On the topic of ethics: Gay television

[musicman]

Would you be so kind to explain that point?

EDIT: I meant the second part of your statement.

History amounts to little more than replay after tiresome replay of the same theme:

Great civilizations are built through tireless effort, sacrifice, and adherence to guiding principles. They prosper for a time, but, inevitably, the beneficiaries - the latter generations - grow fat, lazy, stupid, and bored. Thanks to the efforts of their forefathers, their lives are essentially devoid of the hardship which helped to forge the principles upon which their civilization was founded. The decline and fall of said civilization is now only a matter of time and circumstance. An absolutely reliable sign of it's imminent demise is the decline of morals.

Very few people alive in America today remember anything that could remotely be called "hard times". We now have the time, and the inclination, to ask questions like, "Can anyone prove the existence of objective morality?", or, "Who am I to tell two men who love each other that they can't get married?" The legitimization of homosexuality is symptomatic of a society gone soft, lazy, and stupid. No civilization in history has reached this state and survived.

 

[007]

Can you tell me how homosexuality is deviant, dangerous, and immoral?

Hooooold on there skippy... it is NOT for those who adhere to "NATURE", and sexual practices as they were "meant to be", to explain to you butt worshipping queer supporters about anything. On the contrary flower boy, it is entirely up to YOU to explain to US why you think it is NOT "deviant, dangerous, and immoral".

Now, start explaining. The burden is your's. You're the one fighting nature, and the moral fabric of mankind.

 

[Bullypulpit]

Seeing that the homosexual population is around 1-2%, I can't see how this network would survive.

Getting your stats from Newsmax again...? While Alfred Kinsey's statistics were based on flawed methodology and non-random samples, the percentage of the population varies between 3% and 6% depending upon the survey one looks at.

Until same-gender couples attain the same level of acceptance of different-gender couples, we will never know for certain.

 

[MrMarbles]

History amounts to little more than replay after tiresome replay of the same theme:

Great civilizations are built through tireless effort, sacrifice, and adherence to guiding principles. They prosper for a time, but, inevitably, the beneficiaries - the latter generations - grow fat, lazy, stupid, and bored. Thanks to the efforts of their forefathers, their lives are essentially devoid of the hardship which helped to forge the principles upon which their civilization was founded. The decline and fall of said civilization is now only a matter of time and circumstance. An absolutely reliable sign of it's imminent demise is the decline of morals.

Very few people alive in America today remember anything that could remotely be called "hard times". We now have the time, and the inclination, to ask questions like, "Can anyone prove the existence of objective morality?", or, "Who am I to tell two men who love each other that they can't get married?" The legitimization of homosexuality is symptomatic of a society gone soft, lazy, and stupid. No civilization in history has reached this state and survived.

It's through not having to work all the time, and being able to stop and think, that human kind as evolved, and expanded. Homosexuality, not natural? No, it happens in nature all the time. Why? I don't know. But it happens. If it didn't, there would be no such thing.

 

[musicman]

It's through not having to work all the time, and being able to stop and think, that human kind as evolved, and expanded. Homosexuality, not natural? No, it happens in nature all the time. Why? I don't know. But it happens. If it didn't, there would be no such thing.

You're helping me make my point. We haven't learned a f***ing thing from history. Our arrogance dooms us. We are so enlightened - so evolved - so ripe for the taking.

 

[Isaac Brock]

History amounts to little more than replay after tiresome replay of the same theme:

Great civilizations are built through tireless effort, sacrifice, and adherence to guiding principles. They prosper for a time, but, inevitably, the beneficiaries - the latter generations - grow fat, lazy, stupid, and bored. Thanks to the efforts of their forefathers, their lives are essentially devoid of the hardship which helped to forge the principles upon which their civilization was founded. The decline and fall of said civilization is now only a matter of time and circumstance. An absolutely reliable sign of it's imminent demise is the decline of morals.

Very few people alive in America today remember anything that could remotely be called "hard times". We now have the time, and the inclination, to ask questions like, "Can anyone prove the existence of objective morality?", or, "Who am I to tell two men who love each other that they can't get married?" The legitimization of homosexuality is symptomatic of a society gone soft, lazy, and stupid. No civilization in history has reached this state and survived.

I do not agree. Civilizations have and will fall for many reasons, the more common are:
A) They are inflexible to social change and revolt from within (ie Hapsburg Dyanasty, Russian Imperial System, Timurid)
B) External powers exploit inherint weaknesses on either the structure or stability of a civilized power and replace it (ie Roman, Ottoman, Spanish, Byzantine).
C) Environmental factors either random or human made cause the disintegration of the required economic base (ie Khmer).
D) Growth is too rapid and a civilized power neglects to consolidate its power and develop necessary infractructure (ie Roman, British, Mongol/Golden Horde).

I cannot remember one civilization, save Biblical Sodom and Gomorrah, that have failed solely because their social values have become too liberalized. While I agree that civilizations fall due to complacency, I don't believe it is solely caused by evolution of social values.

 

[musicman]

I cannot remember one civilization, save Biblical Sodom and Gomorrah, that have failed solely because their social values have become too liberalized. While I agree that civilizations fall due to complacency, I don't believe it is solely caused by evolution of social values.

"...evolution of social values"? Let's not prettify it. This isn't the Democratic National Convention, for God's sake. Let's call it what it is: the CORRUPTION of social values. And the point I'm trying to make is that the corruption of social values (or - dare we say it - morals) is symptomatic of a civilization on the brink of collapse. It is the "canary in the coal mine".

The fact that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was recounted in the Bible does not diminish it's historical significance. The mighty Roman Empire had degenerated into the ancient equivalent of a welfare state. Athenians thought themselves morally superior to Spartans, because they practiced homosexuality of a more "civilized" nature. No great civilization has ever withstood the abandonment of it's moral principles.

The most savage conflict in which your neighbor to the south is embroiled is being fought within her own borders. America's soul hangs in the balance.

 

[MrMarbles]

"...evolution of social values"? Let's not prettify it. This isn't the Democratic National Convention, for God's sake. Let's call it what it is: the CORRUPTION of social values. And the point I'm trying to make is that the corruption of social values (or - dare we say it - morals) is symptomatic of a civilization on the brink of collapse. It is the "canary in the coal mine".

The fact that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was recounted in the Bible does not diminish it's historical significance. The mighty Roman Empire had degenerated into the ancient equivalent of a welfare state. Athenians thought themselves morally superior to Spartans, because they practiced homosexuality of a more "civilized" nature. No great civilization has ever withstood the abandonment of it's moral principles.

The most savage conflict in which your neighbor to the south is embroiled is being fought within her own borders. America's soul hangs in the balance.

Holy cow, settle down. If this were the sixties, you would be saying the same thing about civil rights. The used the same arguements for that as well, and America is still alive and kicking.

 

[musicman]

Holy cow, settle down. If this were the sixties, you would be saying the same thing about civil rights. The used the same arguements for that as well, and America is still alive and kicking.

Excuse me, sir, but you have no right to say that about me. You don't know me, you don't know anything about me, and I find it unconscionable that you would attempt to tar me with the "racist" brush on the strength of nothing but my conservative views. Quite frankly, I think an apology is in order.

 

[DKSuddeth]

Excuse me, sir, but you have no right to say that about me. You don't know me, you don't know anything about me, and I find it unconscionable that you would attempt to tar me with the "racist" brush on the strength of nothing but my conservative views. Quite frankly, I think an apology is in order.

I don't think MrMarbles was saying YOU SPECIFICALLY about civil rights, rather that your arguments are pretty much the same in reference.

 

[musicman]

I trust your judgement, DK. I mean, I read, "YOU would have said the same thing...", but I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt.

 

[freeandfun1]

Holy cow, settle down. If this were the sixties, you would be saying the same thing about civil rights. The used the same arguements for that as well, and America is still alive and kicking.

Mr. Marbles, one question.

Which party was the STONGEST supporter of the Civil Rights Ammendment?

 

[musicman]

Mr. Marbles, one question.

Which party was the STONGEST supporter of the Civil Rights Ammendment?

I'll add to that. Which party seeks to keep African-Americans down, as a perpetually dependent, beholden-to-big-Daddy-government constituency, and which is showing them the path to true self-determination?

 

[MrMarbles]

Mr. Marbles, one question.

Which party was the STONGEST supporter of the Civil Rights Ammendment?

Republican. But that was forty years ago, things have certainly changed since then. As for now, there dosen't seem much in common with todays repub. and yesterdays. In fact a lot has changed in american politics over forty years.

Anyway, i'm Canadian, and i support the equal rights of all people.

 

[freeandfun1]

Republican. But that was forty years ago, things have certainly changed since then. As for now, there dosen't seem much in common with todays repub. and yesterdays. In fact a lot has changed in american politics over forty years.

Anyway, i'm Canadian, and i support the equal rights of all people.

What has changed? KKK Bird is still a democrat. The only thing that has changed is that HE no longer wears his hood in public.

 

[musicman]

Republican. But that was forty years ago, things have certainly changed since then. As for now, there dosen't seem much in common with todays repub. and yesterdays.

If you can find a transcript, or, better yet, a film clip, of Ronald Reagan's address to the 1964 Republican Convention, you'll hear the beating heart of today's Republican party.

Anyway, i'm Canadian, and i support the equal rights of all people.

That sounds nice. What, exactly does it mean? There are those who think the Declaration of Independence should have read, "...that among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, the right to an education, the right to a good job in the field of your choice, the right to health care, the right not to endure an element of risk, the right not to have your feelings hurt....".

The difference between Republicans and Democrats is that Republicans aren't lying. They'll tell you, flat-out, that freedom is a partnership, and you've got to hold up your end. You've got to get up off your ass and work. You've got to conduct yourself as a civil member of society. You've got to be responsible. And you've got to realize that the community is made up of individuals - individuals who ALL have rights - rights that shouldn't be usurped by a strident, hateful minority who seek to inflict their perversion and misery on society as a whole.

 

[Isaac Brock]

"...evolution of social values"? Let's not prettify it. This isn't the Democratic National Convention, for God's sake. Let's call it what it is: the CORRUPTION of social values. And the point I'm trying to make is that the corruption of social values (or - dare we say it - morals) is symptomatic of a civilization on the brink of collapse. It is the "canary in the coal mine".

I shall not. Morals change over time. That is a fact. One man's corruption of morals in indeed another's liberation. Consider incest used to promoted, vegence killings used to legal, women in bathing suits used to be immoral, interracial/interfaith marriage was considered abhortent, slavery used to be considered normal. The list goes on... there was always resistance to change, but indeed they changed.

The fact that the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah was recounted in the Bible does not diminish it's historical significance. The mighty Roman Empire had degenerated into the ancient equivalent of a welfare state. Athenians thought themselves morally superior to Spartans, because they practiced homosexuality of a more "civilized" nature. No great civilization has ever withstood the abandonment of it's moral principles.

I cannot comment on Soddom and Gomorrah because they are not civilizations commonly referenced in history texts beyond the Bible, though I have little doubt that it does refer to some Hittite-like city state.

Let it be clear that there was no welfare state in Rome during that era. Quite the opposite. It's support of its far reaching jingoistic territories and military machine, crippled the economic base of the empire. The roman empire also attempted to integrate barbarian territories (Vandals and Visogoths to name a few) into its empire. When the empire began to withdraw its outward military positions, these territories revolted and their people invaded roman lands. In addition, the adoptation of the Christian church church decentralized many traditional insitutions of the emperor and placed them at the hands of the church. Any surplus money was hoarded by the emporer and his entourage. A lack of currency for goods ensued and a massive trade deficit ensued, crippling flow of goods.

The Pelleponsesean war did not start because of a "decay" in morals. It happened because both Athens and Sparta competed for trade and rule of Greece. That is unless the rise of Power and Wealth are considered moral decay of which is suppose most nations are guilty of. Sparta having a larger army and support from the Persians had the surrender of Athens.

The most savage conflict in which your neighbor to the south is embroiled is being fought within her own borders. America's soul hangs in the balance.

Perhaps, but conflicts end, to the victors go the spoils and the world continues on. The question of homosexuality in our historical context will be nothing more than a period question and a grain of sand in the expanse of history.

 

[MrMarbles]

That sounds nice. What, exactly does it mean? There are those who think the Declaration of Independence should have read, "...that among these are life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness, the right to an education, the right to a good job in the field of your choice, the right to health care, the right not to endure an element of risk, the right not to have your feelings hurt....".

Exactly. Why not strive towards utopia. Don't lie about where we are, and don't lie about where we want to go. Utopia is impossible to obtain, but why not try, it's better then sitting on your ass letting the world go to hell in a hand basket.

As for gay culture in the media, get used to it. Until it becomes so main stream that it becomes over abundant and un-trendy, you will only see it increase.

 

[freeandfun1]

Until it becomes so main stream that it becomes over abundant and un-trendy, you will only see it increase.

In a way, I agree with you.

 

[musicman]

Isaac: "Let it be clear that there was no welfare state in Rome during that era".

If you don't call free bread and free entertainment the ancient equivalent of a welfare state, I don't know what is. You've done an excellent job of detailing other causitive factors in the decline of both Roman and Greek civilizations. However, you've said nothing that would make me back off my original statements. Great civilizations are built through hard work,sacrifice, and strict adherence to a set of guiding principles. Invariably, though, this initial success gives way to laziness, stupidity, arrogance, and laxity in later generations. It then becomes a doomed civilization, and the surest sign that the end is near is the abandonment of the guiding moral principles upon which the once-strong society was founded.

"The question of homosexuality in our historical context will be nothing more than a period question and a grain of sand in the expanse of history".

Sez you. Sorry - I couldn't resist that. Seriously, though, since you and I will be long dead by that time, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.