Nuclear meltdown in Japan reactor?

[skeptic]

http://www.hanfordchallenge.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Hot-Milk-article.pdf

Hanford Site - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[martybegan]

It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.

My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment.

Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.

I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.

 

[dilloduck]

It was mildly amusing. But it sure doesn't help make a case to build any more reactors.

And the first car accident should have shown us that we shouldn't build anymore cars ?
damn Ravi----can you possibly find a more extreme argument ?

dillo, no offense, but your hyperbole is retarded.

you can't say ret*rded

 

[skeptic]

It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.

My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment.

Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.

I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.

I am not a nuclear fissioncist. But I am reading that the risk of a total meltdown and containment vessel breach is real and may occur within hours if last ditch efforts to flood the broken reactor building are not successful. Apparently there is no hope of stopping the reaction, or runaway reaction, except to flood the entire building since most of the equipment was irreparably damaged in last night's explosion.

 

[Annie]

It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.

My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment.

Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.

I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.

I am not a nuclear fissioncist. But I am reading that the risk of a total meltdown and containment vessel breach is real and may occur within hours if last ditch efforts to flood the broken reactor building are not successful. Apparently there is no hope of stopping the reaction, or runaway reaction, except to flood the entire building since most of the equipment was irreparably damaged in last night's explosion.

Every article I read, regardless of scare tactic headlines, says that the experts predict that the systems are working as they should. The containment building housing the core blew, but the core itself and the containing system are holding. There are scads of articles found on google: japan nuclear reactor - Google Search

many within the last hour.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Here's a map of the projected radiation fallout

 

[skeptic]

I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.

I am not a nuclear fissioncist. But I am reading that the risk of a total meltdown and containment vessel breach is real and may occur within hours if last ditch efforts to flood the broken reactor building are not successful. Apparently there is no hope of stopping the reaction, or runaway reaction, except to flood the entire building since most of the equipment was irreparably damaged in last night's explosion.

Every article I read, regardless of scare tactic headlines, says that the experts predict that the systems are working as they should. The containment building housing the core blew, but the core itself and the containing system are holding. There are scads of articles found on google: japan nuclear reactor - Google Search

many within the last hour.

I am reading the same news that you are but I see nothing that indicates that the reaction has been cooled, and it makes no difference if the containment vessel is intact if you have a runaway reaction. Without coolant the vessel will melt.

 

[Annie]

Here's a map of the projected radiation fallout

While I couldn't get your link from the post, when I went to reply I could copy and paste.

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg

Now, is this the predictions IF it were to meltdown and there was no containment? Or is Australia saying this has already occurred?

 

[martybegan]

It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.

My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment.

Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.

I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.

I am not a nuclear fissioncist. But I am reading that the risk of a total meltdown and containment vessel breach is real and may occur within hours if last ditch efforts to flood the broken reactor building are not successful. Apparently there is no hope of stopping the reaction, or runaway reaction, except to flood the entire building since most of the equipment was irreparably damaged in last night's explosion.

There is no runaway reaction, as the criticality was stopped by the SCRAM. the issue is with residual heat. This could result in the melting of the core. The problem becomes the breach of containment, and the resulting release of radioactive gases.

What happened in chernobyl was a release of gasses along with particulates, the particulates resulting from the steam explosion flinging parts of the core into the surrounding area, and the resulting graphite fire. This was the source of the longer lived radionucleotides.

We would need an anlysis of what particles were relased by the gas venting to determine the health effect of the release. If it was mostly particles with very short half lives, then the issue is less than with long half life particles.

The risk of anything is real, the question becomes is the risk likely.

 

[martybegan]

Here's a map of the projected radiation fallout

While I couldn't get your link from the post, when I went to reply I could copy and paste.

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg

Now, is this the predictions IF it were to meltdown and there was no containment? Or is Australia saying this has already occurred?

I am calling bullshit on this map. First of all no one uses RADS anymore. Exposure is measured in rems, or sieverts

Rad (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second it lists no model used for the air disperal. it also does not give you the assumed particles for the doses given (the obsolete doses, mind you)

Third, why would austrilia be concerned about fallout heading to the US?

Finally, since this is a water reactor, there is a limited amount of solid material that could create "fallout". Chernobyl used solid graphite for neutron moderation, this was the particulate source for the fallout when the reactor blew up and burned.

 

[Annie]

I am not a nuclear fissioncist. But I am reading that the risk of a total meltdown and containment vessel breach is real and may occur within hours if last ditch efforts to flood the broken reactor building are not successful. Apparently there is no hope of stopping the reaction, or runaway reaction, except to flood the entire building since most of the equipment was irreparably damaged in last night's explosion.

Every article I read, regardless of scare tactic headlines, says that the experts predict that the systems are working as they should. The containment building housing the core blew, but the core itself and the containing system are holding. There are scads of articles found on google: japan nuclear reactor - Google Search

many within the last hour.

I am reading the same news that you are but I see nothing that indicates that the reaction has been cooled, and it makes no difference if the containment vessel is intact if you have a runaway reaction. Without coolant the vessel will melt.

Front page Yahoo:

Blast at Japan nuke plant; thousands missing - Yahoo! News

Among the most worrying developments was concerns that a nuclear reacter could melt down. Edano said Saturdya's explosion was caused by vented hydrogen gas and destroyed the exterior walls of the building where the reactor is, but not the actual metal housing enveloping the reactor.

Edano said the radiation around the Fukushima Dai-ichi plant had not risen after the blast, but had in fact decreased.

Three people being evacuated from an area near the plant have been exposed to radiation, Yoshinori Baba, a Fukushima prefectural disaster official, confirmed. But he said they showed no signs of illness.

Virtually any increase in ambient radiation can raise long-term cancer rates, and authorities were planning to distribute iodine, which helps protect against thyroid cancer...

Japan earthquake: Officials say nuclear catastrophe averted - CSMonitor.com

Japan earthquake: Officials say nuclear catastrophe averted

Fears of a nuclear meltdown in Japan have subsided after a reactor that was damaged in Friday’s devastating earthquake reportedly emerged intact from an explosion.
By Justin McCurry, Correspondent / March 12, 2011

...Some exposure to radiation

Tokyo Electric said four workers had suffered minor injuries in the explosion and were being treated in hospital. But Japanese TV reported that three people who were seeking refuge nearby when the explosion occurred may have been exposed to radiation...

Sea water used to cool reactor

The firm said it planned to fill the reactor with sea water to cool it down and reduce pressure, while officials said its core remained intact.

The International Atomic Energy Agency said it was urgently seeking details from Japanese authorities, adding that plans were being made to distribute iodine to local residents.

The incident could call into question Japan’s enthusiasm for nuclear power. The country’s 54 reactors provide 30 percent of its electricity, and there are plans to increase provision to 50 percent by 2030. But the industry has been plagued by accidents and allegations of cover-ups.

Anti-nuclear campaigners said the dangers of a serious accident remained.

“Fukushima remains under threat of a serious reactor meltdown,” said Jan Beranek, head of Greenpeace International’s nuclear campaign. “This would potentially create an iodine cloud, which could spread high radiation levels to both the environment and population over many tens of kilometers.”

And one would expect Greenpeace to say something good about a reactor?

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Here's a map of the projected radiation fallout

While I couldn't get your link from the post, when I went to reply I could copy and paste.

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg

Now, is this the predictions IF it were to meltdown and there was no containment? Or is Australia saying this has already occurred?

I am calling bullshit on this map. First of all no one uses RADS anymore. Exposure is measured in rems, or sieverts

Rad (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second it lists no model used for the air disperal. it also does not give you the assumed particles for the doses given (the obsolete doses, mind you)

Third, why would austrilia be concerned about fallout heading to the US?

Finally, since this is a water reactor, there is a limited amount of solid material that could create "fallout". Chernobyl used solid graphite for neutron moderation, this was the particulate source for the fallout when the reactor blew up and burned.

You'recalling bullshit on a link and using wikipedia as a source?

 

[martybegan]

While I couldn't get your link from the post, when I went to reply I could copy and paste.

http://img847.imageshack.us/img847/438/fallout.jpg

Now, is this the predictions IF it were to meltdown and there was no containment? Or is Australia saying this has already occurred?

I am calling bullshit on this map. First of all no one uses RADS anymore. Exposure is measured in rems, or sieverts

Rad (unit) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Second it lists no model used for the air disperal. it also does not give you the assumed particles for the doses given (the obsolete doses, mind you)

Third, why would austrilia be concerned about fallout heading to the US?

Finally, since this is a water reactor, there is a limited amount of solid material that could create "fallout". Chernobyl used solid graphite for neutron moderation, this was the particulate source for the fallout when the reactor blew up and burned.

You'recalling bullshit on a link and using wikipedia as a source?

Im using it to show the definition of a RAD, for something that simple wiki is perfectly fine.

You can also look at this document from the CDC, using the correct units, and stating that RAD has been replaced.

http://www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/pdf/measurement.pdf

A true radition release chart would show the amount released in curies most likely.

 

[skeptic]

ANNIE, I just checked google news and every third article says that the disaster is not averted, merely that the immediate risk of the explosion is averted.

Meanwhile three plants are widening evacuation perimeters. Two plants still have no cooling, the japanese nuclear oversight committee says one reactor has a breach in the containment vessel leaking cesium and iodine and the risk of a meltdown is still real. In fact some article say it is happening now.

The attempt to use saltwater as a last resort to cool the reactors is telling because the plants will have to be decommissioned due to corrosion once the reaction is halted.

The news is mostly served to avoid panic.

 

[martybegan]

ANNIE, I just checked google news and every third article says that the disaster is not averted, merely that the immediate risk of the explosion is averted.

Meanwhile three plants are widening evacuation perimeters. Two plants still have no cooling, the japanese nuclear oversight committee says one reactor has a breach in the containment vessel leaking cesium and iodine and the risk of a meltdown is still real. In fact some article say it is happening now.

The attempt to use saltwater as a last resort to cool the reactors is telling because the plants will have to be decommissioned due to corrosion once the reaction is halted.

The news is mostly served to avoid panic.

The use of seawater would indeed require these units to be decomissioned. Seawater is incredibly corrosive, especially when elevated in temperature like this.

This, if true, would indicate that they have basically given up efforts to maintain the reactors in some sort of working order for future repair or use.

If you look at the wikipedia article, it appears that the units in question were due for decommissioning anyway, with replacement by more modern units. It is yet to be seen if these units will now be placed into service. I would think they would, with added saftey features learned from this event.

 

[skeptic]

If you look at the wikipedia article, it appears that the units in question were due for decommissioning anyway, with replacement by more modern units. It is yet to be seen if these units will now be placed into service. I would think they would, with added saftey features learned from this event.

Pebble bed or bust. I keep hearing the word "fuel rod" and every time I do I wonder how old this technology is. If these are 30 year old reactors they need to be replaced.

We are still operating most of our 30yo reactors even tho they have exceeded their designed lifespan. Which is the definition of an accident waiting to happen.

Pebble bed seems like a reasonably safe/dangerous platform. There are still issues, but runaway reactions can't occur.

If we are gonna rely on nuclear power we need to upgrade.

 

[Big Fitz]

The entire country of Japan is a volcanic island so there really isn't any "safe and stable" place to build anything.

Especially a nuclear reactor.

Right, so therefore, nothing should be built until someone, somewhere, deems it 100% safe right?

Can't take any risks at all no matter what the reward right?

Actually, it's both a volcanic island and upward thrust of tectonic plates much like the Northern West Coast of North America is. The plate is subducted under Japan a few hundred miles off coast and Japan is the leading edge that sticks out over the subducted plate. All that remelted rock then flows up in giant tubes for magma to flow and burst out onto the surface based on planetary centrifugal force and specific density of the material melted being less dense than what is beneath it.

But again, you want to live in a 100% safe world, or do you want to live in reality. The twain shall not meet, and the world's not leaving.

 

[Big Fitz]

It strikes me as odd that a mere 10 months after the BP "disaster" forced the world to reconsider the risks of deep crust oil extraction a nuclear emergency in Japan threatens to force a reconsideration of our nuclear power platform.

My heart goes out to the Japanese. Their emergency services are strained to the limit, the nuclear emergency could not have happened at a worse moment.

Hopefully the seawater/boric acid scheme will work, if not start learning to spell Chernobyl.

I dont think this could be like chernobyl. There the explosion happened DURING a SCRAM, ( SCRAM that didnt finish due to the reactor starting to tear itself apart prior to SCRAM completion)

You also had a graphite fire a chernobyl which added most of the radioactivity spewed into the atmosphere. The BWR used in Japan doesnt have any graphite.

Gotta love them sodium cooled reactors and half-assed construction.

 

[Big Fitz]

Front page Yahoo:

Blast at Japan nuke plant; thousands missing - Yahoo! News

Love the headline. They make it look like the blast is directly related to the missing people. Assholes.

 

[Big Fitz]

If you look at the wikipedia article, it appears that the units in question were due for decommissioning anyway, with replacement by more modern units. It is yet to be seen if these units will now be placed into service. I would think they would, with added saftey features learned from this event.

Pebble bed or bust. I keep hearing the word "fuel rod" and every time I do I wonder how old this technology is. If these are 30 year old reactors they need to be replaced.

We are still operating most of our 30yo reactors even tho they have exceeded their designed lifespan. Which is the definition of an accident waiting to happen.

Pebble bed seems like a reasonably safe/dangerous platform. There are still issues, but runaway reactions can't occur.

If we are gonna rely on nuclear power we need to upgrade.

It's just modifications to the original design methodology created during the Manhattan Project.

Yes, every nuclear plant needs an upgrade. Now, if we can move the Freeznik econazis out of the way, we can get to that post haste and save this nation's energy grid before we fall apart.