counter that in advance with "thats your local and states govt's respnosibility that the citizens of that community get to vote on, not the fed's role"

So before I answer this, is this the area you wanted to discuss... because this wasn't the section I addressed. I mean, this is fine or any of them, because just briefly scanning them I can't find one that's true yet.

So shall we proceed because my time is really limited at the moment and I'm going to break down each section for you and be as perspicuous as I can be, so there's no doubt left in your inquisitive mind. And then when I do that, I want to see a concession and admittance that you're being lied to (only if you agree with what we're going to read).... agreed?

 

[edthecynic]

So you want us to debunk this spam e-mail (this is where it came from correct?) about lies from the bill?

It's hard to even want to when the first few are blatant lies.

I had an idea though last night when I was watching the Stewart / Betsy McCaughey interview (big pharma paid liar - although she honestly seems quite nice, like she almost believes what she's saying) ... which was quite entertaining. I got on the daily show bandwagon late, but have found it funny as of late (especially the entire episode last night). It's like comic relief for the complete insanity that's going on.

The Daily Show with Jon Stewart Official Website | Current Events & Pop Culture, Comedy & Fake News <-- extended interview on front page.

Any ways... My idea was... why not put a midnight clause on the first run of the reform. Say in 4 years they have to re-vote it in. This will allow the nutballs to see that it will actually work, and if liberals are wrong (which sorry, not being partisan here, but that's rarely the case), then we revoke it and go back to the immoral insanity that is called American health care.

I mean, I know we'd have to fight an onslaught of disinformation and lies from the industry for 4 years, but I think it could be fought off the more people have direct experience with the new system. Thoughts?

Most of it is accurate thus far. But feel free to disprove anything you dont agree with, give me a direction where the language is, and if you do disprove anything i'll ask for it to be removed.

Daily show is funny but, like i said in another thread, not serious(sorta like glenn beck).

I can't help but notice you won't give credit to your source of this GOP scripted, GOP Hate-Run media distributed crapola. It certainly didn't come from the bill YOU never read!!!

So let me help you:
Blood of Tyrants

 

[edthecynic]

Your OP is full of errors and outright.........lies.

To say the least....

In: Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more leverage for ACORN.

Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more leverage for ACORN.

What the hell does that have to do with ACORN?

Nothing. It's about trying to encourage more community based services that operate in the home rather than hospitalization or nursing homes.

Those pages show that the govt will give money to private community organizations (such as ACORN since it is the most well known one out there) to go to homes for different things (which i dont want my govt doing to me).

Thats the part where i answered you

Again you didn't bother to read the bill YOURSELF, you let GOP fear mongers make up provisions for you because they knew you would never bother to check if you liked their lies.

We have a teachable moment here, because the bill defines what a "Community-based home MEDICAL Model" actually is and it is not ACORN. The GOP programmers know that as long as the word "COMMUNITY" is in the bill, they can define it as "ACORN" and their CON$ervative suckers will swallow it whole and not bother to even check to see if the definition fits ACORN. ACORD does NOT provide MEDICAL services.

From the bill:

468
‘‘(B) COMMUNITY-BASED MEDICAL HOME DEFINED.—In this section, the term ‘commu-17
nity-based medical home’ means a nonprofit 18
community-based or State-based organization 19
that is certified under paragraph (2) as meeting 20
the following requirements: 21
‘‘(i) The organization provides bene-22
ficiaries with medical home services. 23
‘‘(ii) The organization provides med-24
ical home services under the supervision of 25
469
and in close collaboration with the primary 1
care or principal care physician or nurse 2
practitioner designated by the beneficiary 3
as his or her community-based medical 4
home provider. 5
‘‘(iii) The organization employs com-6
munity health workers, including nurses or 7
other non-physician practitioners, lay 8
health workers, or other persons as deter-9
mined appropriate by the Secretary, that 10
assist the primary or principal care physi-11
cian or nurse practitioner in chronic care 12
management activities such as teaching 13
self-care skills for managing chronic ill-14
nesses, transitional care services, care plan 15
setting, medication therapy management 16
services for patients with multiple chronic 17
diseases, or help beneficiaries access the 18
health care and community-based resources 19
in their local geographic area. 20

ACORN: About

Who is ACORN?

Service delivery: ACORN and its allied organizations provide extensive services to our members and constituency. These include free tax preparation focusing on the Earned Income Tax Credit; screening for eligibility for federal and state benefit programs; and, through the ACORN Housing Corporation, first time homeowner mortgage counseling and foreclosure prevention assistance, and low income housing development.

 

[veritas]

Blood of Tyrants is a Tennessee Freeper......


Thanks edthecynic, Now we know pilgrim is a false yankee.


ETA: and a nonattributing sneak as well.

 

[edthecynic]

Blood of Tyrants is a Tennessee Freeper......


Thanks editec, Now we know pilgrim is a false yankee.


ETA: and a nonattributing sneak as well.

I'm not edtec, but you're welcome anyway.

 

[veritas]

Please accept my sincerest apolgies. I fixed it.