Obama to Announce Car Mileage Plan

[Hillbilly]

Hey Dude,

they sold the suv's just fine, they didn't sell much of anything else because they did NOT have what the customer wanted...you can't make a business work with only one item that is selling and the rest just sitting there....while the japanese/Korean cars were being snatched up due to their quality and gas milelage....

They did not do their jobs in reading the MARKET Place, they were too busy patting eachother on the back when their one big ticket item sold....

they did THIS to themselves, and to us....

You're nuckin futs!!!!!

CAFE means Corporate Average Fuel Economy.....In order for car companies to make the behemoths that they did, they also had to make little econoshitboxes, which they had to take a loss on to sell the cars people wanted......I guess you've forgotten little hunks of crap like the Geo.

Also. the consumer has ha plenty of choice in the market for the smaller cars you claim are all the rage....Toyota, Kia, Hundai, Honda, Subaru.....

And, just to set the record straight here, I drive a Subaru Outback.

The only time that sales of the monster SUV took a dump was when gas hit $4.00 a gallon. Let's not also forget that he foreign manufacturers , like Toyota, have also taken a big hit in sales.

you are obviously very young! (not that there is anything wrong with this)

the American car companies since carter, have DONE THIS TO THEMSELVES....there was no kia. honda, mitzubishi, hyundai ////just a tad of toyota and datson who is now nissan i believe....

all foreign car makers jumped on fuel efficient cars during the oil embargo in the 70's....and on average get 20 miles to the gallon over usa fleets now....

since 2001 oil/gas prices have risen with monthly double digit increases....but the american companies sat back and DID VIRTUALLY NOTHING....because their SUV's had alot of profit in each of them....so they chose the EASY ROUTE, EASY MONEY instead of reading the writing on the wall...while still producing cars, no one wanted.

SUV's have NEVER been held to the CAFE standards of cars, they were considered small trucks....

care

You are nucking futs. lol Ok, let's explore your claim that foreign cars get 20 mpg more than U.S. cars. Are you comparing F-350 crew cab duallies with toyota camrys or what?
Ford Ranger= EPA Fuel Economy: City: 14 – 21 Highway: 18 – 26
Nissan Frontier= EPA Fuel Economy: City: 15 – 19 Highway: 19 – 23

Are you some kind of conspiracy theorist who believes that a gallon of gasoline actually has unlimited energy and that the only reason cars don't get 1,000 mpg is because of the oil companies? One gallon of gasoline only has the power to move a car so far. If a motorcycle only gets 80 mpg, a car will never do better. Frankly, I'm amazed that you can move a 4500 pound object 25 miles with one gallon of anything. That is really something else.

 

[Oddball]

Midnight brings up a good question. Would we be better off getting our oil from Chavez than the Saudis?

This is why I call for "Country of Origin" labels on the gas pumps. Let us vote with our dollars and allow us the freedom to choose what countries to give our money to. I like US, Canadian and Mexican oil, and appreciate the EU's production which is ninth in the world. We should help support the fledgling government of Iraq, by buying gas made from that oil too.

Gas made from Saudi, Chinese, Russian, Iranian, and Venezuela oil would obviously be lesser choices. But we would HAVE a choice. And could exercise it.

Very nice thought in theory, that practice squashes the hell out of.

All the incoming oil -no matter its source- goes to the refineries where it's all mixed together, and in turn, into pipelines and trucks ....It's not even branded until it hits the given distributor, where the various and sundry additives are introduced.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Very nice thought in theory, that practice squashes the hell out of.

All the incoming oil -no matter its source- goes to the refineries where it's all mixed together, and in turn, into pipelines and trucks ....It's not even branded until it hits the given distributor, where the various and sundry additives are introduced.

Yes, I know all about oil having worked in the industry for a number of years. Food supplies faced alot of the same type problems, but we DID get country of origin labels for those. It's all about changing industry practices.

The REAL reason we'd never get COO labels at the gas pumps is, it would actually WORK and we would actually greatly reduce consumption of enemy oil. And that's the LAST thing the government really wants to do.

 

[Care4all]

what i am saying is that it was poor business practices, acumen and insight of the American car makers that got them in to the mess they are in today, not the cafe standards put in to place after the oil embargo....japanese cars were made superior to the American cars, with better gas mileage than the similar american cars....without even paying attention to usa cafe standards, they BEAT THEM and THEY WERE STILL PROFITABLE....what stopped usa makers from using our superior intellect, don't take no for an answer, defying all odds ingenuity to create more fuel efficient cars that we wanted to buy? poor management.

i had never thought of them being in cahoots with the oil companies, but i wouldn't put it past them...

 

[Oddball]

Individual food items can be labeled.

How much do you think it would cost to segregate out the different oil suppliers, and do you think enough consumers are politically aware enough that they would be willing to pay those costs without bitching about eeeeevillll BigOil "gouging" them??

 

[auditor0007]

NOTE! haven't read the whole thread...

but I thought I read very recently that asian cars will be averaging 45 miles to the gallon....how do they do it and stay monetarily competitive with others?

We have cars that get 40-45. What you're missing is, the free market, not government control, dictates what sells. Higher mileage standards have never produced the "intended" result, it's always worked in the opposite. MORE driving happens, and MORE fuel usage.

The actual intent is, control.

the supposed free market...DICKED US mm. or those in the American car industry did...

they DIDN'T follow what the market wanted...THIS IS WHY they are in so much trouble in the market place now..... I guess, the free market doesn't always work, when you have short sited dipshits running these companies that only cared about immediate money in hand without anticipating the future of their companies and what the consumer actually wanted....millions of foreign cars would not be having a hayday being sold here IF THE AMERICAN auto makers gave us, proportionately, what we wanted....

care

The real problem is that gas prices skyrocketed overnight, at least in terms of the auto industry. The car companies were making cars that people wanted. People wanted big SUV's and big trucks, and they were selling very well. Then gas prices more than doubled within two years. We can blame the car companies for not having a little bit of foresight, but outside of that, I can't really blame them.

The fact is that if they had offered us more small cars a few years ago, no one would have bought them. Now, because of other problems in the economy, no one is buying any kind of car, big or small. Has there been mismanagement? Yes, that is obvious. But people need to realize that it takes a number of years to bring a new vehicle from concept to the dealer lots.

While I'm not crazy about bailing these companies out, I do believe it is in our best interest to keep them alive. However, I think there should be some major changes. First of all, I think that GM should be broken up. While each individual company within GM could be run on its own, they could still be permitted to use shared resources. The idea being that if one division failed miserably, it wouldn't bring down the entire company. Also, union contracts would have to be determined for each company.

Long term, car companies are going to sell a lot more cars. Within a couple of years, people will be forced into buying again as their current vehicles age, and they are aging because right now, very few are buying. At the same time, our population is predicted to continue rising for quite some time. This will bring new buyers to the market and it will increase sales. So the long term viability of these companies is still there, but we need to get them through this current mess, and some changes must be made as far as the way these companies set up their pension funds.

 

[Care4all]

Very nice thought in theory, that practice squashes the hell out of.

All the incoming oil -no matter its source- goes to the refineries where it's all mixed together, and in turn, into pipelines and trucks ....It's not even branded until it hits the given distributor, where the various and sundry additives are introduced.

Yes, I know all about oil having worked in the industry for a number of years. Food supplies faced alot of the same type problems, but we DID get country of origin labels for those. It's all about changing industry practices.

The REAL reason we'd never get COO labels at the gas pumps is, it would actually WORK and we would actually greatly reduce consumption of enemy oil. And that's the LAST thing the government really wants to do.

BUT WHY? WHAT is in this for the government?

 

[Care4all]

We have cars that get 40-45. What you're missing is, the free market, not government control, dictates what sells. Higher mileage standards have never produced the "intended" result, it's always worked in the opposite. MORE driving happens, and MORE fuel usage.

The actual intent is, control.

the supposed free market...DICKED US mm. or those in the American car industry did...

they DIDN'T follow what the market wanted...THIS IS WHY they are in so much trouble in the market place now..... I guess, the free market doesn't always work, when you have short sited dipshits running these companies that only cared about immediate money in hand without anticipating the future of their companies and what the consumer actually wanted....millions of foreign cars would not be having a hayday being sold here IF THE AMERICAN auto makers gave us, proportionately, what we wanted....

care

The real problem is that gas prices skyrocketed overnight, at least in terms of the auto industry. The car companies were making cars that people wanted. People wanted big SUV's and big trucks, and they were selling very well. Then gas prices more than doubled within two years. We can blame the car companies for not having a little bit of foresight, but outside of that, I can't really blame them.

The fact is that if they had offered us more small cars a few years ago, no one would have bought them. Now, because of other problems in the economy, no one is buying any kind of car, big or small. Has there been mismanagement? Yes, that is obvious. But people need to realize that it takes a number of years to bring a new vehicle from concept to the dealer lots.

While I'm not crazy about bailing these companies out, I do believe it is in our best interest to keep them alive. However, I think there should be some major changes. First of all, I think that GM should be broken up. While each individual company within GM could be run on its own, they could still be permitted to use shared resources. The idea being that if one division failed miserably, it wouldn't bring down the entire company. Also, union contracts would have to be determined for each company.

Long term, car companies are going to sell a lot more cars. Within a couple of years, people will be forced into buying again as their current vehicles age, and they are aging because right now, very few are buying. At the same time, our population is predicted to continue rising for quite some time. This will bring new buyers to the market and it will increase sales. So the long term viability of these companies is still there, but we need to get them through this current mess, and some changes must be made as far as the way these companies set up their pension funds.

it was 8 years of continual double digit rise in gas prices, 8 years of it auditor....this was not as sudden as you say....?

 

[Hillbilly]

what i am saying is that it was poor business practices, acumen and insight of the American car makers that got them in to the mess they are in today, not the cafe standards put in to place after the oil embargo....japanese cars were made superior to the American cars, with better gas mileage than the similar american cars....without even paying attention to usa cafe standards, they BEAT THEM and THEY WERE STILL PROFITABLE....what stopped usa makers from using our superior intellect, don't take no for an answer, defying all odds ingenuity to create more fuel efficient cars that we wanted to buy? poor management.

i had never thought of them being in cahoots with the oil companies, but i wouldn't put it past them...

Technological advances explain most of the difference in efficiency between 70's cars and today's cars. Between different cars at any given time, the primary difference has always been weight. The Japanese cars got better mileage than the big GM cars because they weighed half as much. That's how we'll get the cars to 40 mpg too. They'll be 1200 pounds or less and be really small. I think weight also explains, at least for the most part, why they last longer. A bigger, heavier car takes more abuse than a light one.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Individual food items can be labeled.

How much do you think it would cost to segregate out the different oil suppliers, and do you think enough consumers are politically aware enough that they would be willing to pay those costs without bitching about eeeeevillll BigOil "gouging" them??

In 1990 we had three formulas for regular unleaded gasoline. Today, we have 55. The massive undertaking accomplishing this towers over what it would take to separate crude by country at the beginning of the process.

And if the pumps had a big "Buy American" label showing COO, there wouldn't be much need for political awareness. Folks could just choose to buy it or not.

Yes, prices would be steeper for awhile, but really isn't that a long-term goal of the environazis anyway? It was one of the hallmarks of Gore's "Earth in the Balance" book, but he wants to artificially inflate the price with taxation and punitive regulation, instead of the free market solution I'm talking.

I don't mind $6/gallon gasoline if it means we're strangling our enemies. I DO mind it if it means massive taxation. What did Clinton/Gore do, first thing, when they took office? Imposed the federal gasoline tax that's still there today, what is it? 18 cents a gallon? Then they immediately set out to have the 55 different formulas with their re-vamp of the "Clean Air Act" which is a boondoggle and doesn't work at all. The reason is, it was about command, control and punishment instead of addressing the stated goals and objectives.

Just like this latest garbage is.

 

[cunclusion]

Actually you are the cuckoo one, if you dont realize it that makes alot of sense. As long as you and others dont want to change we fall behind even China is figuring out it cant survive and grow based on how we developed into the country we are today. Only the ones who adapt survive right.

You don't know jack shit about me, so spare the sweeping generalization.

What you're saying makes ZERO sense, as you (as do all other closet authoritarian do-gooders) have overlooked the free will of the consumer. We're not just all bunch of meat puppets who grab whatever GM or Ford throw out in their showrooms.

There's a reason big-assed cars fly out of the dealerships....People want to buy them.

If Americans all really want little econoshitboxes, then why did companies like Toyota start building pickup trucks to compete with Ford F-Series and Dodge Rams??

BTW....I guess that you also didn't know that the most popular car in China is.....BUICK!

That is fine but what I am saying is that what would the problem be if the truck you had got better gas mileage. We have cars in this country that are midsized that get above 30 yeah i see that the top vehicle in China right now is Buick but with the way that government runs things how long you think Buick will be number one. They are actually raising their fuel standards higher and faster than ours. Things still must change anyway the reason big cars fly off dealership lots is called short term thinking later they will fall into the same problem as people did when gas went up before.

Like when I was overseas I use to talk to the military police about the security at the gate, something bad happens the alert level went up, but because someone who lives off post coming on and has some clout complains, they lower the level and that could be less than a week later. Alot of people have said we Americans think too short term we used to be about the long term goal, building slowly but surely, not fast without understanding the problems that come with it.

If this makes no sense to you then be happy if i registers even a little good that means there is still hope .

 

[Hillbilly]

That is fine but what I am saying is that what would the problem be if the truck you had got better gas mileage. We have cars in this country that are midsized that get above 30 yeah i see that the top vehicle in China right now is Buick but with the way that government runs things how long you think Buick will be number one. They are actually raising their fuel standards higher and faster than ours. Things still must change anyway the reason big cars fly off dealership lots is called short term thinking later they will fall into the same problem as people did when gas went up before.

What evidence do you have that American car manufacturers intentionally lower the fuel efficiency of the vehicles they produce? How can you just wave your magic government wand and make cars get better gas mileage?

 

[Midnight Marauder]

How can you just wave your magic government wand and make cars get better gas mileage?

Because The Obama can change the laws of thermodynamics, silly!

 

[auditor0007]

Individual food items can be labeled.

How much do you think it would cost to segregate out the different oil suppliers, and do you think enough consumers are politically aware enough that they would be willing to pay those costs without bitching about eeeeevillll BigOil "gouging" them??

It would cost a fortune to refine the oil from each country separately. That idea makes zero sense.

 

[Oddball]

That is fine but what I am saying is that what would the problem be if the truck you had got better gas mileage.

Nothing, as long as market forces brought that truck into existence, rather than coercion.

And efficiency isn't always measured in mpg....30 years ago, getting 1 horsepower per CID was a big deal...Now we have cars running around getting 30mpg and getting 1.5 to 2 hp per CID.

Things still must change anyway the reason big cars fly off dealership lots is called short term thinking later they will fall into the same problem as people did when gas went up before.

Fuel costs aren't and weren't the only thing that hurts auto manufacturers....In the 70s, the oil embargo hit at just about the same time CAFE standards went into full swing....People chose the Toyotas over the crappy Pintos and Vegas that were forced into the marketplace.

Like when I was overseas I use to talk to the military police about the security at the gate, something bad happens the alert level went up, but because someone who lives off post coming on and has some clout complains, they lower the level and that could be less than a week later. Alot of people have said we Americans think too short term we used to be about the long term goal, building slowly but surely, not fast without understanding the problems that come with it..

Have to watch that sweeping generalization....Some are short-sighted, some are not. The companies that take the longer view survive, while those that don't do not....Provided, that is, unless they get bailed out.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

Individual food items can be labeled.

How much do you think it would cost to segregate out the different oil suppliers, and do you think enough consumers are politically aware enough that they would be willing to pay those costs without bitching about eeeeevillll BigOil "gouging" them??

It would cost a fortune to refine the oil from each country separately. That idea makes zero sense.

No, it really wouldn't. The fortune was spent, creating and separately storing and separately shipping and transporting the 55 different formulas for regular unleaded gasoline the environazis mandated in 1993.

COO is a drop in the bucket compared to that.

http://www.usmessageboard.com/1227269-post70.html

 

[KittenKoder]

Laws forcing any business to use certain standards like this are just plain stupid, they move the largest amount of sales to only a few companies while also forcing people to stop thinking for themselves. Then, in this thread alone, there are many more reasons why such standards are idiotic. I like thinking for myself, and hate the government more each year because of this kind of shit. Also, all this "green" crap is bullshit.

 

[Oddball]

No, it really wouldn't. The fortune was spent, creating and separately storing and separately shipping and transporting the 55 different formulas for regular unleaded gasoline the environazis mandated in 1993.

M'kay....I can follow that.

But we'd then have to drop the mandates for 31 flavors of gasoline....Which seems unlikely at best.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

No, it really wouldn't. The fortune was spent, creating and separately storing and separately shipping and transporting the 55 different formulas for regular unleaded gasoline the environazis mandated in 1993.

M'kay....I can follow that.

But we'd then have to drop the mandates for 31 flavors of gasoline...

Not at all. That infrastructure is already in place and the manufacturers have that system down pat now. It wouldn't take them near as long nor cost near as much to make changes on the other end, the beginning of the process, when the crude arrives...

But that's the thing see, no one gripes about the cost if something's being done to "save the planet" but they raise all holy hell when something's proposed to empower the consumer!

 

[auditor0007]

the supposed free market...DICKED US mm. or those in the American car industry did...

they DIDN'T follow what the market wanted...THIS IS WHY they are in so much trouble in the market place now..... I guess, the free market doesn't always work, when you have short sited dipshits running these companies that only cared about immediate money in hand without anticipating the future of their companies and what the consumer actually wanted....millions of foreign cars would not be having a hayday being sold here IF THE AMERICAN auto makers gave us, proportionately, what we wanted....

care

The real problem is that gas prices skyrocketed overnight, at least in terms of the auto industry. The car companies were making cars that people wanted. People wanted big SUV's and big trucks, and they were selling very well. Then gas prices more than doubled within two years. We can blame the car companies for not having a little bit of foresight, but outside of that, I can't really blame them.

The fact is that if they had offered us more small cars a few years ago, no one would have bought them. Now, because of other problems in the economy, no one is buying any kind of car, big or small. Has there been mismanagement? Yes, that is obvious. But people need to realize that it takes a number of years to bring a new vehicle from concept to the dealer lots.

While I'm not crazy about bailing these companies out, I do believe it is in our best interest to keep them alive. However, I think there should be some major changes. First of all, I think that GM should be broken up. While each individual company within GM could be run on its own, they could still be permitted to use shared resources. The idea being that if one division failed miserably, it wouldn't bring down the entire company. Also, union contracts would have to be determined for each company.

Long term, car companies are going to sell a lot more cars. Within a couple of years, people will be forced into buying again as their current vehicles age, and they are aging because right now, very few are buying. At the same time, our population is predicted to continue rising for quite some time. This will bring new buyers to the market and it will increase sales. So the long term viability of these companies is still there, but we need to get them through this current mess, and some changes must be made as far as the way these companies set up their pension funds.

it was 8 years of continual double digit rise in gas prices, 8 years of it auditor....this was not as sudden as you say....?

Actually, it was six years, beginning in 2002. However, the first few years of increases were not a big issue, because we were still well below the inflation adjusted price for gasoline going all the way back to the 50's. The rising gas prices were not a real detriment until we went over $3.00 per gallon and then finally, over $4.00 per gallon.

You have to remember, at one point around 1999, gas was under $1.00 per gallon, which was well below the nominal inflation adjusted price for gasoline. Based on today's dollars, gasoline has normally sold for around $2.25 to $2.50 per gallon.

Inflation adjusted Gasoline Price Chart