Personal Experiences with the Divine

[sealybobo]

At what point do the stories stop and reality start? A lot of Christians today seem to be able to understand Noah didn't really happen but then they still believe in virgin births and rising from the dead after 3 days of being dead. Impossible.

Now, if the book of Genesis is an allegory, then sin is an allegory, the Fall is an allegory and the need for a Savior is an allegory – but if we are all descendants of an allegory, where does that leave us? It destroys the foundation of all Christian doctrine—it destroys the foundation of the gospel.” - Ken Ham

Actually, "Noah" literally did happen. As did Sodom and Gomorrah... The tower of Babble... and (this is my personal fave... The genesis, wherein the universe began with a great explosion of light... . I like it as much as I do, because Genesis, written many many thousands of years ago... describes the origin of the universe in accurate terms, where the theorist of the "Big Bang", described such in inaccurate terms, assigning an aural quality to that which occurred where there was no medium essential to propagate an aurally relevant wave; thus: No BANG. I forget his name, 7th grade science was a long time ago... but the thesis rested upon the premise that space was filled with aether... which is how the scientists of most the the scientific human history believed that light waves were propagated, enabling light to travel through space. "The Big Bang Theory" being among the last of examples relevant to that misunderstanding of "SCIENCE!"

What's hard to believe about the virgin birth? Matter is merely the shifting of subatomic particles into whatever elements lead to whatever organism... and time is 'alterable', thus all one needs to do to establish a virgin birth is alter time sufficiently to setup the appropriate elements necessary to fertilize an egg and presto... virgin birth.

Where's the mystery?

Do you have a scientific source that backs up your theory or are you getting this from theistopedia?

I am the source. Would you like to state the facts which provide that I am not qualified to advance those theories, or rely solely upon the unfounded, wholly fallacious premise?

I'm good either way... keep me posted on your desires, in terms of how much effort you want to invest in this before you finally concede that 'ya got nothin''.

I think if the Adam story is true and the Noah & Soddom stories are all true, and eventually your god is coming back to destroy most of us and that is written then your god is not perfect. Why does he create horrible humans each time and then wipe us all out just to start over again and all that comes back are a new batch of assholes?

God is not perfect from your perspective. I understand how you'd feel that way. But as a point of fact, your perspective is one of a minor organism on a tiny chunk of rock spiraling through a single and likely insignificant dimension in time... and that such is wrapped in unbridled subjectivity, it likely falls into the abyss of meaningless to a force whose scope is beyond your means to so much as imagine.

But, if it helps... I'm here for ya. So, if nothin' else, ya have that goin' for ya.

I imagine and wonder all the time just like you guys do. The only thing I don't do is claim I know anything.

I also understand when/how & why our primitive ancestors came up with god and I understand why you cling to him.

 

[sealybobo]

Everyone has something useful, even atheists. When an atheist shares their beliefs/disbeliefs, it forces a believer to examine what they believe. Through discussion and debate with those who don't agree with me on things I've found I refine my own beliefs and positions. Wouldn't have done so if never challenged on things. If you only ever talk with those who already agree with you your kwowledge stagnates. Through exposure to those that don't agree with you your beliefs change and become better and stronger. Whether you're wrong or not doesn't matter since ultimately you're left with a more self-convincing arguement for what you believe in.

Of course there is plenty to learn from an Atheist, even regarding matters concerning religion...

However

Your topic is called "Personal experiences with the Divine".

Not
"Your beliefs regarding God(s)
or
"Argue whether or not God(s) Exist
or
"What is God"
or
"Debate whether or not those who have had personal experiences with the divine are just trippin"

Your topic had the potential to be so much more. Hopefully it still does.
​

And yesterday I heard a Christian on Christian radio say that Jesus said until he comes back, no one else will come back from the dead or from heaven. No angels, ghosts, devils, demons or gods. Not until Jesus returns. The guy said anyone who says they have seen a ghost is wrong. They are Christians who stopped reading the bible and they are believing in false things.

He also talked about that New Jersey Medium lady who supposedly talks to dead love ones. He says that's not real.

But I'm sure a lot of you Christians believe that too, even though it goes against what your religion says.

Well contrary to the great misnomer, Christians are not Christ.

Ya see the REASON for God's grace, as delivered through Christ... is that human beings are hopelessly flawed beings.

I'll set aside the potential for veracity wherein an unapologetic anti-theist testifies to her time listening to Christian radio. As a Christian, I find such stations rather tedious. But I'll stop short of suggesting that you're playing fast and loose with the facts, as a means to push a poorly construed analogy.

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Actually, "Noah" literally did happen. As did Sodom and Gomorrah... The tower of Babble... and (this is my personal fave... The genesis, wherein the universe began with a great explosion of light... . I like it as much as I do, because Genesis, written many many thousands of years ago... describes the origin of the universe in accurate terms, where the theorist of the "Big Bang", described such in inaccurate terms, assigning an aural quality to that which occurred where there was no medium essential to propagate an aurally relevant wave; thus: No BANG. I forget his name, 7th grade science was a long time ago... but the thesis rested upon the premise that space was filled with aether... which is how the scientists of most the the scientific human history believed that light waves were propagated, enabling light to travel through space. "The Big Bang Theory" being among the last of examples relevant to that misunderstanding of "SCIENCE!"

What's hard to believe about the virgin birth? Matter is merely the shifting of subatomic particles into whatever elements lead to whatever organism... and time is 'alterable', thus all one needs to do to establish a virgin birth is alter time sufficiently to setup the appropriate elements necessary to fertilize an egg and presto... virgin birth.

Where's the mystery?

Do you have a scientific source that backs up your theory or are you getting this from theistopedia?

I am the source. Would you like to state the facts which provide that I am not qualified to advance those theories, or rely solely upon the unfounded, wholly fallacious premise?

I'm good either way... keep me posted on your desires, in terms of how much effort you want to invest in this before you finally concede that 'ya got nothin''.

I think if the Adam story is true and the Noah & Soddom stories are all true, and eventually your god is coming back to destroy most of us and that is written then your god is not perfect. Why does he create horrible humans each time and then wipe us all out just to start over again and all that comes back are a new batch of assholes?

God is not perfect from your perspective. I understand how you'd feel that way. But as a point of fact, your perspective is one of a minor organism on a tiny chunk of rock spiraling through a single and likely insignificant dimension in time... and that such is wrapped in unbridled subjectivity, it likely falls into the abyss of meaningless to a force whose scope is beyond your means to so much as imagine.

But, if it helps... I'm here for ya. So, if nothin' else, ya have that goin' for ya.

I imagine and wonder all the time just like you guys do. The only thing I don't do is claim I know anything.

I also understand when/how & why our primitive ancestors came up with god and I understand why you cling to him.

No one here that I've witnessed, has made any claim or so much as implied that they 'know everything'.

What they, and myself included have done, is to provide their reasoning, in response to the relevant issues.

They (we) do so in full sight of the certainty that competing points of view will be forthcoming. Everyone here is responsible for sustaining their own reasoning, which includes you.

And just so you know... it is entirely 'fair' that people who advance soundly reasoned opinions, appear to be 'right' when responding to people who profess unsound or other poorly constructed reasoning. What's more, if ONE person is in a room with 25 people and the ONE person is advancing sound reasoning in response to the 25 people who are advancing unsound reasoning, that that ONE person represents 1/26th, thus a stark minority; this in NO WAY ALTERS the fact that the ONE person is right and the 25 other people are wrong.

That is simply the way nature designed it... and that is not going to change.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Of course there is plenty to learn from an Atheist, even regarding matters concerning religion...

However

Your topic is called "Personal experiences with the Divine".

Not
"Your beliefs regarding God(s)
or
"Argue whether or not God(s) Exist
or
"What is God"
or
"Debate whether or not those who have had personal experiences with the divine are just trippin"

Your topic had the potential to be so much more. Hopefully it still does.
​

And yesterday I heard a Christian on Christian radio say that Jesus said until he comes back, no one else will come back from the dead or from heaven. No angels, ghosts, devils, demons or gods. Not until Jesus returns. The guy said anyone who says they have seen a ghost is wrong. They are Christians who stopped reading the bible and they are believing in false things.

He also talked about that New Jersey Medium lady who supposedly talks to dead love ones. He says that's not real.

But I'm sure a lot of you Christians believe that too, even though it goes against what your religion says.

Well contrary to the great misnomer, Christians are not Christ.

Ya see the REASON for God's grace, as delivered through Christ... is that human beings are hopelessly flawed beings.

I'll set aside the potential for veracity wherein an unapologetic anti-theist testifies to her time listening to Christian radio. As a Christian, I find such stations rather tedious. But I'll stop short of suggesting that you're playing fast and loose with the facts, as a means to push a poorly construed analogy.

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

 

[boedicca]

My best personal experience with Divine was seeing "Polyester" in a movie theater that handed out the scratch and sniff cards!

 

[sealybobo]

And yesterday I heard a Christian on Christian radio say that Jesus said until he comes back, no one else will come back from the dead or from heaven. No angels, ghosts, devils, demons or gods. Not until Jesus returns. The guy said anyone who says they have seen a ghost is wrong. They are Christians who stopped reading the bible and they are believing in false things.

He also talked about that New Jersey Medium lady who supposedly talks to dead love ones. He says that's not real.

But I'm sure a lot of you Christians believe that too, even though it goes against what your religion says.

Well contrary to the great misnomer, Christians are not Christ.

Ya see the REASON for God's grace, as delivered through Christ... is that human beings are hopelessly flawed beings.

I'll set aside the potential for veracity wherein an unapologetic anti-theist testifies to her time listening to Christian radio. As a Christian, I find such stations rather tedious. But I'll stop short of suggesting that you're playing fast and loose with the facts, as a means to push a poorly construed analogy.

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

So what? I guess as long as it doesn't matter to you guys if we believe or not, it really doesn't matter to us. However it does seem to matter to you guys. If you kept it to yourselves we'd probably have no problems.

I also think its a stupid idea that keeps people down. So I'm trying to wise people up. I think it negatively affects my society and I'm constantly trying to improve my society and ultimately my quality of life.

For example, if it wasn't for you guys being anti stem cell research, maybe my mom wouldn't have Alzheimers.

 

[Meriweather]

Well contrary to the great misnomer, Christians are not Christ.

Ya see the REASON for God's grace, as delivered through Christ... is that human beings are hopelessly flawed beings.

I'll set aside the potential for veracity wherein an unapologetic anti-theist testifies to her time listening to Christian radio. As a Christian, I find such stations rather tedious. But I'll stop short of suggesting that you're playing fast and loose with the facts, as a means to push a poorly construed analogy.

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

So what? I guess as long as it doesn't matter to you guys if we believe or not, it really doesn't matter to us. However it does seem to matter to you guys. If you kept it to yourselves we'd probably have no problems.

I also think its a stupid idea that keeps people down. So I'm trying to wise people up. I think it negatively affects my society and I'm constantly trying to improve my society and ultimately my quality of life.

For example, if it wasn't for you guys being anti stem cell research, maybe my mom wouldn't have Alzheimers.

Please accept my sincere sympathies on behalf of your mother. Keep in mind there are most likely other ways to defeat Alzheimer's, and that adult stem cells may prove to be a possibility as well.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

Well contrary to the great misnomer, Christians are not Christ.

Ya see the REASON for God's grace, as delivered through Christ... is that human beings are hopelessly flawed beings.

I'll set aside the potential for veracity wherein an unapologetic anti-theist testifies to her time listening to Christian radio. As a Christian, I find such stations rather tedious. But I'll stop short of suggesting that you're playing fast and loose with the facts, as a means to push a poorly construed analogy.

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

So what? I guess as long as it doesn't matter to you guys if we believe or not, it really doesn't matter to us. However it does seem to matter to you guys. If you kept it to yourselves we'd probably have no problems.

I also think its a stupid idea that keeps people down. So I'm trying to wise people up. I think it negatively affects my society and I'm constantly trying to improve my society and ultimately my quality of life.

For example, if it wasn't for you guys being anti stem cell research, maybe my mom wouldn't have Alzheimers.

Nature's design provides that each individual is responsible for themselves... . In no way does your believing or not believing in nature and the demonstrable, observed laws intrinsic to it, change the laws, or effect anyone else, except... where your misbelief, causes you to mislead another who, for whatever reason trusts you and your counsel and as a result is injured by your erroneous and consistently specious reasoning.

As far as I can tell, and after decades of dedicated research into the subject, I can find no evidence wherein an individual or group of individuals who recognize, respect, defend and adhere to the laws of nature that govern human behavior, having ever been injured as a result, or in anyway 'held down' by such.


This in stark contrast to the absolute certainty that injury is axiomatic for those who do not and there's no better word which better describes 'being held down' than 'injured'.

You name it... theft, deceit, sloth, dishonor of every stripe... promiscuity, drunkenness, greed, disregard for the means of others to exercise their rights, disregard for the sustaining responsibilities of one's own rights... all traits and behaviors which can only produce chaos, calamity and catastrophe... the classic formula for 'being held down'.

While turning from all of those traits, has never injured, or 'held down' anyone.

 

[Where_r_my_Keys]

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

So what? I guess as long as it doesn't matter to you guys if we believe or not, it really doesn't matter to us. However it does seem to matter to you guys. If you kept it to yourselves we'd probably have no problems.

I also think its a stupid idea that keeps people down. So I'm trying to wise people up. I think it negatively affects my society and I'm constantly trying to improve my society and ultimately my quality of life.

For example, if it wasn't for you guys being anti stem cell research, maybe my mom wouldn't have Alzheimers.

Nature's design provides that each individual is responsible for themselves... . In no way does your believing or not believing in nature and the demonstrable, observed laws intrinsic to it, change the laws, or effect anyone else, except... where your misbelief, causes you to mislead another who, for whatever reason trusts you and your counsel and as a result is injured by your erroneous and consistently specious reasoning.

As far as I can tell, and after decades of dedicated research into the subject, I can find no evidence wherein an individual or group of individuals who recognize, respect, defend and adhere to the laws of nature that govern human behavior, having ever been injured as a result, or in anyway 'held down' by such.


This in stark contrast to the absolute certainty that injury is axiomatic for those who do not and there's no better word which better describes 'being held down' than 'injured'.

You name it... theft, deceit, sloth, dishonor of every stripe... promiscuity, drunkenness, greed, disregard for the means of others to exercise their rights, disregard for the sustaining responsibilities of one's own rights... all traits and behaviors which can only produce chaos, calamity and catastrophe... the classic formula for 'being held down'.

While turning from all of those traits, has never injured, or 'held down' anyone.

And FTR: I've never met anyone who is anti-stem cell research. You're speaking of those, myself included, who are anti-taking of innocent life, on the unjustifiable basis that such life is an inconvenience, and ripping those pre-born babies to shreds, then trying to find solace in the using of their cells, in the empty hope that there will be cures for all manner of disease in them.

You're not the only one who has witnessed unimaginable suffering. I watched my own mother lay in the hospital ICU literally for months, having suffered a massive embolism. This in the wake of a massive stroke the year before... I watched her struggle to live, then give up... then wake up. I've since watched her claw her way back to some semblance of sanity, watch her husband of more than 50 years pass unexpectedly... then lapse into a prolonged depression, wherein she could not even find the strength to get out of bed to go to the bathroom. She wouldn't eat or drink... languishing, praying to die. Death wouldn't come... I watched her fragile body nearly dissolve until her spine snapped... laying in the hospital again, for months... knowing she'd be paralyzed... we prayed. She recovered... her spine broke again... repeat and rinse.

She's lived with us now for many years... and goes about her life as she pleases. Completely without any medication of any kind. She is perfectly able to recall words of songs not heard for decades, as if she wrote them herself, this morning, but has no means to recall that her youngest daughter killed herself, just a few years ago.

So... yeah, suffering sucks. But stem cells from murdered babies is not a potential cure for any of it.

 

[Coyote]

Religion is a funny thing for me as is my relationship with God and something I rarely open up on because it leaves one open to attack. My extended family holds representatives of a variety of faiths - Episcopal, Russian Orthodox, Morman, Jewish, Baptist, Unitarian, Agnotistic, Buddhist... and I've learned that there are many pathways to God if we open up our eyes to him. But I am very stubborn and resistant. God is very patient though. Every time I think I'm closer to the Divine, some religious jerk says or does something that makes me want to totally repudiate that path and anything to do with organized religion. But then, God does something or shows me something that makes me think. I'm incredibly fortunate and blessed. My problems are usually of my own making. Doors closed but God keeps leaving the windows unlatched. That has happened many times to me. The process of growing has been a process of growing closer to god. I don't know which god or who's brand - but it's the god that created the incredible beauty all around me, that exists in the spark of life in every living thing, that gave us a mind and soul, and granted us the gift to hear his voice in music, dance, and love. One of these days I'll spiral in closer and closer...and be trapped. But it may not be a bad thing

Thanks for sharing. While it's true I love to mock religion, I try to keep religions separate from individual's. Beliefs don't need to be proven to be valid and thus are valid regardless. And when you're talking about religious beliefs, once you've conceeded a god exists, everything else is kinda moot to be making fun of.

That's a good point. I try to respect a person's religious point of view - as long as my own are treated with respect. But I can't help making fun of things. God gave us humor for a reason and I sometimes think humanity is his idea of cosmic joke. If we were given humor, we ought to use it don't you think? And no...they don't need to be "proven". They really can't be, that is why they are called "faith". And why do they have to be subject to the scientific method?

The way I see it, religion and science are both languages that help us understand the world and make sense of our place in it. They are different languages - neither better nor worse. Some languages are better describing certain things than other languages. If we want to talk about the "why" - why are we here and what is our purpose? Neuroscience can only take us so far. The languages of religion can transcend science take us further. If you can speak both languages you are that much richer. They don't have to be in opposition. Where problems arise are when someone insists there is only one valid language or when they try to force concepts into the wrong language and pass them off fraudulently. For example - insisting that Creationism - if you label it "intelligent design" - becomes Science.

I think it's entirely possible, and simply due to the law of large numbers, all earthly religions could well be wrong about God. Even if just 1 planet per galaxy has intelligent life on par with us, that's still 100 billion planets with religions about some sort of God. That our's contains one or more right versions is 100 billion to 1 against. So I try to keep the door open on the question while trying to come up with better questions. Trying to answer the questions we continue asking doesn't work since we've been asking them for thousands of years. That we still do suggests they're not very good since they can't be answered conclusively. But as long as we keep asking better questions, maybe that's as good as it needs to be. Maybe searching for God is more useful than believing in it.

The value is in the journey?

I look at religions around the world, and I think it's like the blind men and the elephant. We each see only a tiny part of God, interpreted through the lens of our cultures. If we ever put it all together, maybe that would be the end of the world I like searching

 

[sealybobo]

OR, they have a different spin than you. That shouldn't surprise you. Show me 1000 people who believe in "god" and they'll all believe something different. Like snowflakes no 2 gods are the same.

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

So what? I guess as long as it doesn't matter to you guys if we believe or not, it really doesn't matter to us. However it does seem to matter to you guys. If you kept it to yourselves we'd probably have no problems.

I also think its a stupid idea that keeps people down. So I'm trying to wise people up. I think it negatively affects my society and I'm constantly trying to improve my society and ultimately my quality of life.

For example, if it wasn't for you guys being anti stem cell research, maybe my mom wouldn't have Alzheimers.

Please accept my sincere sympathies on behalf of your mother. Keep in mind there are most likely other ways to defeat Alzheimer's, and that adult stem cells may prove to be a possibility as well.

Thanks.

There are other ways to defeat Alzheimers? Maybe. We haven't found them yet. So why would you not try stem cell if science says it's the most likely way they will figure it out? Because of your religious beliefs?

What's wrong with the other kind of stem cell research? What is the difference? Why didn't they just go with adult stem cells originally?

The point is they wanted to ban "stem cell" research because of their religious beliefs. So don't tell me us atheists try to impose our beliefs on you guys and you guys don't do it to us. We may want you to take down all signs of god in public buildings but we aren't holding back science that will be the ones who eventually cure things like Alzheimers. It certainly won't be god or a church.

Then I think about Terry Shaivo. Remember they didn't want to pull the plug because the religious right decided to make her a political football? I had a grandfather die once. It took about a day or two too long. They should have given him a shot to end his suffering. If you want your family member to suffer needlessly, go for it. I say it should be our families right to end our loveones suffering. We don't care what you think about god. So now places like Oregon allow suicide. Great! That's just like in Texas where they went from 30 abortion clinics to 6. Rich people will be able to drive and pay but poor people won't. The exact people we don't want having kids will because they can't afford to pay or drive long distances. Why make it harder for people who want abortions to get them? Let them have them! It's not a mistake. Everyone who gets an abortion meant to get an abortion.

 

[sealybobo]

Fine... Now explain how that is important to anything.

Makes me think its all made up.

Again.... that's fine. Now ... so what?

So what? I guess as long as it doesn't matter to you guys if we believe or not, it really doesn't matter to us. However it does seem to matter to you guys. If you kept it to yourselves we'd probably have no problems.

I also think its a stupid idea that keeps people down. So I'm trying to wise people up. I think it negatively affects my society and I'm constantly trying to improve my society and ultimately my quality of life.

For example, if it wasn't for you guys being anti stem cell research, maybe my mom wouldn't have Alzheimers.

Nature's design provides that each individual is responsible for themselves... . In no way does your believing or not believing in nature and the demonstrable, observed laws intrinsic to it, change the laws, or effect anyone else, except... where your misbelief, causes you to mislead another who, for whatever reason trusts you and your counsel and as a result is injured by your erroneous and consistently specious reasoning.

As far as I can tell, and after decades of dedicated research into the subject, I can find no evidence wherein an individual or group of individuals who recognize, respect, defend and adhere to the laws of nature that govern human behavior, having ever been injured as a result, or in anyway 'held down' by such.


This in stark contrast to the absolute certainty that injury is axiomatic for those who do not and there's no better word which better describes 'being held down' than 'injured'.

You name it... theft, deceit, sloth, dishonor of every stripe... promiscuity, drunkenness, greed, disregard for the means of others to exercise their rights, disregard for the sustaining responsibilities of one's own rights... all traits and behaviors which can only produce chaos, calamity and catastrophe... the classic formula for 'being held down'.

While turning from all of those traits, has never injured, or 'held down' anyone.

And FTR: I've never met anyone who is anti-stem cell research. You're speaking of those, myself included, who are anti-taking of innocent life, on the unjustifiable basis that such life is an inconvenience, and ripping those pre-born babies to shreds, then trying to find solace in the using of their cells, in the empty hope that there will be cures for all manner of disease in them.

You're not the only one who has witnessed unimaginable suffering. I watched my own mother lay in the hospital ICU literally for months, having suffered a massive embolism. This in the wake of a massive stroke the year before... I watched her struggle to live, then give up... then wake up. I've since watched her claw her way back to some semblance of sanity, watch her husband of more than 50 years pass unexpectedly... then lapse into a prolonged depression, wherein she could not even find the strength to get out of bed to go to the bathroom. She wouldn't eat or drink... languishing, praying to die. Death wouldn't come... I watched her fragile body nearly dissolve until her spine snapped... laying in the hospital again, for months... knowing she'd be paralyzed... we prayed. She recovered... her spine broke again... repeat and rinse.

She's lived with us now for many years... and goes about her life as she pleases. Completely without any medication of any kind. She is perfectly able to recall words of songs not heard for decades, as if she wrote them herself, this morning, but has no means to recall that her youngest daughter killed herself, just a few years ago.

So... yeah, suffering sucks. But stem cells from murdered babies is not a potential cure for any of it.

I'd rather experiment on a stem cell than a dog. And look at how much we have figured out by experimenting on animals.

What does the stem cell care? It's dead.

My uncle donated his body to science after he died. What does he care if they experiment on him when he's dead?

 

[sealybobo]

Religion is a funny thing for me as is my relationship with God and something I rarely open up on because it leaves one open to attack. My extended family holds representatives of a variety of faiths - Episcopal, Russian Orthodox, Morman, Jewish, Baptist, Unitarian, Agnotistic, Buddhist... and I've learned that there are many pathways to God if we open up our eyes to him. But I am very stubborn and resistant. God is very patient though. Every time I think I'm closer to the Divine, some religious jerk says or does something that makes me want to totally repudiate that path and anything to do with organized religion. But then, God does something or shows me something that makes me think. I'm incredibly fortunate and blessed. My problems are usually of my own making. Doors closed but God keeps leaving the windows unlatched. That has happened many times to me. The process of growing has been a process of growing closer to god. I don't know which god or who's brand - but it's the god that created the incredible beauty all around me, that exists in the spark of life in every living thing, that gave us a mind and soul, and granted us the gift to hear his voice in music, dance, and love. One of these days I'll spiral in closer and closer...and be trapped. But it may not be a bad thing

Thanks for sharing. While it's true I love to mock religion, I try to keep religions separate from individual's. Beliefs don't need to be proven to be valid and thus are valid regardless. And when you're talking about religious beliefs, once you've conceeded a god exists, everything else is kinda moot to be making fun of.

That's a good point. I try to respect a person's religious point of view - as long as my own are treated with respect. But I can't help making fun of things. God gave us humor for a reason and I sometimes think humanity is his idea of cosmic joke. If we were given humor, we ought to use it don't you think? And no...they don't need to be "proven". They really can't be, that is why they are called "faith". And why do they have to be subject to the scientific method?

The way I see it, religion and science are both languages that help us understand the world and make sense of our place in it. They are different languages - neither better nor worse. Some languages are better describing certain things than other languages. If we want to talk about the "why" - why are we here and what is our purpose? Neuroscience can only take us so far. The languages of religion can transcend science take us further. If you can speak both languages you are that much richer. They don't have to be in opposition. Where problems arise are when someone insists there is only one valid language or when they try to force concepts into the wrong language and pass them off fraudulently. For example - insisting that Creationism - if you label it "intelligent design" - becomes Science.

I think it's entirely possible, and simply due to the law of large numbers, all earthly religions could well be wrong about God. Even if just 1 planet per galaxy has intelligent life on par with us, that's still 100 billion planets with religions about some sort of God. That our's contains one or more right versions is 100 billion to 1 against. So I try to keep the door open on the question while trying to come up with better questions. Trying to answer the questions we continue asking doesn't work since we've been asking them for thousands of years. That we still do suggests they're not very good since they can't be answered conclusively. But as long as we keep asking better questions, maybe that's as good as it needs to be. Maybe searching for God is more useful than believing in it.

The value is in the journey?

I look at religions around the world, and I think it's like the blind men and the elephant. We each see only a tiny part of God, interpreted through the lens of our cultures. If we ever put it all together, maybe that would be the end of the world I like searching

Religion was early primitive man's ATTEMPT at understanding. Everything they believed turned out to be wrong. It was our best guess and they didn't use scientific evidence to come up with any of it. Science is actually the way we truly understand what's going on.

Great example. Last night they were talking about how much glass changed our species. Reading glasses, telescopes, etc. Old priests who could no longer read their bibles came up with it. They discovered that bent glass magnified the letters on the page. They literally thought it was magic.

 

[Delta4Embassy]

Religion is a funny thing for me as is my relationship with God and something I rarely open up on because it leaves one open to attack. My extended family holds representatives of a variety of faiths - Episcopal, Russian Orthodox, Morman, Jewish, Baptist, Unitarian, Agnotistic, Buddhist... and I've learned that there are many pathways to God if we open up our eyes to him. But I am very stubborn and resistant. God is very patient though. Every time I think I'm closer to the Divine, some religious jerk says or does something that makes me want to totally repudiate that path and anything to do with organized religion. But then, God does something or shows me something that makes me think. I'm incredibly fortunate and blessed. My problems are usually of my own making. Doors closed but God keeps leaving the windows unlatched. That has happened many times to me. The process of growing has been a process of growing closer to god. I don't know which god or who's brand - but it's the god that created the incredible beauty all around me, that exists in the spark of life in every living thing, that gave us a mind and soul, and granted us the gift to hear his voice in music, dance, and love. One of these days I'll spiral in closer and closer...and be trapped. But it may not be a bad thing

Thanks for sharing. While it's true I love to mock religion, I try to keep religions separate from individual's. Beliefs don't need to be proven to be valid and thus are valid regardless. And when you're talking about religious beliefs, once you've conceeded a god exists, everything else is kinda moot to be making fun of.

That's a good point. I try to respect a person's religious point of view - as long as my own are treated with respect. But I can't help making fun of things. God gave us humor for a reason and I sometimes think humanity is his idea of cosmic joke. If we were given humor, we ought to use it don't you think? And no...they don't need to be "proven". They really can't be, that is why they are called "faith". And why do they have to be subject to the scientific method?

The way I see it, religion and science are both languages that help us understand the world and make sense of our place in it. They are different languages - neither better nor worse. Some languages are better describing certain things than other languages. If we want to talk about the "why" - why are we here and what is our purpose? Neuroscience can only take us so far. The languages of religion can transcend science take us further. If you can speak both languages you are that much richer. They don't have to be in opposition. Where problems arise are when someone insists there is only one valid language or when they try to force concepts into the wrong language and pass them off fraudulently. For example - insisting that Creationism - if you label it "intelligent design" - becomes Science.

I think it's entirely possible, and simply due to the law of large numbers, all earthly religions could well be wrong about God. Even if just 1 planet per galaxy has intelligent life on par with us, that's still 100 billion planets with religions about some sort of God. That our's contains one or more right versions is 100 billion to 1 against. So I try to keep the door open on the question while trying to come up with better questions. Trying to answer the questions we continue asking doesn't work since we've been asking them for thousands of years. That we still do suggests they're not very good since they can't be answered conclusively. But as long as we keep asking better questions, maybe that's as good as it needs to be. Maybe searching for God is more useful than believing in it.

The value is in the journey?

I look at religions around the world, and I think it's like the blind men and the elephant. We each see only a tiny part of God, interpreted through the lens of our cultures. If we ever put it all together, maybe that would be the end of the world I like searching

I envy people with true faith. Of course my cynical opinion is the ones willing to argue how true their thing is aren't the ones with true faith. If they were they wouldn't need to argue the point. I think then everyone debating reliigon doesn't really believe, but most would like to. In the process of debate they hope to find some way of thinking about it that makes sense to them that they can believe or at least believe more.

Maybe the value's in the journey. If we say we believe in God, we must have a definition for what it is we're believing in. But that doesn't seem possible. If you have a definition for God then belief becomes moot as you can prove that that thing then exists. Whereas if we simply keep looking for God, we believe we're looking for something, but we're not defining it.

 

[Coyote]

Actually, "Noah" literally did happen. As did Sodom and Gomorrah... The tower of Babble... and (this is my personal fave... The genesis, wherein the universe began with a great explosion of light... . I like it as much as I do, because Genesis, written many many thousands of years ago... describes the origin of the universe in accurate terms, where the theorist of the "Big Bang", described such in inaccurate terms, assigning an aural quality to that which occurred where there was no medium essential to propagate an aurally relevant wave; thus: No BANG. I forget his name, 7th grade science was a long time ago... but the thesis rested upon the premise that space was filled with aether... which is how the scientists of most the the scientific human history believed that light waves were propagated, enabling light to travel through space. "The Big Bang Theory" being among the last of examples relevant to that misunderstanding of "SCIENCE!"

What's hard to believe about the virgin birth? Matter is merely the shifting of subatomic particles into whatever elements lead to whatever organism... and time is 'alterable', thus all one needs to do to establish a virgin birth is alter time sufficiently to setup the appropriate elements necessary to fertilize an egg and presto... virgin birth.

Where's the mystery?

Do you have a scientific source that backs up your theory or are you getting this from theistopedia?

I am the source. Would you like to state the facts which provide that I am not qualified to advance those theories, or rely solely upon the unfounded, wholly fallacious premise?

I'm good either way... keep me posted on your desires, in terms of how much effort you want to invest in this before you finally concede that 'ya got nothin''.

I think if the Adam story is true and the Noah & Soddom stories are all true, and eventually your god is coming back to destroy most of us and that is written then your god is not perfect. Why does he create horrible humans each time and then wipe us all out just to start over again and all that comes back are a new batch of assholes?

God is not perfect from your perspective. I understand how you'd feel that way. But as a point of fact, your perspective is one of a minor organism on a tiny chunk of rock spiraling through a single and likely insignificant dimension in time... and that such is wrapped in unbridled subjectivity, it likely falls into the abyss of meaningless to a force whose scope is beyond your means to so much as imagine.

But, if it helps... I'm here for ya. So, if nothin' else, ya have that goin' for ya.

I imagine and wonder all the time just like you guys do. The only thing I don't do is claim I know anything.

I also understand when/how & why our primitive ancestors came up with god and I understand why you cling to him.

I tend to be too scientific in my way of thinking to believe in any religion literally, my mind gets in the way...but there are also questions we simply can't answer. It could be that we just don't have the answers yet or it could be that we can not understand those answers without leaving the language of science.

Why are we here?
What is life?
What is conscience?
What happens after death?
Do we have souls?
Do all living things have souls?
Do created things invested with love or emotion have spirits or souls?
How have some incredibly complex things evolved the way they have - fitting into incredibly complex ecologies like puzzle pieces?

Lots of questions that I can't find the answers to with science as of yet.

 

[sealybobo]

Religion is a funny thing for me as is my relationship with God and something I rarely open up on because it leaves one open to attack. My extended family holds representatives of a variety of faiths - Episcopal, Russian Orthodox, Morman, Jewish, Baptist, Unitarian, Agnotistic, Buddhist... and I've learned that there are many pathways to God if we open up our eyes to him. But I am very stubborn and resistant. God is very patient though. Every time I think I'm closer to the Divine, some religious jerk says or does something that makes me want to totally repudiate that path and anything to do with organized religion. But then, God does something or shows me something that makes me think. I'm incredibly fortunate and blessed. My problems are usually of my own making. Doors closed but God keeps leaving the windows unlatched. That has happened many times to me. The process of growing has been a process of growing closer to god. I don't know which god or who's brand - but it's the god that created the incredible beauty all around me, that exists in the spark of life in every living thing, that gave us a mind and soul, and granted us the gift to hear his voice in music, dance, and love. One of these days I'll spiral in closer and closer...and be trapped. But it may not be a bad thing

Thanks for sharing. While it's true I love to mock religion, I try to keep religions separate from individual's. Beliefs don't need to be proven to be valid and thus are valid regardless. And when you're talking about religious beliefs, once you've conceeded a god exists, everything else is kinda moot to be making fun of.

That's a good point. I try to respect a person's religious point of view - as long as my own are treated with respect. But I can't help making fun of things. God gave us humor for a reason and I sometimes think humanity is his idea of cosmic joke. If we were given humor, we ought to use it don't you think? And no...they don't need to be "proven". They really can't be, that is why they are called "faith". And why do they have to be subject to the scientific method?

The way I see it, religion and science are both languages that help us understand the world and make sense of our place in it. They are different languages - neither better nor worse. Some languages are better describing certain things than other languages. If we want to talk about the "why" - why are we here and what is our purpose? Neuroscience can only take us so far. The languages of religion can transcend science take us further. If you can speak both languages you are that much richer. They don't have to be in opposition. Where problems arise are when someone insists there is only one valid language or when they try to force concepts into the wrong language and pass them off fraudulently. For example - insisting that Creationism - if you label it "intelligent design" - becomes Science.

I think it's entirely possible, and simply due to the law of large numbers, all earthly religions could well be wrong about God. Even if just 1 planet per galaxy has intelligent life on par with us, that's still 100 billion planets with religions about some sort of God. That our's contains one or more right versions is 100 billion to 1 against. So I try to keep the door open on the question while trying to come up with better questions. Trying to answer the questions we continue asking doesn't work since we've been asking them for thousands of years. That we still do suggests they're not very good since they can't be answered conclusively. But as long as we keep asking better questions, maybe that's as good as it needs to be. Maybe searching for God is more useful than believing in it.

The value is in the journey?

I look at religions around the world, and I think it's like the blind men and the elephant. We each see only a tiny part of God, interpreted through the lens of our cultures. If we ever put it all together, maybe that would be the end of the world I like searching

I envy people with true faith. Of course my cynical opinion is the ones willing to argue how true their thing is aren't the ones with true faith. If they were they wouldn't need to argue the point. I think then everyone debating reliigon doesn't really believe, but most would like to. In the process of debate they hope to find some way of thinking about it that makes sense to them that they can believe or at least believe more.

Maybe the value's in the journey. If we say we believe in God, we must have a definition for what it is we're believing in. But that doesn't seem possible. If you have a definition for God then belief becomes moot as you can prove that that thing then exists. Whereas if we simply keep looking for God, we believe we're looking for something, but we're not defining it.

I said that the other day! You know how they say guys like me aren't true atheists because a true atheist doesn't care? I said that the real Christians I know wouldn't even entertain this conversation. So anyone on USMB arguing on the religious boards can't be that sure.

Oh, and I also said that if there is no such thing as an atheist because you would have to be a god yourself to know for sure, the same goes for theists. They say they know god exists but they can't unless they met him or are a god themselves. So either you are an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist.

 

[Coyote]

Religion is a funny thing for me as is my relationship with God and something I rarely open up on because it leaves one open to attack. My extended family holds representatives of a variety of faiths - Episcopal, Russian Orthodox, Morman, Jewish, Baptist, Unitarian, Agnotistic, Buddhist... and I've learned that there are many pathways to God if we open up our eyes to him. But I am very stubborn and resistant. God is very patient though. Every time I think I'm closer to the Divine, some religious jerk says or does something that makes me want to totally repudiate that path and anything to do with organized religion. But then, God does something or shows me something that makes me think. I'm incredibly fortunate and blessed. My problems are usually of my own making. Doors closed but God keeps leaving the windows unlatched. That has happened many times to me. The process of growing has been a process of growing closer to god. I don't know which god or who's brand - but it's the god that created the incredible beauty all around me, that exists in the spark of life in every living thing, that gave us a mind and soul, and granted us the gift to hear his voice in music, dance, and love. One of these days I'll spiral in closer and closer...and be trapped. But it may not be a bad thing

Thanks for sharing. While it's true I love to mock religion, I try to keep religions separate from individual's. Beliefs don't need to be proven to be valid and thus are valid regardless. And when you're talking about religious beliefs, once you've conceeded a god exists, everything else is kinda moot to be making fun of.

That's a good point. I try to respect a person's religious point of view - as long as my own are treated with respect. But I can't help making fun of things. God gave us humor for a reason and I sometimes think humanity is his idea of cosmic joke. If we were given humor, we ought to use it don't you think? And no...they don't need to be "proven". They really can't be, that is why they are called "faith". And why do they have to be subject to the scientific method?

The way I see it, religion and science are both languages that help us understand the world and make sense of our place in it. They are different languages - neither better nor worse. Some languages are better describing certain things than other languages. If we want to talk about the "why" - why are we here and what is our purpose? Neuroscience can only take us so far. The languages of religion can transcend science take us further. If you can speak both languages you are that much richer. They don't have to be in opposition. Where problems arise are when someone insists there is only one valid language or when they try to force concepts into the wrong language and pass them off fraudulently. For example - insisting that Creationism - if you label it "intelligent design" - becomes Science.

I think it's entirely possible, and simply due to the law of large numbers, all earthly religions could well be wrong about God. Even if just 1 planet per galaxy has intelligent life on par with us, that's still 100 billion planets with religions about some sort of God. That our's contains one or more right versions is 100 billion to 1 against. So I try to keep the door open on the question while trying to come up with better questions. Trying to answer the questions we continue asking doesn't work since we've been asking them for thousands of years. That we still do suggests they're not very good since they can't be answered conclusively. But as long as we keep asking better questions, maybe that's as good as it needs to be. Maybe searching for God is more useful than believing in it.

The value is in the journey?

I look at religions around the world, and I think it's like the blind men and the elephant. We each see only a tiny part of God, interpreted through the lens of our cultures. If we ever put it all together, maybe that would be the end of the world I like searching

Religion was early primitive man's ATTEMPT at understanding. Everything they believed turned out to be wrong. It was our best guess and they didn't use scientific evidence to come up with any of it. Science is actually the way we truly understand what's going on.

Great example. Last night they were talking about how much glass changed our species. Reading glasses, telescopes, etc. Old priests who could no longer read their bibles came up with it. They discovered that bent glass magnified the letters on the page. They literally thought it was magic.

And now we know it's not - because new knowledge is always coming to light. Actually...that is what I love about science. It's ability to change and grow and discard old theories as new evidence comes to light or new methods allow us to reassess old ideas.

 

[sealybobo]

Do you have a scientific source that backs up your theory or are you getting this from theistopedia?

I am the source. Would you like to state the facts which provide that I am not qualified to advance those theories, or rely solely upon the unfounded, wholly fallacious premise?

I'm good either way... keep me posted on your desires, in terms of how much effort you want to invest in this before you finally concede that 'ya got nothin''.

I think if the Adam story is true and the Noah & Soddom stories are all true, and eventually your god is coming back to destroy most of us and that is written then your god is not perfect. Why does he create horrible humans each time and then wipe us all out just to start over again and all that comes back are a new batch of assholes?

God is not perfect from your perspective. I understand how you'd feel that way. But as a point of fact, your perspective is one of a minor organism on a tiny chunk of rock spiraling through a single and likely insignificant dimension in time... and that such is wrapped in unbridled subjectivity, it likely falls into the abyss of meaningless to a force whose scope is beyond your means to so much as imagine.

But, if it helps... I'm here for ya. So, if nothin' else, ya have that goin' for ya.

I imagine and wonder all the time just like you guys do. The only thing I don't do is claim I know anything.

I also understand when/how & why our primitive ancestors came up with god and I understand why you cling to him.

I tend to be too scientific in my way of thinking to believe in any religion literally, my mind gets in the way...but there are also questions we simply can't answer. It could be that we just don't have the answers yet or it could be that we can not understand those answers without leaving the language of science.

Why are we here?
What is life?
What is conscience?
What happens after death?
Do we have souls?
Do all living things have souls?
Do created things invested with love or emotion have spirits or souls?
How have some incredibly complex things evolved the way they have - fitting into incredibly complex ecologies like puzzle pieces?

Lots of questions that I can't find the answers to with science as of yet.

It is all those questions you asked that our ancestors asked and how/why they came up with "must be god"

And the best thing to do is say you don't know and keep looking.

Lightning, earthquakes, volcanos, disease, mental illness, speculation, planetary orbits and numerous other phenomena have been historically labelled ‘supernatural’ only to later be more thoroughly and elegantly explained by science. In fact, every mystery ever demonstrably solved has had a non-supernatural explanation. To suggest that science cannot or will not explain a phenomena, and that only theism can, is hubris of the highest order.

Using ‘god’ to explain something explains nothing. God’s supposed powers and how they work are a mystery. An explanation is intended to clarify and extend knowledge. Attributing a phenomenon to the magical powers of a supernatural being does neither. Worse still, this presumption acts to prevent any deeper investigation, being little more than a form of blissful ignorance.

Note: By using ‘god’ to fill gaps in their knowledge theists inadvertently provide a shrinking role for their god as science advances. They also predicate god’s existence on a lack of knowledge, not on any positive argument or evidence.

 

[Iceweasel]

Oh, and I also said that if there is no such thing as an atheist because you would have to be a god yourself to know for sure, the same goes for theists. They say they know god exists but they can't unless they met him or are a god themselves. So either you are an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist.

Atheists exist, they just can't admit it's a faith. Theists do admit it's a faith. Twisting words around only serves to obfuscate the matter.

 

[sealybobo]

Oh, and I also said that if there is no such thing as an atheist because you would have to be a god yourself to know for sure, the same goes for theists. They say they know god exists but they can't unless they met him or are a god themselves. So either you are an agnostic theist or agnostic atheist.

Atheists exist, they just can't admit it's a faith. Theists do admit it's a faith. Twisting words around only serves to obfuscate the matter.

Number 24 says you are wrong and here is why

Calling atheism a religion is like calling bald a hair color, or not collecting stamps a hobby.

Atheism is simply a lack of belief in a god or gods, nothing more. If we deconstruct the term ‘atheism’ we find ‘a – theism’ which means ‘without – theism’ which, in turn, means ‘without – belief in god(s)’. It is, therefore, not a positive belief or a claim to knowledge. Instead, it is the default position of doubt, uncertainty and skepticism one may have regarding claims made by theists. Just as it takes no faith to lack belief or remain uncertain concerning any other imaginable claim, it takes none to doubt the existence of a god or gods. See also: Atheism is based on faith, Russell’s Teapot.

Every human-being ever born begins life as an implicit atheist and must be taught the concept of theism or, more commonly, indoctrinated with it.

Atheism has no sacred texts, objects, places or times, no rituals or creation stories, no positive beliefs, central tenants, modes of worship or supernatural claims, no implicit or derived moral codes, philosophies or world views and no central organisation or church. It fulfills none of the criteria that define a religion. See also: Atheism is a religion.

Atheists may subscribe to any additional ideologies, philosophies and belief systems they choose, eg. Buddhism, Jainism, Universalism, Environmentalism, Pragmatism, Liberalism, Socialism, Libertarianism, Conservatism, etc. They may even appreciate components of traditional religion and spiritualism, including any supernatural elements unrelated to a god. Common among many atheists, however, is an appreciation for secularism, rationalism, humanism, skepticism, naturalism, materialism and freethinking – none of which are implicit or derived from atheism, nor necessary in order to lack belief.

See also: A Lack of Belief in Gods for a short introduction to atheism (a must watch), Sam Harris – Misconceptions about Atheism (a must watch), Putting faith in it’s place (a must watch).

“To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldn’t be wrong to ask.” – Geoff Mather

Why there is no god