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You claim 'inevitable' but facts don't bear you out. Mammals ruled for 60 million years before intelligence evolved, dinos ruled for more than twice as long and only got as far as the crow. Evolution is all about survival of the gene, if intelligence enhances that survival it will endure, if it doesn't we're toast.But someone will be. Same for intelligence.My eyes say different. I have the potential to become the President of the USA but that doesn't mean it will happen.We are here because the potential for intelligence to exist existed before space and time itself.
Space and time were created from nothing and evolved until beings which know and create arose.
As for intelligence, the jury is still out on if it is a positive survival attribute or not.
It isn’t about survivability. Everything dies.
It is about the evolution of space and time and it’s undeniable evolution to ever increasing complexity.
Intelligence like life can not be contained. It’s development is inevitable according to the laws of nature.
So that God could experience the material world through us....Why did God create us and the world? I've been told it is to judge us for the next world. If that's the case there should be some logic and evidence of a design. If he has no such plan why create the universe, is he merely a zookeeper?Happiness and mourning are effects not causes. In and of themselves they are not logical. They are literally reactions. Certain experiences may logically lead to people experiencing those feelings. Then again since humans are involved it is possible that it is not necessarily always logical for them to experience those feelings. So this discussion isn’t about suffering it is about the causes of suffering. Specifically why you believe it is illogical for God (if he is good) to allow the cause of suffering to exist.What is the logic behind suffering or happiness? If there is an intelligence behind it there must be a logical reason. Agreed? Would you also agree that suffering is not evenly distributed, some, like me, get very little some get more than they can take. Is there a logic you'd like to share?How is suffering illogical? Is happiness illogical too?
You keep trying to make sense of suffering in a vacuum. Is suffering all you see?
You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Why have you not done a full accounting?
I’m not the one who is bringing up a plan. You are the one who keeps bringing it up. You were given an incredibly rare and wonderful gift. The question is what are you going to do with it. What’s your plan?
You make the case that suffering can be good and in some cases that is true. However, I see many cases where the good that comes from suffering doesn't seem to balance the pain it inflicts. There seems to be no logic or intelligence at work.
Let me flip this around. Why should it be logical for bad things to happen to good people if there is a good God? Because from where I sit the only way that can happen is if God controls every single thing which occurs. That to me is the definition of illogical. Can you tell me how God can can make it so that no bad things happen to anyone without controlling everything even you? So right off the bat I have just proven how stupid your argument is.
Which proposition is less illogical. Yours, God controlling everything? Or mine, good comes from bad. Even you will reject your argument if it means in believing God controlling everything. At least with my argument I can believe that we don’t have complete information. That God does. So it isn't possible for us to fully understand the logic and wisdom of existence. Of course that doesn't mean we have to be complete nincompoops about it. It seems to me that life is quite fair. As near as I can tell the argument that life isn’t fair is based upon errors and exceptions. We live in a logical universe where every effect has a cause. As a rule we control our own destiny. As such our behaviors and actions play a large part in the fruit we bear. To argue that this is not the rule is illogical. So to argue that life is not fair can only come after a thorough investigation of both sides. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Furthermore, the true comparison should be made for existing versus not existing. Is there anything in the universe that you are aware of that you would rather be? No. You have already won the cosmic lottery. So how can someone who has won the cosmic lottery dare complain that life isn’t fair.
You can’t possibly understand the good that can come from bad. You have never tried. The fact that you haven't even attempted to make a full accounting shows that you are incapable of understanding the information you have been given.
Where did you get your concept of good from? You can’t know a line is crooked unless you have an idea of what is straight. You can’t say that something is bad or unfair without first knowing what is good or fair. So there must be goodness and fairness in the world that it is being compared to. Right? So it seems to me that you believe right and wrong are universal. Why else would you make an argument that it is illogical for God to allow suffering, if you are not arguing that God’s actions are wrong and unfair. You have literally let the cat out of the bag that you believe there is such a thing as universal goodness and fairness.
All required steps for intelligence to emerge.You claim 'inevitable' but facts don't bear you out. Mammals ruled for 60 million years before intelligence evolved, dinos ruled for more than twice as long and only got as far as the crow. Evolution is all about survival of the gene, if intelligence enhances that survival it will endure, if it doesn't we're toast.But someone will be. Same for intelligence.My eyes say different. I have the potential to become the President of the USA but that doesn't mean it will happen.We are here because the potential for intelligence to exist existed before space and time itself.
Space and time were created from nothing and evolved until beings which know and create arose.
As for intelligence, the jury is still out on if it is a positive survival attribute or not.
It isn’t about survivability. Everything dies.
It is about the evolution of space and time and it’s undeniable evolution to ever increasing complexity.
Intelligence like life can not be contained. It’s development is inevitable according to the laws of nature.
Those are facts not wishful thinking.
What's that based on? God could create the universe but couldn't 'experience' it?So that God could experience the material world through us.
It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.What's that based on? God could create the universe but couldn't 'experience' it?So that God could experience the material world through us.
There is your wishful thinking again, wanting an 'intentional purpose' to existence. All I see is matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. I'm guessing you don't see anything different, you just can't accept it since we are the crown of creation and it was all done for us.It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.What's that based on? God could create the universe but couldn't 'experience' it?So that God could experience the material world through us.
I never said it was done for us. I said that using our experiences as creators as a proxy we know that the things we create are created for a reason to serve a purpose.There is your wishful thinking again, wanting an 'intentional purpose' to existence. All I see is matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. I'm guessing you don't see anything different, you just can't accept it since we are the crown of creation and it was all done for us.It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.What's that based on? God could create the universe but couldn't 'experience' it?So that God could experience the material world through us.
It isn’t wishful thinking to believe that the things we create are created for a reason to serve some purpose.There is your wishful thinking again, wanting an 'intentional purpose' to existence. All I see is matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. I'm guessing you don't see anything different, you just can't accept it since we are the crown of creation and it was all done for us.It should be obvious that if the material world were not created by spirit that everything that has unfolded in the evolution of space and time would have no intentional purpose. That it is just matter and energy doing what matter and energy do. Conversely, if the material world were created by spirit it should be obvious that the creation of the material world was intentional. After all in my perception of God, God is no thing and the closest thing I can relate to is a mind with no body. Using our own experiences as creators as a proxy, we know that when we create things we create them for a reason and that reason is to serve some purpose. So it would be no great leap of logic to believe that something like a mind with no body would do the same. We also know from our experiences that intelligence tends to create intelligence. We are obsessed with making smart things. So what better thing for a mind with no body to do than create a universe where beings with bodies can create smart things too.What's that based on? God could create the universe but couldn't 'experience' it?So that God could experience the material world through us.
It is wishful thinking that because we can create things to serve some purpose we were created by some supernatural something or other to serve some purpose. It is possible but there is no evidence for any of it.It isn’t wishful thinking to believe that the things we create are created for a reason to serve some purpose.
It is wishful thinking to believe they weren’t.
Cause and effect are logical.
No reason to believe any of that. We don't know matter and energy have ever been created, they may have always existed in various forms. Likewise the laws and rules may have always existed. Life obeys the rules of evolution. Were these rules created before life existed or did they always exist and life became subject to them when it came into existence?For matter and energy to do what matter and energy do there first needs to be laws and rules for matter and energy to follow.
Why not? Discussions are good.If that were the case you wouldn’t be here discussing something you don’t believe in.My life is already full and rewarding, yours must not be because you need something make believe to make it full and rewarding.Like I wrote before... If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.All you have is fartsmoke, with gusts up to wishful thinking.If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.I’m still waiting for your empirical evidence for god. You said you had some.
So it is your loss, not mine.
I haven't been punished by an invisible being.How have you been punished?But if you don't follow his commands, he punishes you. If it smells like a police state...No. I am arguing that God is the opposite of a police state. A police state would be a state that prevented you from violating it's laws. A real hands on state. God allows you to break them. A real hands off state.So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?Not any different in our society now. Are you arguing I don’t have a choice in breaking a law or not? Seems to me the evidence that we do is overwhelming.Having to choose something or get punished isn't free will.
God could have said that that's mo biggie also, but he wants to be a prick, so he punishes everyone, including those who had nothing to do with Adam and Eve. That's childish.Why didn't god simply say: so what if Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge? It's no biggie.So god makes it too hard not to sin so we then need to go kiss his ass for forgiveness. You're such a pussy.You know, I kinda thought that for a few years growing up, but have since figured it out. No, God didn't give us the 7 Noahide commandments of the 10 Commandments just so He could punish us for not following them, He gave them to us to help us grow and survive.
The first 3 commandments tell us to not disrespect God, not to take His name in vain, and to not have any other Gods besides Him. Why? Because He won't help you if you piss Him off by being disrespectful or praying to other Gods.
Thou shalt not murder. Why? If you murder someone, then one of the murdered person's loved ones may come after you for revenge and kill you.
Thou shalt not steal. Why? If you steal something from someone, they may want to kill you.
Thou shalt not bear false witness. Why? Telling the truth is crucial, and if you lie to your doctor about your symptoms, they might miss something and you die.
Honor thy mother and father. They are the ones that brought you here to this world and gave you life. Without them, you wouldn't exist.
Remember the sabbath day. Why? If you don't take some time off to relax and talk with God, you might get stressed and die from a heart attack.
Thou shalt not commit adultery. Why? If you have sex on the sly with someone else's SO, they may want to hunt you down and hurt or kill you.
Thou shalt not covet. Why? If you are jealous of what your neighbor has, you might be tempted to steal it, or possibly hurt them to get it, which is against 2 other commands.
The way I see it, the 10 Commandments are there to help us keep from messing things up and killing each other.
But, then again, I came around to that thought a few conversations with my roomie when we had been discussing the 613 mitzvoht that the Jews follow. Not every rule is for every Jewish person, because it covers everyone in the community, and what is required for a butcher isn't the same as what is required for a priest. The 613 mitzvoht according to the rabbi giving the lecture was so that the community as a whole would be functioning properly and running smooth.
The Ten Commandments are a summary of the 613 laws in the OT. What we realize is that we cannot perfectly follow it like Jesus. It means we end up as sinners and need to be saved by God's mercy and grace.
Haha. You kinda gone off the deep end Taz. You will always question God and think that he is the opposite of what he is. God is good. Satan is bad. Instead, you have up is down, and down is up. This is clear in all your posts even if they are in the form of questions and your claims of being agnostic. Shrug. What more can I say?
It doesn't make sense that god would create satan then I get accused of following satan. Like seriously, what the fuck do you know?
Maybe God WOULD have said it was no biggie if Adam and Eve had taken responsibility for their actions. But, Adam blamed Eve, and Eve blamed the Serpent, and nobody took responsibility for what they did.
The original sin wasn't that they ate from the tree, it was they didn't take responsibility for their actions.
So if god has no control over Lucifer, why would he have control over me?Why didn't god simply say: so what if Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge? It's no biggie.
It doesn't make sense that god would create satan then I get accused of following satan. Like seriously, what the fuck do you know?
Last part first. God didn't make Satan. He created Lucifer who became his best angel. God also gave him free will. So, we all know this ended up as God creating hell. Will you accept that? Hell came before us.
If I don't know anything, then why the fuck are you such an idiotard to continue asking questions of me and talking with me. You're the one who is agnostic, but thinks God is evil and doesn't recognize Satan. You do not give your opinions of him. Why can't you admit Satan tempted A&E to sin? Why can't you admit Satan shapes my attitudes towards God? Why can't you admit I don't care if I go to hell or not? Why can't you just say who gives a fuck if I go to hell and live in pain and suffering forever?
As for your first sentence, you do not understand that A&E ate the forbidden fruit and we became deceivers to God with a sin nature, i.e. we can't help but sin. It's in our heart to sin, so we are doomed to go to hell forever and ever.
The #1 over-the-counter medicine sold are pain relievers. The #1 prescription medicine prescribed are opioids for pain relief. This is evidence that we are paying the price for our sinful nature of being deceivers to God. That is your idea of no biggie.
The OT is filled with stories of the innocent being punished for the guilty. King David conducted a census that angered God so God sent a plague that killed tens of thousands of Israelites. Ironically King David was not one of those killed by the plague.So if god has no control over Lucifer, why would he have control over me?Why didn't god simply say: so what if Adam and Eve ate from the tree of knowledge? It's no biggie.
It doesn't make sense that god would create satan then I get accused of following satan. Like seriously, what the fuck do you know?
Last part first. God didn't make Satan. He created Lucifer who became his best angel. God also gave him free will. So, we all know this ended up as God creating hell. Will you accept that? Hell came before us.
If I don't know anything, then why the fuck are you such an idiotard to continue asking questions of me and talking with me. You're the one who is agnostic, but thinks God is evil and doesn't recognize Satan. You do not give your opinions of him. Why can't you admit Satan tempted A&E to sin? Why can't you admit Satan shapes my attitudes towards God? Why can't you admit I don't care if I go to hell or not? Why can't you just say who gives a fuck if I go to hell and live in pain and suffering forever?
As for your first sentence, you do not understand that A&E ate the forbidden fruit and we became deceivers to God with a sin nature, i.e. we can't help but sin. It's in our heart to sin, so we are doomed to go to hell forever and ever.
The #1 over-the-counter medicine sold are pain relievers. The #1 prescription medicine prescribed are opioids for pain relief. This is evidence that we are paying the price for our sinful nature of being deceivers to God. That is your idea of no biggie.
So if it's satan's fault that they ate the apple, why do we get punished? Why didn't god punish Lucifer?
We aren't deceivers of god, A & E were. But god wants to inflict pain on us anyways. WHAT A DOUCHEBAG!
Do you understand the concept of thermal equilibrium? It isn’t possible for matter and energy to exist forever ever without equilibrating. So we do know that matter and energy had a beginning and in fact there is an elegant equation which shows how it is possible.No reason to believe any of that. We don't know matter and energy have ever been created, they may have always existed in various forms. Likewise the laws and rules may have always existed. Life obeys the rules of evolution. Were these rules created before life existed or did they always exist and life became subject to them when it came into existence?For matter and energy to do what matter and energy do there first needs to be laws and rules for matter and energy to follow.
There you have it. No police state.I haven't been punished by an invisible being.How have you been punished?But if you don't follow his commands, he punishes you. If it smells like a police state...No. I am arguing that God is the opposite of a police state. A police state would be a state that prevented you from violating it's laws. A real hands on state. God allows you to break them. A real hands off state.So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?Not any different in our society now. Are you arguing I don’t have a choice in breaking a law or not? Seems to me the evidence that we do is overwhelming.
No. It’s called a proxy. Science uses them all the time.It is wishful thinking that because we can create things to serve some purpose we were created by some supernatural something or other to serve some purpose. It is possible but there is no evidence for any of it.It isn’t wishful thinking to believe that the things we create are created for a reason to serve some purpose.
It is wishful thinking to believe they weren’t.
Cause and effect are logical.
Yes, they are. But that’s not your motivation and it is your motivation which reveals that your life is lacking.Why not? Discussions are good.If that were the case you wouldn’t be here discussing something you don’t believe in.My life is already full and rewarding, yours must not be because you need something make believe to make it full and rewarding.Like I wrote before... If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.All you have is fartsmoke, with gusts up to wishful thinking.If you cared about living a full and rewarding life and your children leading a full and rewarding life, you’d go out and find it yourself. It’s there. I’ve shown it to you plenty of times.
So it is your loss, not mine.
You still think an invisible being will punish me/is punishing me, don't you?There you have it. No police state.I haven't been punished by an invisible being.How have you been punished?But if you don't follow his commands, he punishes you. If it smells like a police state...No. I am arguing that God is the opposite of a police state. A police state would be a state that prevented you from violating it's laws. A real hands on state. God allows you to break them. A real hands off state.So you’re saying that god is like a police state. God’s watching what we do to punish us if we step out of line?
