Personal Experiences with the Divine

[sealybobo]

But I don't believe and I don't know. No one knows. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist. The only way you could KNOW is either you met god or you are a god yourself.

I know, and I am not God.

Let's take a different approach from the ones you offer, that of faith. Do you know the story of Moses whose eyes had to be shielded when God passed directly in front of him? Some read this story as a revelation about God--that God is seen best in hindsight; His presence, when directly in front of us, "blinds" us, as God is too bright to be seen. Sometimes we see in hindsight; perhaps because He is the expert in, "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing," sometimes it seems all He leaves behind are His fingerprints.

What we know is that it is extremely difficult to prove God's existence in the physical dimension--the dimension that science can help explain. But is the physical dimension the only dimension? Some think there are indications that their are more dimensions than the one in which we exist.

It is also my understanding that the physical never ceases to exist--it may change form and substance, but it does not blink out of existence. If this is so, than all the matter we see now may have always been in existence. Let's switch from physical objects to the spiritual. Note, that we can classify the physical as 'matter'. Is it possible we can do the same for the spiritual? If we can, I would say for the physical, we have matter. For the spiritual, we have life, but perhaps more precisely, love. Is matter and love such an unbelievable/unknowable combination?

Just some more or less random thoughts...not provable in the physical world, of course, but perhaps knowable all the same?

Is the physical dimension the only dimension? No. Does that prove a god exists? No. Philosophers have asked the same questions you have just asked for thousands of years.

The story of Moses? Isn't that the story my uneducated 90 year old Grandmother told me when I was a kid? And who told her? Her very uneducated parents, etc keep going back thousands of years. First of all, I didn't really believe all that stuff she told me. I know a lot of kids did but a lot of us sit there scratching our internal heads.

And that Moses story is a story they came up with on how to explain why no one has ever seen god before. That's what chief cave man told the others in his clan when someone called bullshit on his story.

We also at one point thought the sun was god. See why today god is too bright to look at? Please evolve or grow up.

It's not difficult to prove god's existence. It's impossible because he doesn't exist.

Last thing. I watched a show last night where they talked about coming up with co2 and h2o and helium and nitrogen and hot air balloons. The night before they talked about the invention of glass. In the 1700's they thought everything was god or magic. We don't believe in magic anymore. In every single case where our dumb ancestors thought it was either magic or god, science has proven otherwise. Overtime your god has gotten smaller and smaller. Each time we fill a gap. Its called God of the Gaps. But you need no proof so it would be impossible to convince you no matter how much evidence I give because you choose to believe.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

It appears we may be on two different trains of thought. If it took a creator to create matter (as opposed to matter always being), I envision the Creator beginning with dust--and letting physics take over from there.

The next question is how did life come to innate matter, and we are told it was breathed into us from another living being. This makes sense as life begets life. Our bodies came from matter and will return to matter. What about our spirit?

Some believe it just blinks out. Others believe that much like the body returns to the earth from which it came, our spirit returns to the spirit from which it came. We believe this Spirit is knowable, and that people of all ages, down through the ages, can learn about the spiritual just as we have been able to learn about the material.

And so does the spirit in a frog.

Also, please tell me what created god. Why can't matter be eternal? And instead of admitting we just don't know, why say "must be a god"?

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant. Sorry.

And is it really necessary or does it matter if something created us? I'm not asking Christians, Muslims & Jews. I know they think it does. I'm asking people who believe in generic god. Do people who believe in generic god also think that people need to believe or else? I disagree and even if, a lie is a lie no matter how good you think it is or how good it makes you feel. And I know you guys aren't lying. You truly believe. I get that. So lets call it, from my standpoint an untruth.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

The validity of a claim, such as the existence of god, is not governed by the intelligence of the minds which hold it. Evidence and reason are the deciding factors.

I didn't make a claim, you stupid asshole. I said at least 10 times that it's what I believe and why. You can't order me what to think. You're just another stupid atheist trying to minimize people who disagree with their unsupportable position.

Sir Isaac Newton, one of history’s greatest scientists, was not only intensely religious but also believed in alchemical transmutation. Alchemy is, however, fully incorrect given our modern understanding of chemistry, the atom and nucleosynthysis.

The fact that an intelligent person holds an irrational belief is simply evidence that our brains are able to compartmentalize world-views and models from one another, usually in order to maintain a state of ‘ignorant bliss’ and escape the discomfort of cognitive dissonance.

Since we don't know for sure and they want to believe. I get it. I know the arguments. There must be a god. How could all of this happened by itself?

Not to mention its been hard wired into us for 1000's of years.

There's nothing irrational about being a theist. There is something irrational about adopting a faith while criticizing people of faith. Asshole.

She's not an atheist. She's an Anti-theist.

MAJOR distinction... the former is reasonable, the latter is not.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Also, please tell me what created god.

Why? No one here has the slightest knowledge of God's composition, thus no understanding of God's history, therefore no means to know of God's origin.

The ignorance of ALL of that, by the observer of God, has no bearing on the existence of God.

God is the Creator of the Universe. The Universe exists, therefore that which created it, exists.

It's not even a debatable point.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant.

Based upon what?

(Now friends, I ask her that question so as to ESTABLISH the fact that she cannot answer it. When she demonstrates that she has no basis for her assertion, she then ESTABLISHES AS FACT, that what she asserted as fact, is FALSE. See how that works? Pretty cool, huh?)

 

[Toro]

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant.

Based upon what?

(Now friends, I ask her that question so as to ESTABLISH the fact that she cannot answer it. When she demonstrates that she has no basis for her assertion, she then ESTABLISHES AS FACT, that what she asserted as fact, is FALSE. See how that works? Pretty cool, huh?)

rofl

Well done, PI.

 

[Meriweather]

But I don't believe and I don't know. No one knows. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist. The only way you could KNOW is either you met god or you are a god yourself.

I know, and I am not God.

Let's take a different approach from the ones you offer, that of faith. Do you know the story of Moses whose eyes had to be shielded when God passed directly in front of him? Some read this story as a revelation about God--that God is seen best in hindsight; His presence, when directly in front of us, "blinds" us, as God is too bright to be seen. Sometimes we see in hindsight; perhaps because He is the expert in, "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing," sometimes it seems all He leaves behind are His fingerprints.

What we know is that it is extremely difficult to prove God's existence in the physical dimension--the dimension that science can help explain. But is the physical dimension the only dimension? Some think there are indications that their are more dimensions than the one in which we exist.

It is also my understanding that the physical never ceases to exist--it may change form and substance, but it does not blink out of existence. If this is so, than all the matter we see now may have always been in existence. Let's switch from physical objects to the spiritual. Note, that we can classify the physical as 'matter'. Is it possible we can do the same for the spiritual? If we can, I would say for the physical, we have matter. For the spiritual, we have life, but perhaps more precisely, love. Is matter and love such an unbelievable/unknowable combination?

Just some more or less random thoughts...not provable in the physical world, of course, but perhaps knowable all the same?

Is the physical dimension the only dimension? No. Does that prove a god exists? No. Philosophers have asked the same questions you have just asked for thousands of years.

The story of Moses? Isn't that the story my uneducated 90 year old Grandmother told me when I was a kid? And who told her? Her very uneducated parents, etc keep going back thousands of years. First of all, I didn't really believe all that stuff she told me. I know a lot of kids did but a lot of us sit there scratching our internal heads.

And that Moses story is a story they came up with on how to explain why no one has ever seen god before. That's what chief cave man told the others in his clan when someone called bullshit on his story.

We also at one point thought the sun was god. See why today god is too bright to look at? Please evolve or grow up.

It's not difficult to prove god's existence. It's impossible because he doesn't exist.

Last thing. I watched a show last night where they talked about coming up with co2 and h2o and helium and nitrogen and hot air balloons. The night before they talked about the invention of glass. In the 1700's they thought everything was god or magic. We don't believe in magic anymore. In every single case where our dumb ancestors thought it was either magic or god, science has proven otherwise. Overtime your god has gotten smaller and smaller. Each time we fill a gap. Its called God of the Gaps. But you need no proof so it would be impossible to convince you no matter how much evidence I give because you choose to believe.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

It appears we may be on two different trains of thought. If it took a creator to create matter (as opposed to matter always being), I envision the Creator beginning with dust--and letting physics take over from there.

The next question is how did life come to innate matter, and we are told it was breathed into us from another living being. This makes sense as life begets life. Our bodies came from matter and will return to matter. What about our spirit?

Some believe it just blinks out. Others believe that much like the body returns to the earth from which it came, our spirit returns to the spirit from which it came. We believe this Spirit is knowable, and that people of all ages, down through the ages, can learn about the spiritual just as we have been able to learn about the material.

And so does the spirit in a frog.

Also, please tell me what created god. Why can't matter be eternal? And instead of admitting we just don't know, why say "must be a god"?

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant. Sorry.

And is it really necessary or does it matter if something created us? I'm not asking Christians, Muslims & Jews. I know they think it does. I'm asking people who believe in generic god. Do people who believe in generic god also think that people need to believe or else? I disagree and even if, a lie is a lie no matter how good you think it is or how good it makes you feel. And I know you guys aren't lying. You truly believe. I get that. So lets call it, from my standpoint an untruth.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

I already said matter could be eternal. At the moment, I don't think we know, but the possibility is certainly there. There is also the possibility that there was indeed a creator of dust, and what we see now is that dust forming many things, returning to dust, gathering together again to form--and then return to dust.

There is also the possibility that along with material, there is also spirit/life, again quite possibly from a creator. While I have had experiences of God, I have not been blessed by experiencing the creator aspects of God. My experience has been with a being of immense and tremendous love. I also take care to say that there are more than likely many aspects of God I did not/have not experienced. But I can testify to a being of magnificent love.

No...not material evidence, no proof, nothing you can see, no video, not tape recording. Just a testimony that God loves us all. Wish I could say I witnessed His creating power, but all I witnessed is His love.

 

[PostmodernProph]

Why can't matter be eternal?

wouldn't that rather fuck up the carbon 14 dating method?......

 

[sealybobo]

Also, please tell me what created god.

Why? No one here has the slightest knowledge of God's composition, thus no understanding of God's history, therefore no means to know of God's origin.

The ignorance of ALL of that, by the observer of God, has no bearing on the existence of God.

God is the Creator of the Universe. The Universe exists, therefore that which created it, exists.

It's not even a debatable point.

It isn't ignorant to wonder. It's ignorant to settle on "there must be a god" when the truth is we don't know yet and to keep looking. All the organized religions are man made up so as far as they go, I'm an atheist. As far as a generic god, I'm an agnostic atheist. I lean towards believing there probably is no god but remain open to the possibility. It is an interesting question "what made us?" We've always wondered.

So I'm really just calling out anyone who belongs to an organized religion that claims to have met him hundreds or thousands of years ago.

 

[sealybobo]

Why can't matter be eternal?

wouldn't that rather fuck up the carbon 14 dating method?......

Yea! Ashes to ashes dust to dust. But where does the earth go when it is destroyed? I don't mean when we become like Mars or Venus where no life exists anymore. I mean after the earth itself crumbles into dust. What happens to all that matter? It floats around in space? Eventually it gets sucked into a black hole? We end up orbiting another sun eventually? Who knows for sure? No one. But ask a scientist if you want to know the most likely answer. Don't ask your clergyman.

 

[sealybobo]

But I don't believe and I don't know. No one knows. That's why I'm an agnostic atheist. The only way you could KNOW is either you met god or you are a god yourself.

I know, and I am not God.

Let's take a different approach from the ones you offer, that of faith. Do you know the story of Moses whose eyes had to be shielded when God passed directly in front of him? Some read this story as a revelation about God--that God is seen best in hindsight; His presence, when directly in front of us, "blinds" us, as God is too bright to be seen. Sometimes we see in hindsight; perhaps because He is the expert in, "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing," sometimes it seems all He leaves behind are His fingerprints.

What we know is that it is extremely difficult to prove God's existence in the physical dimension--the dimension that science can help explain. But is the physical dimension the only dimension? Some think there are indications that their are more dimensions than the one in which we exist.

It is also my understanding that the physical never ceases to exist--it may change form and substance, but it does not blink out of existence. If this is so, than all the matter we see now may have always been in existence. Let's switch from physical objects to the spiritual. Note, that we can classify the physical as 'matter'. Is it possible we can do the same for the spiritual? If we can, I would say for the physical, we have matter. For the spiritual, we have life, but perhaps more precisely, love. Is matter and love such an unbelievable/unknowable combination?

Just some more or less random thoughts...not provable in the physical world, of course, but perhaps knowable all the same?

Is the physical dimension the only dimension? No. Does that prove a god exists? No. Philosophers have asked the same questions you have just asked for thousands of years.

The story of Moses? Isn't that the story my uneducated 90 year old Grandmother told me when I was a kid? And who told her? Her very uneducated parents, etc keep going back thousands of years. First of all, I didn't really believe all that stuff she told me. I know a lot of kids did but a lot of us sit there scratching our internal heads.

And that Moses story is a story they came up with on how to explain why no one has ever seen god before. That's what chief cave man told the others in his clan when someone called bullshit on his story.

We also at one point thought the sun was god. See why today god is too bright to look at? Please evolve or grow up.

It's not difficult to prove god's existence. It's impossible because he doesn't exist.

Last thing. I watched a show last night where they talked about coming up with co2 and h2o and helium and nitrogen and hot air balloons. The night before they talked about the invention of glass. In the 1700's they thought everything was god or magic. We don't believe in magic anymore. In every single case where our dumb ancestors thought it was either magic or god, science has proven otherwise. Overtime your god has gotten smaller and smaller. Each time we fill a gap. Its called God of the Gaps. But you need no proof so it would be impossible to convince you no matter how much evidence I give because you choose to believe.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

It appears we may be on two different trains of thought. If it took a creator to create matter (as opposed to matter always being), I envision the Creator beginning with dust--and letting physics take over from there.

The next question is how did life come to innate matter, and we are told it was breathed into us from another living being. This makes sense as life begets life. Our bodies came from matter and will return to matter. What about our spirit?

Some believe it just blinks out. Others believe that much like the body returns to the earth from which it came, our spirit returns to the spirit from which it came. We believe this Spirit is knowable, and that people of all ages, down through the ages, can learn about the spiritual just as we have been able to learn about the material.

And so does the spirit in a frog.

Also, please tell me what created god. Why can't matter be eternal? And instead of admitting we just don't know, why say "must be a god"?

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant. Sorry.

And is it really necessary or does it matter if something created us? I'm not asking Christians, Muslims & Jews. I know they think it does. I'm asking people who believe in generic god. Do people who believe in generic god also think that people need to believe or else? I disagree and even if, a lie is a lie no matter how good you think it is or how good it makes you feel. And I know you guys aren't lying. You truly believe. I get that. So lets call it, from my standpoint an untruth.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

I already said matter could be eternal. At the moment, I don't think we know, but the possibility is certainly there. There is also the possibility that there was indeed a creator of dust, and what we see now is that dust forming many things, returning to dust, gathering together again to form--and then return to dust.

There is also the possibility that along with material, there is also spirit/life, again quite possibly from a creator. While I have had experiences of God, I have not been blessed by experiencing the creator aspects of God. My experience has been with a being of immense and tremendous love. I also take care to say that there are more than likely many aspects of God I did not/have not experienced. But I can testify to a being of magnificent love.

No...not material evidence, no proof, nothing you can see, no video, not tape recording. Just a testimony that God loves us all. Wish I could say I witnessed His creating power, but all I witnessed is His love.

I use to say things like this when I was a theist. Now I just know better. It was all in my head. No biggy.

 

[Meriweather]

I know, and I am not God.

Let's take a different approach from the ones you offer, that of faith. Do you know the story of Moses whose eyes had to be shielded when God passed directly in front of him? Some read this story as a revelation about God--that God is seen best in hindsight; His presence, when directly in front of us, "blinds" us, as God is too bright to be seen. Sometimes we see in hindsight; perhaps because He is the expert in, "Don't let your left hand know what your right hand is doing," sometimes it seems all He leaves behind are His fingerprints.

What we know is that it is extremely difficult to prove God's existence in the physical dimension--the dimension that science can help explain. But is the physical dimension the only dimension? Some think there are indications that their are more dimensions than the one in which we exist.

It is also my understanding that the physical never ceases to exist--it may change form and substance, but it does not blink out of existence. If this is so, than all the matter we see now may have always been in existence. Let's switch from physical objects to the spiritual. Note, that we can classify the physical as 'matter'. Is it possible we can do the same for the spiritual? If we can, I would say for the physical, we have matter. For the spiritual, we have life, but perhaps more precisely, love. Is matter and love such an unbelievable/unknowable combination?

Just some more or less random thoughts...not provable in the physical world, of course, but perhaps knowable all the same?

Is the physical dimension the only dimension? No. Does that prove a god exists? No. Philosophers have asked the same questions you have just asked for thousands of years.

The story of Moses? Isn't that the story my uneducated 90 year old Grandmother told me when I was a kid? And who told her? Her very uneducated parents, etc keep going back thousands of years. First of all, I didn't really believe all that stuff she told me. I know a lot of kids did but a lot of us sit there scratching our internal heads.

And that Moses story is a story they came up with on how to explain why no one has ever seen god before. That's what chief cave man told the others in his clan when someone called bullshit on his story.

We also at one point thought the sun was god. See why today god is too bright to look at? Please evolve or grow up.

It's not difficult to prove god's existence. It's impossible because he doesn't exist.

Last thing. I watched a show last night where they talked about coming up with co2 and h2o and helium and nitrogen and hot air balloons. The night before they talked about the invention of glass. In the 1700's they thought everything was god or magic. We don't believe in magic anymore. In every single case where our dumb ancestors thought it was either magic or god, science has proven otherwise. Overtime your god has gotten smaller and smaller. Each time we fill a gap. Its called God of the Gaps. But you need no proof so it would be impossible to convince you no matter how much evidence I give because you choose to believe.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

It appears we may be on two different trains of thought. If it took a creator to create matter (as opposed to matter always being), I envision the Creator beginning with dust--and letting physics take over from there.

The next question is how did life come to innate matter, and we are told it was breathed into us from another living being. This makes sense as life begets life. Our bodies came from matter and will return to matter. What about our spirit?

Some believe it just blinks out. Others believe that much like the body returns to the earth from which it came, our spirit returns to the spirit from which it came. We believe this Spirit is knowable, and that people of all ages, down through the ages, can learn about the spiritual just as we have been able to learn about the material.

And so does the spirit in a frog.

Also, please tell me what created god. Why can't matter be eternal? And instead of admitting we just don't know, why say "must be a god"?

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant. Sorry.

And is it really necessary or does it matter if something created us? I'm not asking Christians, Muslims & Jews. I know they think it does. I'm asking people who believe in generic god. Do people who believe in generic god also think that people need to believe or else? I disagree and even if, a lie is a lie no matter how good you think it is or how good it makes you feel. And I know you guys aren't lying. You truly believe. I get that. So lets call it, from my standpoint an untruth.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

I already said matter could be eternal. At the moment, I don't think we know, but the possibility is certainly there. There is also the possibility that there was indeed a creator of dust, and what we see now is that dust forming many things, returning to dust, gathering together again to form--and then return to dust.

There is also the possibility that along with material, there is also spirit/life, again quite possibly from a creator. While I have had experiences of God, I have not been blessed by experiencing the creator aspects of God. My experience has been with a being of immense and tremendous love. I also take care to say that there are more than likely many aspects of God I did not/have not experienced. But I can testify to a being of magnificent love.

No...not material evidence, no proof, nothing you can see, no video, not tape recording. Just a testimony that God loves us all. Wish I could say I witnessed His creating power, but all I witnessed is His love.

I use to say things like this when I was a theist. Now I just know better. It was all in my head. No biggy.

There are some things that are "all in our head." And there are some things that are outside of it. I think one of the biggest errors we can make (especially now that our knowledge of science is so much greater) is to think because we now know more about science, we now know everything there is to know--both about science and spirit. We have pieces of a great puzzle, and a puzzle cannot be wholly pieced together if some of its pieces are swept aside or ignored. I still retain great interest in, "How/where does this piece fit in?"

 

[Iceweasel]

It isn't ignorant to wonder. It's ignorant to settle on "there must be a god" when the truth is we don't know yet and to keep looking. All the organized religions are man made up so as far as they go, I'm an atheist. As far as a generic god, I'm an agnostic atheist. I lean towards believing there probably is no god but remain open to the possibility. It is an interesting question "what made us?" We've always wondered.

You are an agnostic if you're being accurate about yourself now. Since you praddle on non-stop about religion it's obvious that you, like most atheists, claim the word for it's anti-Christian use.

Furthermore, it isn't ignorant to believe in god no matter how many times you make the statement. It's ignorant to keep saying it over and over and expecting it to become true. Your misguided will won't overcome others' personal convictions.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Also, please tell me what created god.

Why? No one here has the slightest knowledge of God's composition, thus no understanding of God's history, therefore no means to know of God's origin.

The ignorance of ALL of that, by the observer of God, has no bearing on the existence of God.

God is the Creator of the Universe. The Universe exists, therefore that which created it, exists.

It's not even a debatable point.

It isn't ignorant to wonder. It's ignorant to settle on "there must be a god" when the truth is we don't know yet and to keep looking.

So you're saying that it is NOT ignorant to know God and to wonder of his composition? But that it IS ignorant to know God and to say so and to continue the constant consideration of him, so as to learn more about him and the laws he established by which we can come to know him better... .

Huh... let's see.

What you have there in that syllogism, is an ignorance of logical validity. And just so ya know: your ignorance of the composition of logical validity and your rejection of the laws which define it, does not challenge its existence or the veracity of those who know and adhere to its immutable principle.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Why can't matter be eternal?

wouldn't that rather fuck up the carbon 14 dating method?......

Yea! Ashes to ashes dust to dust. But where does the earth go when it is destroyed? I don't mean when we become like Mars or Venus where no life exists anymore. I mean after the earth itself crumbles into dust. What happens to all that matter? It floats around in space? Eventually it gets sucked into a black hole? We end up orbiting another sun eventually? Who knows for sure? No one. But ask a scientist if you want to know the most likely answer. Don't ask your clergyman.

Where does the dust that goes into the black hole "go"?

Our best scientific THEORIES, would have us "BELIEVE" that it goes into the infinitesimal point of the singularity. I "BELIEVE" that it "goes" into other dimensions. From their my imagination fails me, as there is nothing within my scope of experience that allows me to predict such an outcome.

But in my mind, that serves reason more fully than the 'belief' that matter is merely 'compressed' by gravity, into that which is otherwise NOT matter, at least as we understand it.

It COULD however be matter, existing in a 'time' beyond our means to perceive... thus 'light' within our perception does not exist as it is no longer synced to that which our brain is capable of receiving.

It's all VERY cool to consider, but is otherwise irrelevant to us. And this is because the moment we tried to 'go there'... we'd cease to "BE", thus have no relevant to: here... .

Now... some have asked, if a black hole is where 'matters' departs FROM 'here', where are the portals wherein matter would 'come here'?

I submit to you... that perhaps, matter is not 'going' any "where"... that black holes convert matter into the energy intrinsic to such, and that whatever 'force' is in play relevant to blackholes, it is traversing from one dimension to the next through black holes and Suns.

After all, what is a Sun, if it is not a blackhole in reverse? A massive collection of matter, through which gravity induces a transfer of matter into the expulsion of energy... .

Now... this is the coolest part. Where a 'being', or force... which from our perspective, we have named "GOD", exists within what, from our perspective, we call 'energy', such portals would provide for the 'means' to BE simultaneously, in every dimension, at every 'moment' ... meaning in what from our perspective we call 'the past, present and future'... .


Of course, that's science... providing the perfectly natural explanation of God. So, naturally, the Anti-theist will need to TURN FROM science and back toward the illusional specter of such, which from our perspective, we call: "SCEINCE!".

Pretty cool, huh?

LOL! Let that one sink in and please leave your blown minds by the portal on your way out. You can pick it up on the other side.

 

[sealybobo]

Is the physical dimension the only dimension? No. Does that prove a god exists? No. Philosophers have asked the same questions you have just asked for thousands of years.

The story of Moses? Isn't that the story my uneducated 90 year old Grandmother told me when I was a kid? And who told her? Her very uneducated parents, etc keep going back thousands of years. First of all, I didn't really believe all that stuff she told me. I know a lot of kids did but a lot of us sit there scratching our internal heads.

And that Moses story is a story they came up with on how to explain why no one has ever seen god before. That's what chief cave man told the others in his clan when someone called bullshit on his story.

We also at one point thought the sun was god. See why today god is too bright to look at? Please evolve or grow up.

It's not difficult to prove god's existence. It's impossible because he doesn't exist.

Last thing. I watched a show last night where they talked about coming up with co2 and h2o and helium and nitrogen and hot air balloons. The night before they talked about the invention of glass. In the 1700's they thought everything was god or magic. We don't believe in magic anymore. In every single case where our dumb ancestors thought it was either magic or god, science has proven otherwise. Overtime your god has gotten smaller and smaller. Each time we fill a gap. Its called God of the Gaps. But you need no proof so it would be impossible to convince you no matter how much evidence I give because you choose to believe.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

It appears we may be on two different trains of thought. If it took a creator to create matter (as opposed to matter always being), I envision the Creator beginning with dust--and letting physics take over from there.

The next question is how did life come to innate matter, and we are told it was breathed into us from another living being. This makes sense as life begets life. Our bodies came from matter and will return to matter. What about our spirit?

Some believe it just blinks out. Others believe that much like the body returns to the earth from which it came, our spirit returns to the spirit from which it came. We believe this Spirit is knowable, and that people of all ages, down through the ages, can learn about the spiritual just as we have been able to learn about the material.

And so does the spirit in a frog.

Also, please tell me what created god. Why can't matter be eternal? And instead of admitting we just don't know, why say "must be a god"?

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant. Sorry.

And is it really necessary or does it matter if something created us? I'm not asking Christians, Muslims & Jews. I know they think it does. I'm asking people who believe in generic god. Do people who believe in generic god also think that people need to believe or else? I disagree and even if, a lie is a lie no matter how good you think it is or how good it makes you feel. And I know you guys aren't lying. You truly believe. I get that. So lets call it, from my standpoint an untruth.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

I already said matter could be eternal. At the moment, I don't think we know, but the possibility is certainly there. There is also the possibility that there was indeed a creator of dust, and what we see now is that dust forming many things, returning to dust, gathering together again to form--and then return to dust.

There is also the possibility that along with material, there is also spirit/life, again quite possibly from a creator. While I have had experiences of God, I have not been blessed by experiencing the creator aspects of God. My experience has been with a being of immense and tremendous love. I also take care to say that there are more than likely many aspects of God I did not/have not experienced. But I can testify to a being of magnificent love.

No...not material evidence, no proof, nothing you can see, no video, not tape recording. Just a testimony that God loves us all. Wish I could say I witnessed His creating power, but all I witnessed is His love.

I use to say things like this when I was a theist. Now I just know better. It was all in my head. No biggy.

There are some things that are "all in our head." And there are some things that are outside of it. I think one of the biggest errors we can make (especially now that our knowledge of science is so much greater) is to think because we now know more about science, we now know everything there is to know--both about science and spirit. We have pieces of a great puzzle, and a puzzle cannot be wholly pieced together if some of its pieces are swept aside or ignored. I still retain great interest in, "How/where does this piece fit in?"

But we don't claim to know everything. All we are doing is challenging a thought people have had for thousands of years. Why did they believe? Because they were lied to. Talking snakes, virgin births, etc. So now we have figured all that back then was just speculation. No facts, no proof, never did god come talk to anyone. So we remain open to the possibility but as far as we see there is no god. Your side takes that too personally. Don't. We have discovered that when we say we don't believe you guys get the same feeling in your heart that one gets when one is rejected by someone we are interested in. Realize we aren't rejecting this character at all. We don't believe it exists so there is no character to feel rejected. If he existed we would embrace him of course.

Proposing a non-physical explanation for an observed or imagined/fabricated phenomena is not a testable hypothesis and is therefore unworthy of serious consideration. It precludes any deeper insight or understanding and offers no means of distinction from any other possible supernatural claim.

 

[sealybobo]

There are many as yet unexplained phenomena and anomalies in nature. The scientific approach to these is to say “I don’t know yet” and keep on looking, not to presume an answer which makes us comfortable.

 

[sealybobo]

Is the physical dimension the only dimension? No. Does that prove a god exists? No. Philosophers have asked the same questions you have just asked for thousands of years.

The story of Moses? Isn't that the story my uneducated 90 year old Grandmother told me when I was a kid? And who told her? Her very uneducated parents, etc keep going back thousands of years. First of all, I didn't really believe all that stuff she told me. I know a lot of kids did but a lot of us sit there scratching our internal heads.

And that Moses story is a story they came up with on how to explain why no one has ever seen god before. That's what chief cave man told the others in his clan when someone called bullshit on his story.

We also at one point thought the sun was god. See why today god is too bright to look at? Please evolve or grow up.

It's not difficult to prove god's existence. It's impossible because he doesn't exist.

Last thing. I watched a show last night where they talked about coming up with co2 and h2o and helium and nitrogen and hot air balloons. The night before they talked about the invention of glass. In the 1700's they thought everything was god or magic. We don't believe in magic anymore. In every single case where our dumb ancestors thought it was either magic or god, science has proven otherwise. Overtime your god has gotten smaller and smaller. Each time we fill a gap. Its called God of the Gaps. But you need no proof so it would be impossible to convince you no matter how much evidence I give because you choose to believe.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

It appears we may be on two different trains of thought. If it took a creator to create matter (as opposed to matter always being), I envision the Creator beginning with dust--and letting physics take over from there.

The next question is how did life come to innate matter, and we are told it was breathed into us from another living being. This makes sense as life begets life. Our bodies came from matter and will return to matter. What about our spirit?

Some believe it just blinks out. Others believe that much like the body returns to the earth from which it came, our spirit returns to the spirit from which it came. We believe this Spirit is knowable, and that people of all ages, down through the ages, can learn about the spiritual just as we have been able to learn about the material.

And so does the spirit in a frog.

Also, please tell me what created god. Why can't matter be eternal? And instead of admitting we just don't know, why say "must be a god"?

It/we/everything you see exist because we just do. Or I don't know. Great to wonder but to come up with "must be a god" is ignorant. Sorry.

And is it really necessary or does it matter if something created us? I'm not asking Christians, Muslims & Jews. I know they think it does. I'm asking people who believe in generic god. Do people who believe in generic god also think that people need to believe or else? I disagree and even if, a lie is a lie no matter how good you think it is or how good it makes you feel. And I know you guys aren't lying. You truly believe. I get that. So lets call it, from my standpoint an untruth.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

I already said matter could be eternal. At the moment, I don't think we know, but the possibility is certainly there. There is also the possibility that there was indeed a creator of dust, and what we see now is that dust forming many things, returning to dust, gathering together again to form--and then return to dust.

There is also the possibility that along with material, there is also spirit/life, again quite possibly from a creator. While I have had experiences of God, I have not been blessed by experiencing the creator aspects of God. My experience has been with a being of immense and tremendous love. I also take care to say that there are more than likely many aspects of God I did not/have not experienced. But I can testify to a being of magnificent love.

No...not material evidence, no proof, nothing you can see, no video, not tape recording. Just a testimony that God loves us all. Wish I could say I witnessed His creating power, but all I witnessed is His love.

I use to say things like this when I was a theist. Now I just know better. It was all in my head. No biggy.

There are some things that are "all in our head." And there are some things that are outside of it. I think one of the biggest errors we can make (especially now that our knowledge of science is so much greater) is to think because we now know more about science, we now know everything there is to know--both about science and spirit. We have pieces of a great puzzle, and a puzzle cannot be wholly pieced together if some of its pieces are swept aside or ignored. I still retain great interest in, "How/where does this piece fit in?"

“I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

 

[sealybobo]

Also, please tell me what created god.

Why? No one here has the slightest knowledge of God's composition, thus no understanding of God's history, therefore no means to know of God's origin.

The ignorance of ALL of that, by the observer of God, has no bearing on the existence of God.

God is the Creator of the Universe. The Universe exists, therefore that which created it, exists.

It's not even a debatable point.

It isn't ignorant to wonder. It's ignorant to settle on "there must be a god" when the truth is we don't know yet and to keep looking.

So you're saying that it is NOT ignorant to know God and to wonder of his composition? But that it IS ignorant to know God and to say so and to continue the constant consideration of him, so as to learn more about him and the laws he established by which we can come to know him better... .

Huh... let's see.

What you have there in that syllogism, is an ignorance of logical validity. And just so ya know: your ignorance of the composition of logical validity and your rejection of the laws which define it, does not challenge its existence or the veracity of those who know and adhere to its immutable principle.

Proposing the existence of an entity or phenomena that can never be investigated via empirical, experimental or reproducible means moves it from the realm of reality and into the realm of unfalsifiable speculation. The inability of science to investigate or disprove such a hypothesis is not the same as proving it true and neither does it automatically lend credence to any metaphysical or theological argument. If such reasoning were actually permissible then one could claim anything imaginable to be real or true if only because it could not be proven false.

Relying on supernatural explanations is a cop-out or a dead-end to deepening our understanding of reality. If a natural cause for something is not known, the scientific approach is to say “I don’t know yet” and keep on looking, not to presume an answer which makes us comfortable.

 

[sealybobo]

Why can't matter be eternal?

wouldn't that rather fuck up the carbon 14 dating method?......

Yea! Ashes to ashes dust to dust. But where does the earth go when it is destroyed? I don't mean when we become like Mars or Venus where no life exists anymore. I mean after the earth itself crumbles into dust. What happens to all that matter? It floats around in space? Eventually it gets sucked into a black hole? We end up orbiting another sun eventually? Who knows for sure? No one. But ask a scientist if you want to know the most likely answer. Don't ask your clergyman.

Where does the dust that goes into the black hole "go"?

Our best scientific THEORIES, would have us "BELIEVE" that it goes into the infinitesimal point of the singularity. I "BELIEVE" that it "goes" into other dimensions. From their my imagination fails me, as there is nothing within my scope of experience that allows me to predict such an outcome.

But in my mind, that serves reason more fully than the 'belief' that matter is merely 'compressed' by gravity, into that which is otherwise NOT matter, at least as we understand it.

It COULD however be matter, existing in a 'time' beyond our means to perceive... thus 'light' within our perception does not exist as it is no longer synced to that which our brain is capable of receiving.

It's all VERY cool to consider, but is otherwise irrelevant to us. And this is because the moment we tried to 'go there'... we'd cease to "BE", thus have no relevant to: here... .

Now... some have asked, if a black hole is where 'matters' departs FROM 'here', where are the portals wherein matter would 'come here'?

I submit to you... that perhaps, matter is not 'going' any "where"... that black holes convert matter into the energy intrinsic to such, and that whatever 'force' is in play relevant to blackholes, it is traversing from one dimension to the next through black holes and Suns.

After all, what is a Sun, if it is not a blackhole in reverse? A massive collection of matter, through which gravity induces a transfer of matter into the expulsion of energy... .

Now... this is the coolest part. Where a 'being', or force... which from our perspective, we have named "GOD", exists within what, from our perspective, we call 'energy', such portals would provide for the 'means' to BE simultaneously, in every dimension, at every 'moment' ... meaning in what from our perspective we call 'the past, present and future'... .


Of course, that's science... providing the perfectly natural explanation of God. So, naturally, the Anti-theist will need to TURN FROM science and back toward the illusional specter of such, which from our perspective, we call: "SCEINCE!".

Pretty cool, huh?

LOL! Let that one sink in and please leave your blown minds by the portal on your way out. You can pick it up on the other side.

You could be right about there being "something" that created everything we see. Is that all you are saying is that "something" must have created all that we see? That may be true.

You called it a 'being', or force... which from our perspective, we have named "GOD",

So are you saying this thing never talked to Adam, Noah, Moses, Mohammad or Joseph Smith? It's not really generic god us atheists have a problem with. Why do you think people originally made up the stories? Did they tell those lies on purpose? See this is what blows my mind. When did we go from debating rationally this subject to your side claiming god just visited them?

This subject and all the possibilities have been "blowing our minds" for thousands of years and will continue to for thousands more.

The question is, are theists going to continue to lie about talking snakes, living in a whale for 3 days, virgin births and people living 350 years?

 

[PostmodernProph]

“I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, I think it’s much more interesting that way … I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything. I might think about it a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. It doesn’t frighten me.” – Richard Feynman

I am not frightened by the things I do not know.....I am frightened by the things YOU don't know........