Pagan roots of Valentines (Lupercalia) Day Exposed

[Book of Jeremiah]

Here is another question for you, Cern. Which witch is a witch? Anton Lavey's daughter - founder of the Church of Satan - says she is a witch. There are people who are Pagan witches who vehemently disagree and claim that she is not a witch. Which witches wear pentagrams? Witch witches wear black robes during rituals? Which witches participate in the sacrifice of animals or humans. How many witches are card carrying members of the Church of Satan and how many in their coven know who they are? Where is that line?

Quoting Bill Schoenbelen: The Book of Shadows highest levels of rituals have whole passages quoted verbatim out of Aiwass' demonic dictation, Liber Al vel Legis or The Book of the Law, the bible of Crowley's New Age religion, Thelema. The very core of the Wiccan law, the Wiccan Rede, reads like a pale pastiche of Crowley's command, 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.' The pentagrams, inverted and upright, which are invoked at every Wiccan circle are the signs to invoke the perverse and demonic god, Set.

Aleister Crowley through his relationship with Wiccan leaders Gerald Gardner, Sybil Leek and Alex Sanders did influence Wicca and whether any Witch cares to admit it or not, they are worshipping Satan. It is what it is and there is only one place this can lead the people who are involved in it. To hell.

 

[Czernobog]

Dude...I am so not going down another rabbit hole with you. The point is that you seem to have this concept of witches, and witchcraft that belongs in a fantasy novel, not the real world. Allow me to clue you in. I am 50 years old. Do you know how many magickal battles I have been in during my life? Exactly. Zero. It just doesn't work that way in the real world.

I'm not asking you to go down any rabbit hole, Cern. I merely responded to your reply because what you said was not accurate. In response to your claim that I have a concept about witches and witchcraft that belong in a fantasy novel, I have to tell you that this isn't my concept. What I've given you is the testimonies of people who have prayed for people in witchcraft who have come under attack through spells, hexes, psychic attacks, etc. You say that you have never been in a magickal battle with anyone.

Have you ever been under a psychic attack from another witch? Have you ever been the recipient of someone trying to harm you through witchcraft? Have you ever tried to harm anyone by using a spell to retaliate in response to something that someone did to you? You need not answer those questions I am merely clarifying what I meant in my recounting the testimony of a doctor who ministered to people in a hospital where she witnessed and encountered patients who had come under such an attack.

In fact, there is a former high level Witch named Bill Schnoebelen who wrote an entire book about Wicca. It's called Wicca, Satan's little lie and is available online. Bill states that in his experience as a witch this was a constant problem. He didn't call them magickal battles. He called them psychic attacks / pyschic wars. In his book Bill writes about his coven and the trouble of Witches covens in psychic wars that plagued his city:

But we were never really at peace. We did all the right things and tried to help our people grow, but they never seemed fulfilled either. They acted happy, but their eyes were dark and hollow. They said they were fulfilled but their lives denied it. We were the ONLY married couple in Wicca that didn't get divorced!

Sadly, a majority of the people we tried to help got worse! Many of them became either so filled with their own egos that they could not relate to anyone else or they sank into the mire of drugs or liquor. To or three went quite insane!

in Milwaukee, we had psychic wars between groups. Witches were shooting at each other in the streets because of adultery. Curses were filling the air like mosquitos on a hot Wisconsin night!

Pagans like to make fun of Catholics because of all the wars they started, but the only difference between the Pagans and the Catholics is that the Pagans never ran a government and had the power to raise armies.

I used to read THE GREEN EGG, Tim Zell's Neo-Pagan magazine. Almost every issue contained a vicious feud in the letter columns.

Why? Because you are dealing with sinful, fallen human beings,that's why! God says the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9).

You may not call yourself a Satanist, but if you have not made Jesus Christ your Lord and Master,then Satan is your lord and master. We learned this the hard way! - Bill Schoenbelen Wicca Satan's little White Lie

So there you have it. One man who was the head of a coven in Wisconsin and a very powerful witch who gave his life to Jesus Christ and says that these feuds between witches /covens was a major problem.

Well, I can only speak fro my personal experience, 20 years as a wytch. Have I ever tried to harm anyone? Nope. Not that I haven't been tempted. I have just never been in a situation in which it was worth it. Have you, in all your studies, ever heard of the Witch's Rede? There are two lines that are important, in regards to this discussion:

"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.", and "These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"

Now, a lot of your bubblegum, fluffy-bununy witches will insisthat this is a warning to never hurt anyone. However, that is simply not the case. The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?

This is where the second line comes into play - the 'three-fold law". The three-fold law is pretty straight forward. Anything you do, whether for good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. The Hindus called it Kharma. Even the Jews have a version of it, although they expand it to 7-fold. But, it's a pretty universal concept. So, now the question becomes, if what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. Just be aware that you made a choice, and what comes next is entirely on you. If it isn't, then don't.

This brings us back to your question have I ever harmed anyone. I have, in 30 years, only intentionally harmed one person, and that was indirectly. And I paid the price for it. Willingly. Now, have I unintentionally harmed anyone? Possibly. Like I said, my ability to follow my actions to the results of every single person that those actions will ever have an effect on is limited. See, contrary to what you may believe, witchcraft isn't about power. It is about balance, and personal responsibility.

I'd like to ask you a two part question about the Witch's Rede before you go. You've asked me quite a few questions (4 or 5 at the beginning of our dialogue) and then the question about my being a bible literalist. So if you would allow me to ask you the two part question about the Witch's Rede that you mentioned is a part of your belief system, I believe that would be fair.

Let me know. Thank you.

Ask away.

Thank you. I am going to quote your definition of the Witch's Rede first. Here you say:

Have you, in all your studies, ever heard of the Witch's Rede? There are two lines that are important, in regards to this discussion:

"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.", and "These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"

Now, a lot of your bubblegum, fluffy-bununy witches will insist that this is a warning to never hurt anyone. However, that is simply not the case. The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?
___________

Here is part one of my question,Cern. The Witch's Rede you quote clearly states do no harm. You wrote:

"These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"

First of all, the Thou Shalt Not's of the Bible are not there because God wants to make our lives miserable. The commandments of God are there to protect us and keep us from harm. So when God gave commands to his children against the Pagan use of blood-letting it was with very good reason. God knew that the Pagans were practicing blood sacrifice of some sort and that those practices led to their desire to sacrifice their own children to Molech. Evil leads people in one direction. To darker and darker practices / actions.

The word bloodlust describes the current environment of America and this nation is full of witchcraft and Baal worship of many kinds. How can a Pagan base their religion on Harm no one, do what ye will? The second part of that motto comes from Aleister Crowley whose own doctrines are mixed with Wicca through Gerald Gardner and it is the creed of Satanists. That they do what they will, whatever they want to do, that they can do. Right? And Wicca is using the same creed in the second half of that statement as you can see.

Actually you have that backwards. Crowley took cosmology from a mishmash of Wicca, Totemic Druidism, and Teutonic high magick. It was pretty unintelligible. Hardly surprising, when one understands that Crowley suffered from syphilis, and his brain was pretty much mush by the time he died. Further Gerald Gardner was not a Satanist. You are confusing him with Anton LeVay. And LeVay did make "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" his credo, which is rather the problem with organised Satanism - it is a wholly hedonistic belief system that is, ultimately self-destructive. This is because Levay's "law' completely discounts the most important part. It would be like someone suggesting that the Golden Rule is destructive, by only quoting the "Do unto others" part, while completely ignoring the most important part.

Now how can you harm none and still do what you will do when considering that Pagan's participate in blood sacrifice of animals (and humans in some covens), use their spells, hexes, incantations to harm others (not all but some do) or bring about an outcome that is of their own will over someone else's will.

First, again you have a view of pagans that rarely exists outside of the movies. I have been a pagan for 30 years, have attended over 3,000 public, and private rituals, have led more than 700, and never once did any of those rituals involve an actual sacrifice of any kind (either animal, or otherwise). Now, this is not to say that animal sacrifice was never a part of ritual. It also used to be part of Judeao/Christian ritual. They outgrew it. As far as spells to do harm, well, that is rather the point of the Three-Fold law. Are there wytches who actively try to harm others? Sure. But are you seriously suggesting that the entire religion should be judged on the basis of a few bad actors? Weren't you the one who admonished me, and asked me not to judge your religion on the behaviour of your bad actors?

[Isn't the killing of an animal or human during a ritual doing harm? Isn't casting a spell to cause someone to get into a car accident or die doing harm? Again, this is not about you but about being a Pagan and what some people who are Pagans and involved in witchcraft do.

Is burning the Quran, and effigies of Muslims the loving act of Christianity? Is picketing funerals, and screaming "fag" at the attendees Christian? See the point? Unless you want me to judge your religion by the absolute worst that people do in the name of your religion, I would ask that you not do the same.

[What about the witch that does none of these things. They are pantheists which believe that plants, rocks and animals are just as deserving of respect as humans. Is that possible to do no harm? Jain monks carry a broom wherever they walk sweeping the ground in front of them so they won't step on an ant. What if the broom they are using crushes the ant and it dies anyway? Their broom killed the ant and now they are stuck worrying about the "karma" they will get from that one act. Due to their belief in reincarnation (another lie).

You're right. They are. I have killed insects, and even some vermin. And you know what? I'm pretty okay with whatever karma I may garner from such a minor act. Your own Bible says "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you," I'm pretty sure that your God does not expect you to be flawless in your attempts to live your life, and whatever consequences await you for whatever minor negative acts you have committed in your life are not really going to be all that terrible? Aren't you equally certain of that?

[What about the illegal drugs that witches use? The use of LSD, hashish, which are used often in the higher degrees, for ritual purposes according to former witches who are now followers of Jesus Christ?
What about the lies from Wiccan leaders who have denied the use of drugs even though there are stories such as one priestess who was kicked out of one of (former Witch) Bill Schoenbelen's covens because it was determined that she was a Narc turning in people inside the coven for using drugs. Law abiding citizens? Do not harm yet do what you will? It's a contradiction of the highest order.

Ahhh...now you are talking about legal not harmful. There is a difference. There is nothing in the Rede that requires a wytch to always follow the laws of the land. In fact, paganism encourages its adherents to place ethical above legal every time. I rarely, if ever, worry about legal. I'm much more interested in ethical.

[My second question to you is about the 3 fold law. You say:

The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?

This is where the second line comes into play - the 'three-fold law". The three-fold law is pretty straight forward. Anything you do, whether for good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. The Hindus called it Kharma. Even the Jews have a version of it, although they expand it to 7-fold. But, it's a pretty universal concept. So, now the question becomes, if what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. Just be aware that you made a choice, and what comes next is entirely on you. If it isn't, then don't. - end quote
_____
Let's look at this three fold law, Cern. Anything you do, whether good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. You then say, now the question becomes, is what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. What about do no harm? The three fold law pretty much suspends it while acting in revenge 3 times greater than the harm that was inflicted on said witch. Correct? And according to this 3 fold law the witch is justified in his or her actions so long as they accept what will come back on them. Interesting. Harm none? How do you reconcile this one? You cannot.

Okay. First of all, you are grossly misunderstanding the nature of the universe. It's not like there is some "karmic scorekeeper" out there, sending out armies of vengeance takers on people who "break the rules". It is simply the nature of the universe. If you ump off the roof of a building screaming, "Watch me fly!!!", and you fall to the ground, and break your arm, is it because the Law of Gravity sought to exact its revenge upon you for daring to challenge is? No. It is just the nature of the universe - things fall down and go boom. If you choose to try to pretend that this isn't so, you suffer the consequences. The Law of Reciprocity is no different. "For every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction". "An it harm none, do as thou wilt" is not some grand command of the cosmos that it is required to obey. Rather, it is a warning to people that, if they fail to consider the harm that they do, then we live in a universe of reciprocity, and pretending otherwise will have consequences.

I chose to ignore the rest, as you went from asking questions to preaching. I will gladly ask any honest questions that you have concerning my beliefs. I will not waste my time being preached at. As I have repeatedly pointed out, I am 50. Fucking. years old. I made my theological choices a long time ago, and I am more than willing to accept any consequences, should I have chosen wrong. I don't need, nor appreciate someone blathering at me about my choice, as if they have some new thing to say that I have never heard, nor considered, before.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

I'm not asking you to go down any rabbit hole, Cern. I merely responded to your reply because what you said was not accurate. In response to your claim that I have a concept about witches and witchcraft that belong in a fantasy novel, I have to tell you that this isn't my concept. What I've given you is the testimonies of people who have prayed for people in witchcraft who have come under attack through spells, hexes, psychic attacks, etc. You say that you have never been in a magickal battle with anyone.

Have you ever been under a psychic attack from another witch? Have you ever been the recipient of someone trying to harm you through witchcraft? Have you ever tried to harm anyone by using a spell to retaliate in response to something that someone did to you? You need not answer those questions I am merely clarifying what I meant in my recounting the testimony of a doctor who ministered to people in a hospital where she witnessed and encountered patients who had come under such an attack.

In fact, there is a former high level Witch named Bill Schnoebelen who wrote an entire book about Wicca. It's called Wicca, Satan's little lie and is available online. Bill states that in his experience as a witch this was a constant problem. He didn't call them magickal battles. He called them psychic attacks / pyschic wars. In his book Bill writes about his coven and the trouble of Witches covens in psychic wars that plagued his city:

But we were never really at peace. We did all the right things and tried to help our people grow, but they never seemed fulfilled either. They acted happy, but their eyes were dark and hollow. They said they were fulfilled but their lives denied it. We were the ONLY married couple in Wicca that didn't get divorced!

Sadly, a majority of the people we tried to help got worse! Many of them became either so filled with their own egos that they could not relate to anyone else or they sank into the mire of drugs or liquor. To or three went quite insane!

in Milwaukee, we had psychic wars between groups. Witches were shooting at each other in the streets because of adultery. Curses were filling the air like mosquitos on a hot Wisconsin night!

Pagans like to make fun of Catholics because of all the wars they started, but the only difference between the Pagans and the Catholics is that the Pagans never ran a government and had the power to raise armies.

I used to read THE GREEN EGG, Tim Zell's Neo-Pagan magazine. Almost every issue contained a vicious feud in the letter columns.

Why? Because you are dealing with sinful, fallen human beings,that's why! God says the human heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things (Jeremiah 17:9).

You may not call yourself a Satanist, but if you have not made Jesus Christ your Lord and Master,then Satan is your lord and master. We learned this the hard way! - Bill Schoenbelen Wicca Satan's little White Lie

So there you have it. One man who was the head of a coven in Wisconsin and a very powerful witch who gave his life to Jesus Christ and says that these feuds between witches /covens was a major problem.

Well, I can only speak fro my personal experience, 20 years as a wytch. Have I ever tried to harm anyone? Nope. Not that I haven't been tempted. I have just never been in a situation in which it was worth it. Have you, in all your studies, ever heard of the Witch's Rede? There are two lines that are important, in regards to this discussion:

"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.", and "These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"

Now, a lot of your bubblegum, fluffy-bununy witches will insisthat this is a warning to never hurt anyone. However, that is simply not the case. The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?

This is where the second line comes into play - the 'three-fold law". The three-fold law is pretty straight forward. Anything you do, whether for good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. The Hindus called it Kharma. Even the Jews have a version of it, although they expand it to 7-fold. But, it's a pretty universal concept. So, now the question becomes, if what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. Just be aware that you made a choice, and what comes next is entirely on you. If it isn't, then don't.

This brings us back to your question have I ever harmed anyone. I have, in 30 years, only intentionally harmed one person, and that was indirectly. And I paid the price for it. Willingly. Now, have I unintentionally harmed anyone? Possibly. Like I said, my ability to follow my actions to the results of every single person that those actions will ever have an effect on is limited. See, contrary to what you may believe, witchcraft isn't about power. It is about balance, and personal responsibility.

I'd like to ask you a two part question about the Witch's Rede before you go. You've asked me quite a few questions (4 or 5 at the beginning of our dialogue) and then the question about my being a bible literalist. So if you would allow me to ask you the two part question about the Witch's Rede that you mentioned is a part of your belief system, I believe that would be fair.

Let me know. Thank you.

Ask away.

Thank you. I am going to quote your definition of the Witch's Rede first. Here you say:

Have you, in all your studies, ever heard of the Witch's Rede? There are two lines that are important, in regards to this discussion:

"Mind the Three-fold Laws you should three times bad and three times good.", and "These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"

Now, a lot of your bubblegum, fluffy-bununy witches will insist that this is a warning to never hurt anyone. However, that is simply not the case. The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?
___________

Here is part one of my question,Cern. The Witch's Rede you quote clearly states do no harm. You wrote:

"These Eight words the Rede fulfill: 'An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will'"

First of all, the Thou Shalt Not's of the Bible are not there because God wants to make our lives miserable. The commandments of God are there to protect us and keep us from harm. So when God gave commands to his children against the Pagan use of blood-letting it was with very good reason. God knew that the Pagans were practicing blood sacrifice of some sort and that those practices led to their desire to sacrifice their own children to Molech. Evil leads people in one direction. To darker and darker practices / actions.

The word bloodlust describes the current environment of America and this nation is full of witchcraft and Baal worship of many kinds. How can a Pagan base their religion on Harm no one, do what ye will? The second part of that motto comes from Aleister Crowley whose own doctrines are mixed with Wicca through Gerald Gardner and it is the creed of Satanists. That they do what they will, whatever they want to do, that they can do. Right? And Wicca is using the same creed in the second half of that statement as you can see.

Actually you have that backwards. Crowley took cosmology from a mishmash of Wicca, Totemic Druidism, and Teutonic high magick. It was pretty unintelligible. Hardly surprising, when one understands that Crowley suffered from syphilis, and his brain was pretty much mush by the time he died. Further Gerald Gardner was not a Satanist. You are confusing him with Anton LeVay. And LeVay did make "Do as thou wilt shall be the whole of the law" his credo, which is rather the problem with organised Satanism - it is a wholly hedonistic belief system that is, ultimately self-destructive. This is because Levay's "law' completely discounts the most important part. It would be like someone suggesting that the Golden Rule is destructive, by only quoting the "Do unto others" part, while completely ignoring the most important part.

Now how can you harm none and still do what you will do when considering that Pagan's participate in blood sacrifice of animals (and humans in some covens), use their spells, hexes, incantations to harm others (not all but some do) or bring about an outcome that is of their own will over someone else's will.

First, again you have a view of pagans that rarely exists outside of the movies. I have been a pagan for 30 years, have attended over 3,000 public, and private rituals, have led more than 700, and never once did any of those rituals involve an actual sacrifice of any kind (either animal, or otherwise). Now, this is not to say that animal sacrifice was never a part of ritual. It also used to be part of Judeao/Christian ritual. They outgrew it. As far as spells to do harm, well, that is rather the point of the Three-Fold law. Are there wytches who actively try to harm others? Sure. But are you seriously suggesting that the entire religion should be judged on the basis of a few bad actors? Weren't you the one who admonished me, and asked me not to judge your religion on the behaviour of your bad actors?

[Isn't the killing of an animal or human during a ritual doing harm? Isn't casting a spell to cause someone to get into a car accident or die doing harm? Again, this is not about you but about being a Pagan and what some people who are Pagans and involved in witchcraft do.

Is burning the Quran, and effigies of Muslims the loving act of Christianity? Is picketing funerals, and screaming "fag" at the attendees Christian? See the point? Unless you want me to judge your religion by the absolute worst that people do in the name of your religion, I would ask that you not do the same.

[What about the witch that does none of these things. They are pantheists which believe that plants, rocks and animals are just as deserving of respect as humans. Is that possible to do no harm? Jain monks carry a broom wherever they walk sweeping the ground in front of them so they won't step on an ant. What if the broom they are using crushes the ant and it dies anyway? Their broom killed the ant and now they are stuck worrying about the "karma" they will get from that one act. Due to their belief in reincarnation (another lie).

You're right. They are. I have killed insects, and even some vermin. And you know what? I'm pretty okay with whatever karma I may garner from such a minor act. Your own Bible says "Do unto other as you would have them do unto you," I'm pretty sure that your God does not expect you to be flawless in your attempts to live your life, and whatever consequences await you for whatever minor negative acts you have committed in your life are not really going to be all that terrible? Aren't you equally certain of that?

[What about the illegal drugs that witches use? The use of LSD, hashish, which are used often in the higher degrees, for ritual purposes according to former witches who are now followers of Jesus Christ?
What about the lies from Wiccan leaders who have denied the use of drugs even though there are stories such as one priestess who was kicked out of one of (former Witch) Bill Schoenbelen's covens because it was determined that she was a Narc turning in people inside the coven for using drugs. Law abiding citizens? Do not harm yet do what you will? It's a contradiction of the highest order.

Ahhh...now you are talking about legal not harmful. There is a difference. There is nothing in the Rede that requires a wytch to always follow the laws of the land. In fact, paganism encourages its adherents to place ethical above legal every time. I rarely, if ever, worry about legal. I'm much more interested in ethical.

[My second question to you is about the 3 fold law. You say:

The finally line is pretty self-explanatory - if you are not hurting anyone, you do you. It's all good. Okay. However, remember when I said that humans are notoriously short-sighted? Well, that is pretty much true of all of us.n So, here is the question: How do you know? How do you know if an action you take, whether magickal, or mundane (and, no, the Rede is not restricted to only magickal actions; it is a guide for every decision that a wytch ever makes), is going to hurt someone one? The simple answer is, you can't. Oh! You can be certain about the immediate effects of any choice, but what about the longer effects, what about the effect it has on peripheral individuals that you didn't think of, or possibly know about? So, does this mean that a wytch can never do anything?

This is where the second line comes into play - the 'three-fold law". The three-fold law is pretty straight forward. Anything you do, whether for good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. The Hindus called it Kharma. Even the Jews have a version of it, although they expand it to 7-fold. But, it's a pretty universal concept. So, now the question becomes, if what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. Just be aware that you made a choice, and what comes next is entirely on you. If it isn't, then don't. - end quote
_____
Let's look at this three fold law, Cern. Anything you do, whether good, or for ill, will come back to you three times over. You then say, now the question becomes, is what I want to do worth the consequences? If it is, go for it. What about do no harm? The three fold law pretty much suspends it while acting in revenge 3 times greater than the harm that was inflicted on said witch. Correct? And according to this 3 fold law the witch is justified in his or her actions so long as they accept what will come back on them. Interesting. Harm none? How do you reconcile this one? You cannot.

Okay. First of all, you are grossly misunderstanding the nature of the universe. It's not like there is some "karmic scorekeeper" out there, sending out armies of vengeance takers on people who "break the rules". It is simply the nature of the universe. If you ump off the roof of a building screaming, "Watch me fly!!!", and you fall to the ground, and break your arm, is it because the Law of Gravity sought to exact its revenge upon you for daring to challenge is? No. It is just the nature of the universe - things fall down and go boom. If you choose to try to pretend that this isn't so, you suffer the consequences. The Law of Reciprocity is no different. "For every action, there is an equal, and opposite reaction". "An it harm none, do as thou wilt" is not some grand command of the cosmos that it is required to obey. Rather, it is a warning to people that, if they fail to consider the harm that they do, then we live in a universe of reciprocity, and pretending otherwise will have consequences.

I chose to ignore the rest, as you went from asking questions to preaching. I will gladly ask any honest questions that you have concerning my beliefs. I will not waste my time being preached at. As I have repeatedly pointed out, I am 50. Fucking. years old. I made my theological choices a long time ago, and I am more than willing to accept any consequences, should I have chosen wrong. I don't need, nor appreciate someone blathering at me about my choice, as if they have some new thing to say that I have never heard, nor considered, before.

First of all it was Crowley that influenced Wicca (through Gardner and others - but mainly Gerald Gardner) second, you are justifying the contradictions and flaws in Wicca by deflecting and using arguments which have no bearing whatsoever on the fact that your religion is in fact a cult and a branch off of Satanism. You are serving one and the same devil and using (some of) the same type of rituals / talismans, etc. Finally, the Word of God is the final Word whether you agree with it or not. The Word of God is true. You're involved in the occult. The occult is not a religion although we are now hearing it being referred to as a religion. It's a cult. It's time to call it what it is and stop with the notion that it is somehow harmless. It is downright deadly and no one should have anything to do with it. It's an act of self-destruction.

There is nothing left to discuss.

 

[Czernobog]

There is nothing left to discuss.

I couldn't agree more. Have a good day.

 

[Divine Wind]

yeah? so? Aramaic is a language, Arabic is a language and Hebrew is a language--------so?. The fact that the language which was the language of
what is now "SAUDI ARABIA----is called "Arabic" in English---sorta---since there
are lots of different dialects of "Arabic" today-----does not tell
me anything

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). Who the fuck wants to balance a checkbook using Roman numerals, eh?

 

[irosie91]

yeah? so? Aramaic is a language, Arabic is a language and Hebrew is a language--------so?. The fact that the language which was the language of
what is now "SAUDI ARABIA----is called "Arabic" in English---sorta---since there
are lots of different dialects of "Arabic" today-----does not tell
me anything

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). Who the fuck wants to balance a checkbook using Roman numerals, eh?

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------the stuff got developed in and around
BABYLON-------(later on da mooooslems conquered the great Zoroastrian/
jewish/Christian city somewhere near Basra that was RENAMED Baghdad)
Da mooooslems -----had decided that since they were THERE-----they could
claim both numbers and zero and even glass (Assyrian phonecian/greek GLASS)

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

yeah? so? Aramaic is a language, Arabic is a language and Hebrew is a language--------so?. The fact that the language which was the language of
what is now "SAUDI ARABIA----is called "Arabic" in English---sorta---since there
are lots of different dialects of "Arabic" today-----does not tell
me anything

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). Who the fuck wants to balance a checkbook using Roman numerals, eh?

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------the stuff got developed in and around
BABYLON-------(later on da mooooslems conquered the great Zoroastrian/
jewish/Christian city somewhere near Basra that was RENAMED Baghdad)
Da mooooslems -----had decided that since they were THERE-----they could
claim both numbers and zero and even glass (Assyrian phonecian/greek GLASS)

I've heard that before, Rosie. Didn't the Indians invent chess too? I'm pretty sure it was first played in India. Some say Iran. I think it was India.

 

[Divine Wind]

yeah? so? Aramaic is a language, Arabic is a language and Hebrew is a language--------so?. The fact that the language which was the language of
what is now "SAUDI ARABIA----is called "Arabic" in English---sorta---since there
are lots of different dialects of "Arabic" today-----does not tell
me anything

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). Who the fuck wants to balance a checkbook using Roman numerals, eh?

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------the stuff got developed in and around
BABYLON-------(later on da mooooslems conquered the great Zoroastrian/
jewish/Christian city somewhere near Basra that was RENAMED Baghdad)
Da mooooslems -----had decided that since they were THERE-----they could
claim both numbers and zero and even glass (Assyrian phonecian/greek GLASS)

I've heard that before, Rosie. Didn't the Indians invent chess too? I'm pretty sure it was first played in India. Some say Iran. I think it was India.

Although it appears the game originated in the East, as the link below discusses, it was also a game that evolved over the centuries and geographical travels.

The origin of Chess
The classical research about the origin of Chess concentrated on investigating written and archaeological evidence resulting in opinions about Indian/Persian 1 or Chinese origin of the game. The available evidence was, however, not sufficient for a convincing theory. So the question about the origin of Chess still has to be considered open. Some speculations assumed military, mathematical, or divinification models as the basis for the game. Most scholars of Chess history do, however, agree that the relationships to these models showed after Chess already existed. Another idea, which was part of some theories, was the assumption that Chess, with all its present complexity, was invented by a single person. But this is extremely unlikely.

A significant step towards the better understanding was the founding of the Initiative Group Königstein (IGK2) in 1991 and its seminars, in which the present Chess historians can present their research and opinions. Its member Gerhard Josten looked for evidence in the structure of Chess. He came up with three basic unique elements:the king, the pawns, and the officers (counters, pieces). His theory is that these elements stem from different sources and are combined into present day Chess. This was supposed to be done by either Silk Road merchants, who were waiting for better weather conditions in one of the major trading places like Kashgar in today's Southwest China, or by game enthusiasts in the Kushan Empire. The Kushans had some experience with merging elements from different cultures. Josten suggests that the king and its behavior is taken from the ancient Chinese game Go, the pawns come from Indian racing games and the officers are taken from divinification or astrological methods. I have added an alternative for the astrological roots of the officer-moves with the possibility that their moves are based on the images occurring within the game of Tic-Tac-Toe.

No matter which theory is valid, the importance of the Silk Road for spreading the game is undisputable. Forerunners and the Chinese Variation Board games are very ancient and can be traced back at least 4, 500 years to the first city of Ur and Egyptian paintings. In the 19th century AD Stewart Culin created the theory that all board games had magical or religious origin. This is not evident, for instance, in the three-dimensional Tic-Tac-Toe (Mill), for which a board was engraved by Roman soldiers on the cobble streets of Old-Jerusalem....

 

[Divine Wind]

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). ...

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------...

AKA = Also Known As. Sorry you didn't understand the reference to Hindu in the parenthesis.

 

[irosie91]

yeah? so? Aramaic is a language, Arabic is a language and Hebrew is a language--------so?. The fact that the language which was the language of
what is now "SAUDI ARABIA----is called "Arabic" in English---sorta---since there
are lots of different dialects of "Arabic" today-----does not tell
me anything

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). Who the fuck wants to balance a checkbook using Roman numerals, eh?

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------the stuff got developed in and around
BABYLON-------(later on da mooooslems conquered the great Zoroastrian/
jewish/Christian city somewhere near Basra that was RENAMED Baghdad)
Da mooooslems -----had decided that since they were THERE-----they could
claim both numbers and zero and even glass (Assyrian phonecian/greek GLASS)

I've heard that before, Rosie. Didn't the Indians invent chess too? I'm pretty sure it was first played in India. Some say Iran. I think it was India.

I really do not know------india and iran was-----way back----very close---Afghanistan was, essentially part of the Persian empire. The language URDU which is kinda predominate in Pakistan----includes lots of "farsi" <<< that's Persian. It might interest you to know that ESTHER---in the book of ESTHER----who married the King of Persia-----was preceded by Queen VASHTI------she was Afghani. I guess chess was invented during the time of PERSIAN EMPIRE predominance in the that whole big area

 

[Pogo]

Here is another question for you, Cern. Which witch is a witch? Anton Lavey's daughter - founder of the Church of Satan - says she is a witch. There are people who are Pagan witches who vehemently disagree and claim that she is not a witch. Which witches wear pentagrams? Witch witches wear black robes during rituals? Which witches participate in the sacrifice of animals or humans. How many witches are card carrying members of the Church of Satan and how many in their coven know who they are? Where is that line?

Quoting Bill Schoenbelen: The Book of Shadows highest levels of rituals have whole passages quoted verbatim out of Aiwass' demonic dictation, Liber Al vel Legis or The Book of the Law, the bible of Crowley's New Age religion, Thelema. The very core of the Wiccan law, the Wiccan Rede, reads like a pale pastiche of Crowley's command, 'Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law.' The pentagrams, inverted and upright, which are invoked at every Wiccan circle are the signs to invoke the perverse and demonic god, Set.

Aleister Crowley through his relationship with Wiccan leaders Gerald Gardner, Sybil Leek and Alex Sanders did influence Wicca and whether any Witch cares to admit it or not, they are worshipping Satan. It is what it is and there is only one place this can lead the people who are involved in it. To hell.

You're STILL at it?

Wiccans don't believe in "Satan", clown shoes. That's strictly a Christianist invention.

SMH....

 

[irosie91]

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). ...

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------...

AKA = Also Known As. Sorry you didn't understand the reference to Hindu in the parenthesis.

I got it DIVINE one-----as was confirming it for the MASSES

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

From post #159 for Pogo. I think you may have missed this one which addresses the false belief that Satan is a Christian concept.

If Satan is a Christian concept then how could literally hundreds of pre-Christian and post-Christian religions believe in the existence of Satan by name or a being depicting Satan but using another name for him? Judaism predated Christianity and in the Tenach (Old Testament part of the Bible) there are five "by name" references to Satan. This is the original Hebrew bible. How can you explain this?

How can you explain that the oldest book in the Tenach, in the Book of Job dating from at least 5000 B.C. that Satan's name is mentioned? Satan is identified as the enemy and accuser of mankind in the first chapter of the first book - the oldest book - of the Hebrew Tenach, Cern. The Hebrew prophet Isaiah identifies Satan as Lucifer in Isaiah 14:12-19 and in Ezekiel 28:12-19 we see that Satan was a covering cherub meaning that he was one of the most powerful angels who served to cover the throne of God Himself and it further identifies him as the one who was in charge of the music in heaven before he sinned and was cast out of heaven. Is it any coincidence that one of the most powerful tools of witchcraft is music? The White Album by the Beatles was at one time the most powerful witchcraft music in the world. The witchcraft language used in much rock music is over 4,000 years old. Satan uses music to cast spells as those in Black Witchcraft will tell you (if they are willing). Many famous musicians in Hollywood know this as they have sold their souls to Satan in exchange for fame and money.

Satan's sin was pride and desiring to be like God and that is the very core of Wiccan theology and the New Age movement. Even white witches believe that they will either become gods or goddesses or are part goddess already in relation to pantheistic beliefs.

Satan is identified with the serpent who tempted Eve in Chapter 3 of the 1st book of the Torah called Bereshith and that is 4,000 years before the Christian church was established. So how can you claim that Satan is a "Christian concept?" He isn't.

And what about the monists? Hinduism beliefs that all is one and therefore there can be no evil. Yet in India culture you find the people believe in evil spirits and must placate them or guard themselves against those evil spirits. The population of Hindus is somewhere in the neighborhood of a billion people and a large majority of those Hindus believe in evil spirits. Which is it? There is no evil or there is? Can it be both? No.

Millions of them believe in aboriginal magic or shamanism and then there are the Muslims who believe in Shaitan (which is Satan, same devil) and jinn (which are demons) and so you see that the concept of Satan is not Christian because he isn't a concept. He's a real devil.

In the Egyptian book of the dead, Set is hailed as having been first in order of glory and according to one authority which Schoenbelen mentions Set was looked upon as the fallen leader of the angelic host because he had been the first in glory as the ruling power and so he was worshipped by the Yetzidi in Mesopotamia too (another false belief system but we see that Satan was being worshipped even before Michael Aquino's Temple of Set).

Satan is not a Christian concept. He was worshipped by Nimrod and Semiramis and they did sacrifice babies to him, this establishes the existence of Satan from the beginning days of man being on the earth.

Now the second part of my question is how long would you survive in a society if you assumed that everything you were told was true just because it sounded good to you? Yet Pagans will follow the leading books or spiritual masters without a shred of credentials to confirm what they are reading is true. In fact there is no way to tell whether any books you purchase on witchcraft or metaphysics has any truth in it whatsoever. How do you know these gods and goddesses are who they say they are? Herne, Bodecea...... how do you know they created the earth, because they said so? Because Joe Blow wrote a book about it and says so? How do you know that the Horned god is not your mortal enemy - Satan?

You don't know. You say you are going by your inner intuition? Your heart? The heart is deceitful. You can be misled by your feelings. Did you ever meet someone and think that was the person you were meant to be with? You are sure that they are your soul mate and then they end up stabbing you in the back and you say, Well, I missed it on that one. I don't know how I could have been so wrong, all of my friends said that was my soulmate but boy were they ever wrong! Yes, and I can tell you right now that the people that caused you to fall away from your faith in God in that seminary were wrong too. Very wrong but they looked so angelic, didn't they? Satan can come as an angel of light, Cern. Never forget it.

God's Word is the plumb line, the instruction manual for your life and if you will obey what God's word says you'll find everlasting life and if you do not? You'll find yourself doing things you would never have dreamed you would be capable of doing. Satan's greatest lie is that he doesn't exist. He exists and he is watching you right now to see whether or not you are going to wake up and realize that this entire scene you are into was a trap laid by him to ensnare you and take you to hell.

Satan is not a Christian concept. Satan first arrived in the garden with the same lie he is selling today. Ye shall be like gods, take a bite..... don't fall for it. It's a lie.

Is Satan a Christian concept now that you have seen the evidence proving that he is not? Are you able to see the benefit Satan enjoys by seeing to it that Pagans / Witches do not believe he exists?

Note* I have included Bill Schoenbelen's comments / research in my response and advise you to buy the book, Wicca, Satan's little White Lie. Also his book, Lucifer Dethroned is an excellent source for information that sets the record straight.

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

yeah? so? Aramaic is a language, Arabic is a language and Hebrew is a language--------so?. The fact that the language which was the language of
what is now "SAUDI ARABIA----is called "Arabic" in English---sorta---since there
are lots of different dialects of "Arabic" today-----does not tell
me anything

Don't forget we're using Arabic numerals (AKA Hindu). Who the fuck wants to balance a checkbook using Roman numerals, eh?

misnomer-----DA "ARABS" did not invent either numbers or the concept of
zero. -----Da hindoooos did-------the stuff got developed in and around
BABYLON-------(later on da mooooslems conquered the great Zoroastrian/
jewish/Christian city somewhere near Basra that was RENAMED Baghdad)
Da mooooslems -----had decided that since they were THERE-----they could
claim both numbers and zero and even glass (Assyrian phonecian/greek GLASS)

I've heard that before, Rosie. Didn't the Indians invent chess too? I'm pretty sure it was first played in India. Some say Iran. I think it was India.

Although it appears the game originated in the East, as the link below discusses, it was also a game that evolved over the centuries and geographical travels.

The origin of Chess
The classical research about the origin of Chess concentrated on investigating written and archaeological evidence resulting in opinions about Indian/Persian 1 or Chinese origin of the game. The available evidence was, however, not sufficient for a convincing theory. So the question about the origin of Chess still has to be considered open. Some speculations assumed military, mathematical, or divinification models as the basis for the game. Most scholars of Chess history do, however, agree that the relationships to these models showed after Chess already existed. Another idea, which was part of some theories, was the assumption that Chess, with all its present complexity, was invented by a single person. But this is extremely unlikely.

A significant step towards the better understanding was the founding of the Initiative Group Königstein (IGK2) in 1991 and its seminars, in which the present Chess historians can present their research and opinions. Its member Gerhard Josten looked for evidence in the structure of Chess. He came up with three basic unique elements:the king, the pawns, and the officers (counters, pieces). His theory is that these elements stem from different sources and are combined into present day Chess. This was supposed to be done by either Silk Road merchants, who were waiting for better weather conditions in one of the major trading places like Kashgar in today's Southwest China, or by game enthusiasts in the Kushan Empire. The Kushans had some experience with merging elements from different cultures. Josten suggests that the king and its behavior is taken from the ancient Chinese game Go, the pawns come from Indian racing games and the officers are taken from divinification or astrological methods. I have added an alternative for the astrological roots of the officer-moves with the possibility that their moves are based on the images occurring within the game of Tic-Tac-Toe.

No matter which theory is valid, the importance of the Silk Road for spreading the game is undisputable. Forerunners and the Chinese Variation Board games are very ancient and can be traced back at least 4, 500 years to the first city of Ur and Egyptian paintings. In the 19th century AD Stewart Culin created the theory that all board games had magical or religious origin. This is not evident, for instance, in the three-dimensional Tic-Tac-Toe (Mill), for which a board was engraved by Roman soldiers on the cobble streets of Old-Jerusalem....

On the suggestion that it could possibly have originated in China my one objection to this possibility is the history of the Chinese stealing the ideas of others ./ counterfeiting / reproducing. The Bible teaches us that what has been will be again. We can see where something may go, the nature of a nation or people from what has happened in the past. The history of stealing the ideas of others goes way back with Chinese history even to the writings of Sun Tzu which claimed the battle strategy of fighting with the sun behind you so that the light of the sun shone in your enemies eyes. That wasn't his idea. That came from the Holy Bible and was a command that Joshua was given by God. On the other hand, wasn't it India that was credited with algebra and certain matters of math? I believe it is more likely it originated in India.

 

[kjw47]

A false god is associated with valentines day( cupid)--Gods #1 commandment--thou shalt not have any other gods before your face. This is how satan transforms into an angel of light( 2Cor 11:12-15)--using love-sharing to get one to partake off his table of demons.1Cor 10:21)--- all partaking off of that table will LOSE.
All the holidays are off that table. with their added pagan practices( Easter--Christmas) or killing.( july 4)

 

[Pogo]

Satan's sin was pride and desiring to be like God and that is the very core of Wiccan theology and the New Age movement.

Actually it IS the very core of the orange freak in the White House. There's a "movement" for ya.

So essplain to the class Jeri, if you will....

How come you're against this imaginary "Satan" for sins of "pride and desiring to be like God" and yet support a provably real being that walks among us running his entire existence on the exact same traits?

 

[irosie91]

A false god is associated with valentines day( cupid)--Gods #1 commandment--thou shalt not have any other gods before your face. This is how satan transforms into an angel of light( 2Cor 11:12-15)--using love-sharing to get one to partake off his table of demons.1Cor 10:21)--- all partaking off of that table will LOSE.
All the holidays are off that table. with their added pagan practices( Easter--Christmas) or killing.( july 4)

I have never know ANYONE who considered "cupid" a "god" -----or considered CUPID any more real than is MICKEY MOUSE. Satan never gets to be an
ANGEL OF LIGHT------that idea is kinda a perversion of Zoroastrianism----something like the THREE KINGS FOLLOWING YONDER STAR and the concept of particles of fire taking on PERSONAS. In my culture, July 4 is a holiday celebrating THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE----it does not glorify killing. --------btw a better translation of the first commandment is-----"another "god" in the face of (the real) God " an archaic form of "get that idol outta my face" Satan as a being with a will of his own is a roman form with an underworld realm -----is PLUTO. The original "satan" is not red, has no home, and no pitchfork and no will of his own

 

[irosie91]

Cupid is PUCK----played charmingly be a teenaged Mickey Rooney

 

[Book of Jeremiah]

Satan's sin was pride and desiring to be like God and that is the very core of Wiccan theology and the New Age movement.

Actually it IS the very core of the orange freak in the White House. There's a "movement" for ya.

So essplain to the class Jeri, if you will....

How come you're against this imaginary "Satan" for sins of "pride and desiring to be like God" and yet support a provably real being that walks among us running his entire existence on the exact same traits?

I do not agree with everything that President Trump has done but when you compare his faults / sins with the faults and sins of Hillary Clinton is there even a comparison, Pogo? What Trump said to another man 11 years ago in private about women was indefensible. I do not deny that in the least but why haven't you ever mentioned anything about Hillary Clinton cursing at Secret Service assigned to protect her? Why no mention of her cursing tirades at her own husband and staff dating back some thirty years, Pogo, and right in front of Chelsea Clinton when she was just a tiny tot? What kind of woman acts like that? What kind of woman does that in front of her own child? I'm not even getting into the Clinton death list of all those who were worked for them and then mysteriously died. I believe it is very clear that Hillary Clinton is an extremely evil woman. I do not believe that Donald Trump would kill someone in order to advance his political career. Do you?

 

[irosie91]

Satan's sin was pride and desiring to be like God and that is the very core of Wiccan theology and the New Age movement.

Actually it IS the very core of the orange freak in the White House. There's a "movement" for ya.

So essplain to the class Jeri, if you will....

How come you're against this imaginary "Satan" for sins of "pride and desiring to be like God" and yet support a provably real being that walks among us running his entire existence on the exact same traits?

I do not agree with everything that President Trump has done but when you compare his faults / sins with the faults and sins of Hillary Clinton is there even a comparison, Pogo? What Trump said to another man 11 years ago in private about women was indefensible. I do not deny that in the least but why haven't ever mentioned anything about Hillary Clinton cursing at Secret Service assigned to protect her? Why no mention of her cursing tirades at her own husband and staff dating back some thirty years, Pogo, and right in front of the Chelsea Clinton when she was just a tiny tot. What kind of woman acts like that? What kind of woman does that in front of her own child? I'm not even getting into the Clinton death list of all those who were worked for them and then mysteriously died. I believe it is very clear that Hillary Clinton is an extremely evil woman. I do not believe that Donald Trump would kill someone in order to advance his political career. Do you?

--------in front of little Chelsea? no wonder she needed a VILLAGE-----
she did not trust herself to keep her vulgar tongue in her mouth........
Poor Chelsea--------and that poor little rape victim.....